The Organization was bad?

[OmniChaos]

Did Xemnas neccesarily play them? Xemnas was Xehanort before, and worked with the apprentices. The apprentices retained their memories. They knew what lengths Xemnas would go to in order to achieve knowledge, or his deepest desires. Giving himself willingly over to Darkness was an example of that. Why trust a man who would willingly become Heartless with helping you regain your own heart? Did they actually expect Xemnas to put his entire being on the line just for them? The apprentices most of all brought this on themselves. The other members didnt exactly know what Xemnas was like before.

I don't know... Do they trust him...? Xigbar doesn't seem to, seeing as how he eavesdropped on Xemnas in FM+...
Whether or not they trusted him, they still did as told... And with that, they still plaied Xemnas' little game...

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

I agree it makes sense but I think it also makes sense they'd make the plot a b!tch and awesome or something by ripping him out of Riku in KH3.
I don't need anybody in the Future section to tell me what and how to think, which is why I'm active there myself - I've my own views.
Until said clearly by the game, or I get a Nomura quote, I'd think he's still there, only dorment. You're welcome to quote if such a thing exists.

I see what you mean, I wouldn't mind a come back from Xehanort's Heartless, but he likely wouldn't have a keyblade, while Xehanort could maybe have one, thus why I'd like it be him, or MX...

What I am saying is that aside from saying it in pretty little speeches, Xemnas never showed any signs of care for the other nobodies...
Xemnas just played the Org like his pawns...

Not that I want to absolutely take his defense, but he is sensed to have no emotion, or really very very little of them. Considering his state, it's normal he doesn't show any sign of care of others nobody. When they're all there, he says he'll help them, when they're all dead, he cannot feel sad or angry. Basing on this, all what remains to him is his plan to get more power.

Also, on a side note, I believe to Xehanort = Terra + MX, and maybe + DS. Now, in this option I see this happening similarly, but not exactly the same, as how XH possessed Riku, it's to say Terra's Soul and Body + MX's heart. In this hypothesis, Xemnas would be basically the Nobody of Terra, with some of MX/DS traits maybe. Nevertheless, if it came to be true, it means than even unconsciously, Xemnas kept something of what made Terra, thus why I believe he was honest in wanting to heal all nobodies... This is purely speculative though.

Or whoever makes up Xehanort...

I thought about something like that, maybe MX in case Xehanort's heart is MX's, but in young form this time...

 

[Smile]

I see what you mean, I wouldn't mind a come back from Xehanort's Heartless, but he likely wouldn't have a keyblade, while Xehanort could maybe have one, thus why I'd like it be him, or MX...

I didn't mean he'd come back on his own, but that someone'd rip him out of Riku to fuse into the whole being.
:3 would be cool seeing Riku deal with it, especially seeing he effectively used Xehanort's Heartless' powers from CoM through most of KH2

 

[Tervenaq]

I didn't mean he'd come back on his own, but that someone'd rip him out of Riku to fuse into the whole being.
:3 would be cool seeing Riku deal with it, especially seeing he effectively used Xehanort's Heartless' powers from CoM through most of KH2

Would Riku then retain his keyblade? It's dark plus light, and if Xehanort's Heartless is expelled, the dark will be lacking...

 

[Smile]

Would Riku then retain his keyblade? It's dark plus light, and if Xehanort's Heartless is expelled, the dark will be lacking...

It's the other way around. Xehanort's Heartless didn't bring the Darkness into Riku's Heart when he possessed him, he managed to posses him because the Darkness was already there.
The Darkness is Riku's and Riku's only, they made enough of a point repeating that throughout the games.

 

[Tervenaq]

It's the other way around. Xehanort's Heartless didn't bring the Darkness into Riku's Heart when he possessed him, he managed to posses him because the Darkness was already there.
The Darkness is Riku's and Riku's only, they made enough of a point repeating that throughout the games.

Ah, I understand.

But it does suck for Riku he lost his Darkness powers at the end of KH2. Suck's bad...

What's weird is that you can still use Dark Aura in the final batlle with Xemnas. Especially when he had Sora in that energy orb.

 

[Smile]

Ah, I understand.

But it does suck for Riku he lost his Darkness powers at the end of KH2. Suck's bad...

What's weird is that you can still use Dark Aura in the final batlle with Xemnas. Especially when he had Sora in that energy orb.

That's because he didn't lose his Darkness - again, that's his own. That also means no one can take it away from him.

What happened in KH2 are two things -
1) Riku reverted back into his own Body, rather than looking like Xehanort's Heartless. It's debateable whether Xehanort's Heartless is still inside him or not.
2) Riku lost the ability to move to the Realm of Darkness. He still has his Darkness abilities, he just accepted the Realm of Light as where he belongs again.

 

[Anonymous]

Ugh, bottom line-
The org. has absolutely no character development, and there is absolutely no way to judge whether or not the org. was evil based on what very little we saw of them.

Kh2's plot line just fails miserably in comparison to the first.

...Although, I thought sora was an ass the way he killed them. ><

 

[Smile]

Ugh, bottom line-
The org. has absolutely no character development, and there is absolutely no way to judge whether or not the org. was evil based on what very little we saw of them.

I think we're giving them far too much credit and forget that they're Nobodies.
Namine was a fluke; Nobodies shouldn't be so developed because there is nothing to develop.

Kh2's plot line just fails miserably in comparison to the first.

Plot? What plot? I must've missed it between Sora singing in Atlantica and then going Hakuna Matata while scratching himself off of fleas.

...Although, I thought sora was an ass the way he killed them. ><

I thought the Organization were asses on more than one occasion in lengths that made them deserve what was coming to them.
I think we're even XD;

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

Nobodies have a personality. It's far enough to give them character development.

Plot? What plot?

The Organization needing KH, the revelation about Ansem being an heartless and an impostor, the Xehanort plot twist, DiZ being AtW, etc etc...

Sorry, I am just tired at the amount of hatred KH2 has since recently while without it KH plot around Xehanort wouldn't exist.

 

[Smile]

Nobodies have a personality. It's far enough to give them character development.

Have you ever tried writing a Nobody? The instant you try doing just about anything with them you realize you actually gave them a heart and poof - lost the concept.
Just about any and all character developments require everything KH says Nobodies by definition lack.
If a character turns to the worse, it means it was hurt - it needs a Heart for it.
If a character turns to the good, it means it cares - it needs a Heart for it.
There will be character development in the sense that we'll get to learn more about them, but our views of them mustn't change, simply because that would give them something they shouldn't have.

The Organization needing KH, the revelation about Ansem being an heartless and an impostor, the Xehanort plot twist, DiZ being AtW, etc etc...

Which consist of maybe 10% of the game with the rest of it being Sora being a moogle's b!tch and a rising Broadway star.

Sorry, I am just tired at the amount of hatred KH2 has since recently while without it KH plot around Xehanort wouldn't exist.

I don't doubt that.
It would've been nice to actually see all that plot in the game and not read it in Ansem Reports or have 10 minutes scenes of AtW explaining it all to Mickey or being forced to look it up in the novels.
The story is amazing; how it was displayed in the game is not.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

Have you ever tried writing a Nobody? The instant you try doing just about anything with them you realize you actually gave them a heart and poof - lost the concept.
Just about any and all character developments require everything KH says Nobodies by definition lack.
If a character turns to the worse, it means it was hurt - it needs a Heart for it.
If a character turns to the good, it means it cares - it needs a Heart for it.
There will be character development in the sense that we'll get to learn more about them, but our views of them mustn't change, simply because that would give them something they shouldn't have.

I am not a fanfiction writer, so I couldn't say. But they have a very very few amount of emotion, and it's enough to make them gets hurt or anything.

Which consist of maybe 10% of the game with the rest of it being Sora being a moogle's b!tch and a rising Broadway star.

I don't doubt that.
It would've been nice to actually see all that plot in the game and not read it in Ansem Reports or have 10 minutes scenes of AtW explaining it all to Mickey or being forced to look it up in the novels.
The story is amazing; how it was displayed in the game is not.

I agree, but I actually enjoyed the Gameplay and most fight in it, was a pretty fun game in my opinion and I even prefer it to KH1. I enjoy when piece of the plot are scattered in some kind of database as the Ansem's report or even in source outside of the game, it makes more the feeling of a great saga, looking at that it's why I consider KH2 superior overall to the first, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Smile]

I am not a fanfiction writer, so I couldn't say. But they have a very very few amount of emotion, and it's enough to make them gets hurt or anything.

Not by cold, harsh in-game definition. Nobodies have nothing. They know how to act, yes, but one can only act to a limit. True changes in character are neigh impossible.

I agree, but I actually enjoyed the Gameplay and most fight in it, was a pretty fun game in my opinion and I even prefer it to KH1. I enjoy when piece of the plot are scattered in some kind of database as the Ansem's report or even in source outside of the game, it makes more the feeling of a great saga, looking at that it's why I consider KH2 superior overall to the first, but that's just my opinion.

The game play was perfect, I don't think anyone's doubting that.
But when I realized that what I was watching was effectively Sora standing aside and watching Simba and Scar's fight, and keeping in mind there was the real game's plot happening somewhere else...
Well, let's just say I'm displeased.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

Not by cold, harsh in-game definition. Nobodies have nothing. They know how to act, yes, but one can only act to a limit. True changes in character are neigh impossible.

The game definition was given by people as Yen Sid or AtW, who were kinda biased against nobody. Nobody are still very mysterious.

I mean, I at the beggining agreed with the definition and all, that they only act like if they had emotions. Now, they can act, but even at the moment of dying? Why would Vexen act like being scared when he is on the verge of dying? There's no point in acting at that moment. And it's just one sample.
Another part of why I believe they have a very small amount of them is because of the way they live. Acting doesn't replace the effect of true emotion, and they couldn't live the way they do without even the smallest amount of it. For sample, they want to act like if they had emotions. Small issue is that the will to fake emotion cannot come from something else than an emotion. It's really... weird.

The game play was perfect, I don't think anyone's doubting that.
But when I realized that what I was watching was effectively Sora standing aside and watching Simba and Scar's fight, and keeping in mind there was the real game's plot happening somewhere else...
Well, let's just say I'm displeased.

Well, Sora was just 14 years old mentally and too much kind hearted... At this point, Maleficient and Pete were the 'threat', so it kind of makes sense...

 

[Smile]

The game definition was given by people as Yen Sid or AtW, who were kinda biased against nobody. Nobody are still very mysterious.

No, that definition was given by Xemnas and Saix, actually. They mocked Axel for going so far for Roxas, seeing how he couldn't feel anything and it was him clinging to an illusion.

I mean, I at the beggining agreed with the definition and all, that they only act like if they had emotions. Now, they can act, but even at the moment of dying? Why would Vexen act like being scared when he is on the verge of dying? There's no point in acting at that moment. And it's just one sample.

It's called survival instincts. You don't need coherent thought for that one, it's one of the basic definitions of a Living Being, Nobodies are, in fact - the Bodies.

Another part of why I believe they have a very small amount of them is because of the way they live. Acting doesn't replace the effect of true emotion, and they couldn't live the way they do without even the smallest amount of it. For sample, they want to act like if they had emotions. Small issue is that the will to fake emotion cannot come from something else than an emotion. It's really... weird.

It's called a 'phantom limb'. When people Heaven Forbids get an arm cut off, they can sometimes feel it's still there. They know it's not, but they feel it all the same, which leads many times to frustration and ache.
That's exactly how they describe a Nobody's Heart - as something they realize isn't there, something they realize is missing, and something they want back.
It narrows back down to instincts though, a simple reaction to the 'ache' from lacking a Heart.
And before you try no, that's not an emotion as an emotion sustained by the Heart. It's on a more physical level.

Well, Sora was just 14 years old mentally and too much kind hearted... At this point, Maleficient and Pete were the 'threat', so it kind of makes sense...

No it doesn't, because -
1) They were only part of the threat, from what we saw the Organization were a much larger threat, so much that Maleficent and Sora actually worked together against them.
2) We got to see more of them than we did of the Organization, thus creating that illusion.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

No, that definition was given by Xemnas and Saix, actually. They mocked Axel for going so far for Roxas, seeing how he couldn't feel anything and it was him clinging to an illusion.

And yet, he felt emotion, didn't he?

Just, look at this sample. Roxas has emotion because his other, Sora, is 'normal', it's to say not a heartless, right? Now, it shows that there's a link between the heart (sora) and the body and the soul (roxas). What if this link was true for every nobody? But because their other is either heartless or part of KH, they cannot feel emotion, Darkness makes forget everything etc considering what Sora said, and in KH there's something blocking the emotions.
Now, what brought back Sora from his heartless form? Kairi's feeling for him. Why do Axel have emotion? Because Roxas's feeling for Axel kind of free Axel's heart from its condition, not totally of course since it's way different, but it would explain why Axel has emotion.

Basing on this theory, every nobody has a very weak link to their emotion. It's just a theory, but it would explain a lot.

It's called survival instincts. You don't need coherent thought for that one, it's one of the basic definitions of a Living Being, Nobodies are, in fact - the Bodies.

Since when do survival instincts makes whine and beg the one killing you? Whining and begging come from emotion. Survival instinct don't make pop up suddenly emotions, it's not survival instinct who made Vexen kind of whining or Zexion totally scared by what happened.

It's called a 'phantom limb'. When people Heaven Forbids get an arm cut off, they can sometimes feel it's still there. They know it's not, but they feel it all the same, which leads many times to frustration and ache.
That's exactly how they describe a Nobody's Heart - as something they realize isn't there, something they realize is missing, and something they want back.
It narrows back down to instincts though, a simple reaction to the 'ache' from lacking a Heart.
And before you try no, that's not an emotion as an emotion sustained by the Heart. It's on a more physical level.

Yes it's physical, but if we have to apply true human's law to KH, then better to throw the game away because everything done in KH would go against what a human body is normally. For us, the heart is just there to make us live, in KH it's nearly everything.

And also, the phantom limb, yes sorry I try XD, is based on emotion in a way. It's not purely physical. It's psychological. And in KH, psy things are bound to the heart :/

No it doesn't, because -
1) They were only part of the threat, from what we saw the Organization were a much larger threat, so much that Maleficent and Sora actually worked together against them.
2) We got to see more of them than we did of the Organization, thus creating that illusion.

All what Sora saw was few nobody and 5 hooded people laughing at him, I wouldn't call this a threat yet.

 

[Smile]

And yet, he felt emotion, didn't he?

No, he didn't.

Just, look at this sample. Roxas has emotion because his other, Sora, is 'normal', it's to say not a heartless, right?

Again, no. Sora's Heart is amongst the strongest out there if not the strongest. It makes sense that his Nobody would 'remember' feelings - and put on the best show Organization Nobodies can put.

Now, what brought back Sora from his heartless form? Kairi's feeling for him.

Nope, that was her being a PoH and him being a Keyblade Master.

Why do Axel have emotion? Because Roxas's feeling for Axel kind of free Axel's heart from its condition, not totally of course since it's way different, but it would explain why Axel has emotion.

Setting aside Roxas's act of remembering feelings the best out of all the Nobodies as I explained above, with the whole issue of Roxas possibly having a Heart of his own, he's disqualified as an example until we know differently.
This also nullifies actually Axel yes feeling or not feeling - because Roxas is special beyond what we expected.

Since when do survival instincts makes whine and beg the one killing you? Whining and begging come from emotion. Survival instinct don't make pop up suddenly emotions, it's not survival instinct who made Vexen kind of whining or Zexion totally scared by what happened.

Dogs whine when you beat them. He was in pain and in immediate danger to his life.

Yes it's physical, but if we have to apply true human's law to KH, then better to throw the game away because everything done in KH would go against what a human body is normally. For us, the heart is just there to make us live, in KH it's nearly everything.

But then they separate the Heart - being effectively the Mind as in the consciousness - from the Body. That still holds.

And also, the phantom limb, yes sorry I try XD, is based on emotion in a way. It's not purely physical. It's psychological. And in KH, psy things are bound to the heart :/

Nerve ends still registering commands has nothing to do with the Heart.

All what Sora saw was few nobody and 5 hooded people laughing at him, I wouldn't call this a threat yet.

Scroll back a few pages and see why I think Sora saw more than enough. I wrote it repeatedly in this thread.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

No, he didn't.

Again, no. Sora's Heart is amongst the strongest out there if not the strongest. It makes sense that his Nobody would 'remember' feelings - and put on the best show Organization Nobodies can put.

Nope, that was her being a PoH and him being a Keyblade Master.

I think it was said it's her love who brought it back, someone else wouldn't have been brought but still helped.

Also, this means when Roxas had no memories in fake TT and felt happy, sad, etc, he was faking? It's impossible to fake something you don't remember, he did have emotions.

Setting aside Roxas's act of remembering feelings the best out of all the Nobodies as I explained above, with the whole issue of Roxas possibly having a Heart of his own, he's disqualified as an example until we know differently.
This also nullifies actually Axel yes feeling or not feeling - because Roxas is special beyond what we expected.

You see, acting and feeling are very different. They can act as much as they want, they won't feel like they have emotions, still Axel does.
Beside, Nobody have always be a mysterious subject, why so much wanting to deny they possibly could have had emotions?

Dogs whine when you beat them. He was in pain and in immediate danger to his life.

So, when you beat the dogs, he whine, looks scarred and begs you to stop? I never saw a dog reacting the same way Vexen did, or for that matter Zexion, they are obvious sample of Nobody displaying emotions.

Nerve ends still registering commands has nothing to do with the Heart.

Indeed, it has to do with your mental, in very big part. And I don't see why a nobody would have such symptom.

Scroll back a few pages and see why I think Sora saw more than enough. I wrote it repeatedly in this thread.

Yes, and I disagreed repeatedly, so well...

 

[Smile]

I think it was said it's her love who brought it back, someone else wouldn't have been brought but still helped.

Jiminy's KH1 journal states two very clear facts -
It was Kairi's feelings for Sora that brought him back.
It was Kairi being a PoH that let her do anything with these emotions.

I think that the 6 PoH's who effin held the Darkness at bay could bring him back had they tried.

Also, this means when Roxas had no memories in fake TT and felt happy, sad, etc, he was faking? It's impossible to fake something you don't remember, he did have emotions.

He had no Memories of Sora to begin with, but that's the point about Nobodies - those things are imprinted in them on a far deeper lever.
Call it 'genetic Memory' if you will.

You see, acting and feeling are very different. They can act as much as they want, they won't feel like they have emotions, still Axel does.

...he doesn't. He admits it himself. Roxas and Sora make him feel like he had a Heart. He's the first person to admit it was fake.

Beside, Nobody have always be a mysterious subject, why so much wanting to deny they possibly could have had emotions?

Because they're not mysterious in that aspect. They explained it quite clearly. No, they do not have feelings because feelings areonly in the Heart - that's what makes it a Heart to begin with.

So, when you beat the dogs, he whine, looks scarred and begs you to stop? I never saw a dog reacting the same way Vexen did, or for that matter Zexion, they are obvious sample of Nobody displaying emotions.

You never had people abuse dogs in your neighborhood then. Lucky you.
I had one for 15 years. When they're that beat up, they can't attack back, and they whine.

Indeed, it has to do with your mental, in very big part. And I don't see why a nobody would have such symptom.

Nope, phantom limbs is a very, very physical phenomena. It has to do with the electrical surges your mind sends out, it has nothing to do with a more complex thought process.

 

[Mr. Wilhelm]

Jiminy's KH1 journal states two very clear facts -
It was Kairi's feelings for Sora that brought him back.
It was Kairi being a PoH that let her do anything with these emotions.

I think that the 6 PoH's who effin held the Darkness at bay could bring him back had they tried.

Indeed, it's why I said with Roxas it works in a different way, he's not a PoH, thus his only effect is to modify slightly the state of Axel's heart wherever it is, and so allowing him to have emotions.

He had no Memories of Sora to begin with, but that's the point about Nobodies - those things are imprinted in them on a far deeper lever.
Call it 'genetic Memory' if you will.

Not to say, but it looks a little easy that way... He felt those emotions. Print whatever you want, it won't replace the true and yet, he really felt them as true, hinting to a never broking link between heart - body/soul IMO.

...he doesn't. He admits it himself. Roxas and Sora make him feel like he had a Heart. He's the first person to admit it was fake.

Because it is what others had convinced him of. Sometime you can be right, but if many people say you the contrary you'll think to be wrong. But millions of wrong wouldn't make one right.

Because they're not mysterious in that aspect. They explained it quite clearly. No, they do not have feelings because feelings areonly in the Heart - that's what makes it a Heart to begin with.

In KH1 it was explained quite clearly that Darkness are the incarnation of Evil, and yet in KH CoM and 2 you see another face of it...

Also, CoM made pretty clear that the memories reside in the heart. Didn't nobody have memories?

You never had people abuse dogs in your neighborhood then. Lucky you.
I had one for 15 years. When they're that beat up, they can't attack back, and they whine.

I saw few time, but generally the dog bitted... Still I see what you mean Also, a baby whine, without reason except the pain, same for the dog... But Vexen whined because he was scarred. Same for Zexion. How scared would be not an emotion?

Nope, phantom limbs is a very, very physical phenomena. It has to do with the electrical surges your mind sends out, it has nothing to do with a more complex thought process.

I don't know much, so I won't say, though I heard that most of this kind of things are linked to the psychologie, and sometime you 'heal' of those through pyschology.