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Something I've been wondering



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KeyofEvil'sBane

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I just beat 3D a couple days ago (now finally allowing me back into this section), and there was something I thought of that didn't quite make sense. Not sure if its a slip up on Nomura's part, or just me not completely understanding the Dream worlds, but here it goes:

Yensid laid out the qualifications of the exam as unlocking the 7 sleeping keyholes, and returning, with success resulting in the mark of mastery. Yet the moment they entered the dream worlds, when Riku sensed something amiss, he instinctively dove into Sora's dreams without realizing. So while Sora explored the sleeping worlds, Riku explored Sora's dreams of those worlds. Since he wasn't exploring the actual worlds, wouldn't that mean Riku never unlocked the 7 sleeping keyholes, thus should have failed the exam?

I could also go on about how Sora kinda got shafted after everything, but I feel like that's nitpicking a little bit.
(Also, are spoilers ok here now? I don't know how long its supposed to be)
 

Sign

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Spoilers are okay now. KHI spoiler bans only last 3 months after the final release.
 

JustSnilloc

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I just beat 3D a couple days ago (now finally allowing me back into this section), and there was something I thought of that didn't quite make sense. Not sure if its a slip up on Nomura's part, or just me not completely understanding the Dream worlds, but here it goes:

Yensid laid out the qualifications of the exam as unlocking the 7 sleeping keyholes, and returning, with success resulting in the mark of mastery. Yet the moment they entered the dream worlds, when Riku sensed something amiss, he instinctively dove into Sora's dreams without realizing. So while Sora explored the sleeping worlds, Riku explored Sora's dreams of those worlds. Since he wasn't exploring the actual worlds, wouldn't that mean Riku never unlocked the 7 sleeping keyholes, thus should have failed the exam?

I could also go on about how Sora kinda got shafted after everything, but I feel like that's nitpicking a little bit.
(Also, are spoilers ok here now? I don't know how long its supposed to be)

They were supposed to do it together and in a way, they sort of did...
 

ajmrowland

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Spoilers are okay now. KHI spoiler bans only last 3 months after the final release.

Yeah, but there will be people on here who havent played this story yet for a couple more months. And as I've said before, even if the site's rule were law, there's no definitive logical cutoff date for spoiler tags.
 

Sephiroth0812

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If thats the case, it seems kind of odd to give only Riku the title even though they both did it. And Sora ended up doing most of the work while Riku spent most of the game inside Sora just swinging his keyblade around

That had nothing to do with the Keyholes of sleep.
The conditions of the test were:
1. Reach the Realm of Sleep.
2. Learn the proper way to wield the Keyblade (aka gameplay-wise learn to use the Command Deck like TAV did in BBS)
3. Open seven sleeping Keyholes in order to gain the power to awaken sleeping hearts (which is in essence a power to "revive" someone if that heart is still connected to another).
4. Return to Yen Sid's tower.

Sora fulfilled conditions 1 to 3, but not 4 while Riku fulfilled all of them.
That's to say though, Sora failing to fulfill condition 4 wasn't his own fault, and Yen Sid did acknowledge that they would both deserve the title, but since Riku did something extra (the "icing on the cake" so to speak) by saving Sora he simply gained some extra points and therefore got the title.

Besides, if you recall the beginning of DDD, Sora doesn't care about having the title of Keyblade Master or not, he only agreed to take the test because Riku wanted to take it. Or to say it with his words: "just a formality".
Sora wants to help his friends and those in need, and he doesn't need the official title for that.
---

Riku did much more than just swinging his Keyblade around. As Yen Sid pointed out: Since Riku opened the seven keyholes inside Sora's dreams he's the one most suited to bring back Sora's heart itself, not to mention that it was he who took on the new Organisation alone at first and kicked Master Xehanort's ass while he was possessing his own younger self.
 

KeyofEvil'sBane

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I have no doubt that Riku deserved the title more after everything he had to put up with. However, I was under the assumption that in the Mark of Mastery exam, one person's success does necessarily equal the failure of the other. It just seems kinda unfair to not pass Sora because the Org. was riding his ass the entire time
 

Sephiroth0812

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However, I was under the assumption that in the Mark of Mastery exam, one person's success does necessarily equal the failure of the other. It just seems kinda unfair to not pass Sora because the Org. was riding his ass the entire time

That assumption is correct, as Eraqus stated in BBS. all participants may pass, only some or even none.
It depends on if the heart of the tested person in question has shown to be qualified for the title of Keyblade Master, which also involves to having control over your own darkness.
This is something that Sora was shown to be unable to. In fact, I forgot to mention in my previous post that Sora's "failure" is also linked to his partly overconfident approach to things.

It is said in the beginning (and in Coded) that Sora is the one with the deep connections to everyone and therefore the Key to saving the suffering people, but by overestimating his strength and endurance (Sora admitted that he heard Riku calling him not to follow the dream projections) he put himself in jeopardy.
He was not able to handle the pain of the hearts connected to him, which is something that Data-Naminé already warned about in Re: Coded:

Naminé in Re:Coded to Mickey and Data-Sora said:
These memories are too painful. Handled the wrong way, they could damage Sora's heart--even break it.

This is exactly what happened now in DDD, only with the difference that Xemnas, Xigbar and Young Xehanort apparently knew about the fact Naminé spoke about as well and decided to use it to their advantage.

As I said, Sora overestimated his own strength (and the endurance of his heart) when he choose to follow the dream-projections of the suffering people connected to him, and if Riku would not have been able to rescue him (or worse, if Xehanort had got him), all hope for Naminé, Xion, Roxas, Terra, Aqua and Ventus to be ever restored would be lost because Sora's the only one who can save them.
This has been confirmed by Blank Points, the regular Ending of Re: Coded and Ansem the Wise when he speaks with Riku at the end of DDD.
Yen Sid surely has also seen all these possible bad consequences that could have been if it wasn't for Riku (and Lea, who he specifically thanks for it) because of Sora overestimating his abilities, so him not yet granting him the title is justified when taking all factors into consideration.
 

KeyofEvil'sBane

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I guess I never really thought of it as Sora being overconfident. More of a mix of curiosity, and ignorance of what he was up against (which to be fair, not even Yen Sid, Riku, or Mickey knew until they stepped into the Org meeting room). Especially considering why he pursued the dream projections (wanting to pass along his message to Namine, then later to Roxas). But the confidence thinf makes sense as well.
 

JustSnilloc

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I guess I never really thought of it as Sora being overconfident. More of a mix of curiosity, and ignorance of what he was up against (which to be fair, not even Yen Sid, Riku, or Mickey knew until they stepped into the Org meeting room). Especially considering why he pursued the dream projections (wanting to pass along his message to Namine, then later to Roxas). But the confidence thinf makes sense as well.

Oh, he became outright cocky in KH2... What you said may be true for KH1, but by KH2, Sora thinks himself to be the very best, like no one ever was before him
 

Sephiroth0812

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I guess I never really thought of it as Sora being overconfident. More of a mix of curiosity, and ignorance of what he was up against (which to be fair, not even Yen Sid, Riku, or Mickey knew until they stepped into the Org meeting room). Especially considering why he pursued the dream projections (wanting to pass along his message to Namine, then later to Roxas). But the confidence thinf makes sense as well.

Curiosity and Ignorance were certainly involved as well, although you may argue that Ignorance is an even worse thing than overconfidence. It was not like that there were no warnings. In the Grid and in Symphony of Sorcery Young Xehanort gave away some pretty blatant hints and warnings regarding what was going on and Xemnas' speech was also not without a sort of invisible warning sign.
"You have been chosen" => Chosen by the silver-haired brigade of crazy darkness freaks is certainly not a good thing.
Heck, in Symphony of Sorcery Young Xehanort was even slightly surprised that Sora still had not caught on or even got wary about what was happening.
Sora wondered aloud about why Young Xehanort and Xemnas kept showing up, but he didn't think about possible consequences of that or remained on guard to look out for something amiss.
True, Sora didn't know what was up but unlike Riku, who sensed that something was wrong from the beginning (refer also to his conversations with Joshua in the second visit to Traverse), Sora didn't get any more cautious and observable to his surroundings.

I never intended to brand the reason why he followed the dream projections as not noble or with good intentions, but these intentions were deliberately used against him by the faction of the villains (as Xigbar pointed out: "thank you Sora's heart for pushing him right into our clutches). Sora knew the villains were lurking in the background and he heard Riku calling out for him, so as much as wanting to help Naminé, Roxas and the others is admirable and understandable, it was the wrong time to do so and Sora failed to realize that.

His heart was already weakened by all the mind-screw during the course of the game and Xemnas, Xigbar and Young Xehanort were actively working to cause more damage. Sora's heart could have most likely handled the pain of the suffering ones if his heart had been in normal conditions, but at that time it only served to put it more in jeopardy, effectively endangering those Sora wants to help more in the process.


Oh, he became outright cocky in KH2... What you said may be true for KH1, but by KH2, Sora thinks himself to be the very best, like no one ever was before him

Well, to be completely honest, after doing the main work in foiling both Ansem SoD's and Xemnas' plans Sora has some reason to be a bit more confident, and he also never claims that he was the sole one to do it.

The scene in the beginning of DDD actually shows it pretty well. After all he has already accomplished with his friends Sora just doesn't see the necessity in taking a test when he practically already had two field tests with the quests in KH 1 and KH 2.

He only starts to pay attention when Yen Sid mentions that a new power needs to be obtained and finally agrees to take the test because Riku wants it.
Of course, this IS a form of overconfidence and even ignorance, especially when we take into consideration that Yen Sid knows that the coming threat is bigger as Ansem SoD and Xemnas were alone during KH 1 and 2, yet Sora chooses to brush aside the proposals of the wiser and more informed party not even thinking about that the new threat may be bigger than the ones before.

Frankly, I wonder if Sora even only agreed to take the MoM in order to support Riku as a friend, as he made it very clear that he doesn't care about the official Master-title.
 
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KeyofEvil'sBane

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Which as it is, the official Master title hardly, matters, as all they really cared about was Sora and Riku gaining those new powers (which I know Riku currently possesses, and am pretty sure Sora has despite not having the title). However, I am kinda curious to see if Riku recieves any kind of bonus to go along with the Master title. Also, seeing as TAV had their armor as students of Eraqus, I'm wondering if Sora and Riku could get any "perks" to being students of Yensid (this is slowly turning into a thread for my wandering mind lol)
 

Sephiroth0812

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Which as it is, the official Master title hardly, matters, as all they really cared about was Sora and Riku gaining those new powers (which I know Riku currently possesses, and am pretty sure Sora has despite not having the title). However, I am kinda curious to see if Riku recieves any kind of bonus to go along with the Master title. Also, seeing as TAV had their armor as students of Eraqus, I'm wondering if Sora and Riku could get any "perks" to being students of Yensid (this is slowly turning into a thread for my wandering mind lol)

When combining the stuff we learned from BBS and DDD, the only "advantages" of the official Master title appear to be

1. The prestige which comes with it (Sora doesn't care about that since he's already a hero who saved the worlds twice).
2. The ability (and permission) to train new Keyblade Wielders and probably choose a fancy world to be your own headquarters (uninteresting for Sora since he wants to explore the worlds by himself and he's not really a teacher-type character.
3. Access to classified information only Keyblade Masters know (although DDD contradicts this point by Yen Sid explaining stuff like the nature of Keyblades, the existence of the X-blade and the Keyblade War to Sora and Riku before they are Masters) and be included more in strategic planning.
(Not really important for Sora as well, since even the more lighter stuff often already goes over his head. Riku and Joshua even joke about that in the second Traverse visit).
4. The ability to "create" new Keyblade Wielders by passing the wielding ability (not the Keyblade itself!) by performing the inheritance ceremony (this one has been shown to be related only to power level, not the title, as Terra could do it without being a "recognized" Master)
5. The ability to extract your own or other people's hearts (although like 4, it is questionable if this is really related to the Master-title or also only to skill and power-level).


Sora also opened seven sleeping Keyholes (in the actual sleeping worlds) so going by what Yen Sid said Sora should have that power as well.
Sora furthermore needs that power in any case since it is required alongside Ansem's data in order to restore Xion, Naminé, Roxas, Terra, Aqua and Ventus.

Did Mickey get any "perks" of being a student of Yen Sid (except some nifty magic powers)? ;P
As for the armors, it's ok for FanFics but in actual canon I would like if the armor and gliders (as well as Shotlocks) remain exclusive to TAV.
Sora and Riku are already copying many of their moves and giving them everything the other characters have make those characters lose much of their uniqueness in terms of abilities.
It goes of course also the other way around. For example I also wouldn't want Terra to get Dark Aura, that's one of Riku's signature moves and the new "Spark"-line of spells with the light crystals should probably also remain Sora-only (meaning Roxas, Xion or Ventus don't get them).
 

KeyofEvil'sBane

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To me at this point, it seems Sora is about where Terra was in BBS (minus the darkness). He's basically qualified enough to be a Master, and could probably perform the Rite of Passage Ceremony for someone. The only problem I could see there is if not having the ceremony performed for him somehow stops him from doing it for others

Also, although, it wasn't technically his at the time, Mickey did have that (forgot the name) charm thing in BBS that let him travel to worlds, so it wouldn't be out of the question for Sora and Riku to receive something like that, as using the Lanes Between without armor is a no-no
 

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Oh, he became outright cocky in KH2... What you said may be true for KH1, but by KH2, Sora thinks himself to be the very best, like no one ever was before him

Who would have thought that being a duel wielding punk kid, who defeated the Org., would consider himself the best there ever was. I think his cockeyness is understandable, but he also deserved to fail. Sora is kind of an idiot.
 

KeyofEvil'sBane

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I really don't think he considers himself the best. He's just confident that he and his friends together can handle anything thrown at them (which is kind of a major theme of the series). Also, the reason he fell into the Org's clutches was because he was chasing the dream projections of everyone tied to his heart. Roxas seemed to hint that he knew what was going to happen, so its possible the others knew as well. So, unless those were fake projections made by the Org, Roxas is kinda an asshole for letting that happen to Sora lol
 

Sephiroth0812

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To me at this point, it seems Sora is about where Terra was in BBS (minus the darkness). He's basically qualified enough to be a Master, and could probably perform the Rite of Passage Ceremony for someone. The only problem I could see there is if not having the ceremony performed for him somehow stops him from doing it for others

Also, although, it wasn't technically his at the time, Mickey did have that (forgot the name) charm thing in BBS that let him travel to worlds, so it wouldn't be out of the question for Sora and Riku to receive something like that, as using the Lanes Between without armor is a no-no

I don't think the ability to perform the ceremony hinges on if you have received it yourself, but more on if your heart is so strong and accomplished with the Keyblade that it can recognize other hearts worthy to gain the ability to wield.

Beside that, Sora practically indirectly got the "letter of recommendation" which the ceremony basically is already way back when he was just born.Due to the special connection he shares with Ventus' heart (and the sheer closeness of that connection) his heart gained the ability way back when he just forged the connection. That's also why Ventus' heart being located inside him does not matter anything on his ability to wield. As long as the connection between Sora and Ventus is intact (and I see no real reason why one of them would want to break the connection) there shouldn't be any problem.
When Xigbar claims that the Keyblade didn't choose Sora it is just more of his trolling, the blade itself did choose him in Hollow Bastion in KH 1 (for good).

Uh, you do remember that Mickey took the star shard without Yen Sid's permission and just ran off just like Ventus, don't you?
He wasn't assigned it or allowed to take it with Yen Sid's consent.
During this era gummi ships seem to be the state of the art, as in KH 1 and 2 Mickey is indeed said to have his own gummi ship apart from the one SDG use, we just never saw it.


Who would have thought that being a duel wielding punk kid, who defeated the Org., would consider himself the best there ever was. I think his cockeyness is understandable, but he also deserved to fail. Sora is kind of an idiot.
That actually was the somewhat redeeming feature: Sora also acknowledged that he didn't do that alone.
Sora may be an idiot in some fields, but as Ansem the Wise points out in the ending of DDD his heart is pure and child-like, which enables him to eventually gain the power to revive and recreate lost people, to which Ansem's data is a sort of manual.
It's just like that in order to be able to develop and accomplish that power Sora needs someone to watch his back, which is by now practically Riku's designated role.

I really don't think he considers himself the best. He's just confident that he and his friends together can handle anything thrown at them (which is kind of a major theme of the series). Also, the reason he fell into the Org's clutches was because he was chasing the dream projections of everyone tied to his heart. Roxas seemed to hint that he knew what was going to happen, so its possible the others knew as well. So, unless those were fake projections made by the Org, Roxas is kinda an asshole for letting that happen to Sora lol

While that may be true the fact that he overestimated his own resilience and went stubbornly forward despite knowing all the danger still stands.
Like already said before, the reasons why he chased the dream projections are understandable, that he choose to follow them with the enemy right on his heels was however an error brought forth by not thinking things through.
When did Roxas hint anything about that? The only things he ackknowledged were that while their roles (in terms of simple existing) could have been switched (y'know, if Roxas had decided to go serious in their battle in KH 2 and pull a Vanitas trying to take over as the dominant consciousness in the body) it wouldn't be the same result and that it has to be Sora who will tackle the next task, namely saving everyone.
That's something Roxas with his new grown heart could not have accomplished as Sora has more connections at hand and it is even more reinforced after Sora tells Roxas that he should be his own person.
Then Roxas repeats "That's why it has to be you.". It's the love Sora has for everyone tied to him that will make it possible, also stated by Ansem the Wise in the end.
So if Roxas "knows" anything at all (hey, his consiousness sleeps after all!), it is that Sora has the power to end his and the other's suffering, but not so much about the plans of the Xehanorganisation.
He's sleeping inside Sora, how should he know about anything that's going on on the outside? Not to mention the Xehanort's getting Sora wouldn't help him at all.
 

KeyofEvil'sBane

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I might have misinterpreted Roxas. I remember someone in the Org saying Roxas was the first candidate to become the 13th member of Club Xehanort Clones, before he rejoined Sora. I thought he might have been referring to that when he said "This could have been the other way around".
 

Sephiroth0812

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I might have misinterpreted Roxas. I remember someone in the Org saying Roxas was the first candidate to become the 13th member of Club Xehanort Clones, before he rejoined Sora. I thought he might have been referring to that when he said "This could have been the other way around".

The one saying that was Young Xehanort, but he also went on to explain to Riku that Roxas became impossible to be used because he developed an own sense of self too independent to be controlled, that's why he also counts as a traitor in Xemnas' and Xehanort's eyes.
Roxas also doesn't know anything about the true goals of the Organisation (only Xehanort, Xemnas, Ansem SoD, Young MX and Xigbar know at that point (Saix/Isa is up to debate)) and that he was designated as one of Xehanort's slaves, so he was clearly referring as to which one of them got to exist as an independent entity (if he had chosen to completely rebel he could possibly have taken control), but Sora then ups the ante by proposing that they should both exist independently, proving that Roxas' impression that it has to be Sora correct ("that's why it has to be you").

It's somewhat ironic, but being "trapped" (his newgrown heart, at least) inside Sora right now actually saved Roxas from a much worse fate, although his pain undoubtly had a part in further weakening Sora's heart.
 

KeyofEvil'sBane

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Which brings me to my next topic (sorry, another topic change). The org seems to have grown new hearts while they were nobodies (well most of them), possibly including Roxas. What I'm wondering is, if a heart can spring out of nowhere within a year or two, is it possible that Ven's heart could be healed to some degree?? After 11 years, something has to have happened with it
 
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