I had a Problem with Aqua that was solved with KH0.2 (Character-Wise)

[kaidoku123]

Okay, let me explain before you get angry...
I like Aqua, I think she is probably my second favorite (probably be my favorite after 2.8) female character in KH... but I thought that she was the weakest character in terms of development in the story...
Though she fought all the villains and did a lot of cool things and probably has the best base personality of the three, she never had the level of challenges that the other two characters went through
In short Aqua from KHBBS... was a Flat Character... she doesn't change and she doesn't learn? much as the other two.
I mean yeah, She had to fight her friends and taught to not to kill people for having darkness and had a hell of a time in the Realm of Darkness... but she REALLY didn't have as much of an Internal Challenge or Conflict as Terra or Ventus... or possibly every other playable character in the series (including Mickey Mouse, Data-Sora, and The Player Character from KHChi)
I mean Terra and Ventus had the Eraqus Confrontation Scene (Which is my favorite thing from that Game Alongside the Keyblade Graveyard Battle, Ventus vs Vanitas and Terra-Xehanort vs Aqua), which basically challenged everything they believed in (I mean, Ventus had his Master try to kill him, Terra had to see his Master try to kill his friend and then sees his Master get killed because of his mistakes and doubts....) through a confrontation with someone who they trusted willingly trying to do things towards them because of there belief. In addition Terra and Ventus had huge self doubts and flaws in stories (for Terra his own doubts about Eraqus, his own strength and darkness, and Ventus about his Friendship and his own identity), and they both sort of overcome it (Terra in the wrong method of forgetting all of that through anger and lashing out at someone while Ventus gets the confirmation about his own self and his friendship in the final battle at the Keyblade Graveyard and the whole Vanitas thing)
Aqua never gets this, her confrontation with her friends were done when they were possessed. She never doubts a word from Eraqus or even herself... until the ending (which mentioned above can be a good thing, since a lot of the characters in this franchise end up having problems because of self-doubts... but then again even freaking SORA had it) and was never there for the Eraqus Confrontation to challenge her belief and etc.
This is the reason why I always never understood why everyone always said that Aqua is the best of the three characters (I always believed that out of the three Ventus was cause his only one who went through a positive development... though this was BBS, the game where the Bad Guys out shines or darkens the good guys)

BUT
This is also WHY I love KH2.8/KH0.2... it gives Aqua that edge or challenge by first giving her a sense of doubt (the Mirror Scene in the Trailer and her seeing illusions of Terra in the Demo), and giving us hint that she is going to have to face some of her deeper problems (such as her feelings towards her own Failure at the end of KHBBS and possibly a confrontation with her own feeling that Light is Absolute with the whole thing involving the Kingdom Key D and with the secret ending from BBS, her having the KH1 Message of Overcome the Darkness through Light, Friendship and Love thing)
I freaking love this and I just CANNOT wait for the game, I mean turning a relatively flat character and giving her a more emotional edge... MAN
Plus this fits in with the whole theme of Kingdom Hearts 2, Coded and 3D about how you can't ignore the Darkness in you own heart as well as the pain you accumulated it, and how you shouldn't ignore it but you shouldn't also continually dwell on it, cause that could lead you to the darkness, and how you overcome it through the Light, Friendship and Love (Something which was sadly lacking in Terra and Aqua... well until the latter went into the Realm of Darkness)

 

[kirabook]

I understand where you're coming from and I am also excited to see Aqua's internet conflict, but I also feel we shouldn't expect every character to have internal dilemmas. Some problems are just strictly external and doesn't personally affect the person trying to solve it really.

 

[Midori]

Interesting. I believe Aqua's unwavering loyalty to her Master was actually one of her greatest flaws. In the Keyblade Graveyard, she reprimands Terra and asks "how will that honor the Master?" even after hearing about Eraqus trying to hurt Ventus. She doesn't question Eraqus. I understand why it's the way it is though. Terra's story had a rocky start, his darkness surfacing, failing a very important exam, feeling insecure about himself. That's why he lacked confidence throughout the game. However, he admits he was wrong, and eventually accepts that he has darkness, choosing not to be afraid of it. To me, Aqua's story was kind of a foil to Terra's because she's not having a personal conflict with darkness so she's not forced to question its power or her master's teaching (even though we know his teachings are quite radical and do more harm than good.). I personally think she's a much more interesting character because of this and I'm glad to see that she's going to get more development. I can't wait to see what will happen in 2.8.

 

[kaidoku123]

Okay, let me explain before you get angry...I like Aqua, I think she is probably my second favorite (probably be my favorite after 2.8) female character in KH... but I thought that she was the weakest character in terms of development in the story...Though she fought all the villains and did a lot of cool things and probably has the best base personality of the three, she never had the level of challenges that the other two characters went throughIn short Aqua from KHBBS... was a Flat Character... she doesn't change and she doesn't learn? much as the other two.I mean yeah, She had to fight her friends and taught to not to kill people for having darkness and had a hell of a time in the Realm of Darkness... but she REALLY didn't have as much of an Internal Challenge or Conflict as Terra or Ventus... or possibly every other playable character in the series (including Mickey Mouse, Data-Sora, and The Player Character from KHChi)I mean Terra and Ventus had the Eraqus Confrontation Scene (Which is my favorite thing from that Game Alongside the Keyblade Graveyard Battle, Ventus vs Vanitas and Terra-Xehanort vs Aqua), which basically challenged everything they believed in (I mean, Ventus had his Master try to kill him, Terra had to see his Master try to kill his friend and then sees his Master get killed because of his mistakes and doubts....) through a confrontation with someone who they trusted willingly trying to do things towards them because of there belief. In addition Terra and Ventus had huge self doubts and flaws in stories (for Terra his own doubts about Eraqus, his own strength and darkness, and Ventus about his Friendship and his own identity), and they both sort of overcome it (Terra in the wrong method of forgetting all of that through anger and lashing out at someone while Ventus gets the confirmation about his own self and his friendship in the final battle at the Keyblade Graveyard and the whole Vanitas thing)Aqua never gets this, her confrontation with her friends were done when they were possessed. She never doubts a word from Eraqus or even herself... until the ending (which mentioned above can be a good thing, since a lot of the characters in this franchise end up having problems because of self-doubts... but then again even freaking SORA had it) and was never there for the Eraqus Confrontation to challenge her belief and etc.This is the reason why I always never understood why everyone always said that Aqua is the best of the three characters (I always believed that out of the three Ventus was cause his only one who went through a positive development... though this was BBS, the game where the Bad Guys out shines or darkens the good guys)BUTThis is also WHY I love KH2.8/KH0.2... it gives Aqua that edge or challenge by first giving her a sense of doubt (the Mirror Scene in the Trailer and her seeing illusions of Terra in the Demo), and giving us hint that she is going to have to face some of her deeper problems (such as her feelings towards her own Failure at the end of KHBBS and possibly a confrontation with her own feeling that Light is Absolute with the whole thing involving the Kingdom Key D and with the secret ending from BBS, her having the KH1 Message of Overcome the Darkness through Light, Friendship and Love thing)I freaking love this and I just CANNOT wait for the game, I mean turning a relatively flat character and giving her a more emotional edge... MANPlus this fits in with the whole theme of Kingdom Hearts 2, Coded and 3D about how you can't ignore the Darkness in you own heart as well as the pain you accumulated it, and how you shouldn't ignore it but you shouldn't also continually dwell on it, cause that could lead you to the darkness, and how you overcome it through the Light, Friendship and Love (Something which was sadly lacking in Terra and Aqua... well until the latter went into the Realm of Darkness)

Yeah but this is Kingdom Hearts, every playable character had this internal struggle (Sora, Roxas, Ventus, Riku, Terra, Mickey, Data Sora, and Chi-Protagonist), its just weird and unfitting that Aqua doesn't have it (Plus the theme of KH is to Overcome such Internal Issues through the Will to Improve and Seeking the Power Beyond Yourself aka Friendship or Light)

 

[FFxStrife]

I understand where you're coming from and I am also excited to see Aqua's internet conflict

I'm afraid there's no wi-fi in the realm of darkness, it will be tough.

 

[Midori]

Yeah but this is Kingdom Hearts, every playable character had this internal struggle (Sora, Roxas, Ventus, Riku, Terra, Mickey, Data Sora, and Chi-Protagonist), its just weird and unfitting that Aqua doesn't have it (Plus the theme of KH is to Overcome such Internal Issues through the Will to Improve and Seeking the Power Beyond Yourself aka Friendship or Light)

I understand what you're saying, but I think Aqua being more independent is a good thing too. I think she realized she wasn't exactly being a great friend. Her heart was in the right place, but her tone was rather rude and her body language didn't help either (the "He was only..." while she averts her eyes). She probably reflects on this after Zack told her Terra didn't need to use darkness to save him, but this wasn't really touched upon in the game.

 

[Muke]

A very nice topic and I am here to talk about it!

but I thought that she was the weakest character in terms of development in the story...

Even with Kairi and Larxene around? Really?

Though she fought all the villains and did a lot of cool things and probably has the best base personality of the three, she never had the level of challenges that the other two characters went through

I feel like this problem exists for you because she doesn't have a rival like Ven and Braig do.
Actually, I disagree. A 'challenge' shouldn't only be chalked up to fight, fight, fight.
She struggled. She's been through some shit, trying to 1) get Ven back and 2) protect Terra. Her friends, the persons she loves the most, lost faith in her (in RG). She's been trying to protect them and what does she get? Terra and Ven's cockiness.

In short Aqua from KHBBS... was a Flat Character... she doesn't change and she doesn't learn? much as the other two.

I disagree. Look at the Aqua from the beginning and the end of BBS.
She has changed, notably. She didn't accept darkness at all at first, but slowly started 'tolerating' it and (imo) was starting to doubt her master even! She finally accepted her true title, the MASTER title.
Do you see her eyes in the RG scene? How she isn't sure about the Master himself?
"He was only…"

I mean yeah, She had to fight her friends and taught to not to kill people for having darkness and had a hell of a time in the Realm of Darkness... but she REALLY didn't have as much of an Internal Challenge or Conflict as Terra or Ventus... or possibly every other playable character in the series (including Mickey Mouse, Data-Sora, and The Player Character from KHChi)

It doesn't matter if it's internal or extern conflict, in my opinion. She had a lot of conflicts and was starting to doubt herself a liiiittle bit.
Aqua speaks her thoughts out, even if she is alone. "Can I do this? Should I fade into the darkness? I haven't smiled in ages… etc".

I mean Terra and Ventus had the Eraqus Confrontation Scene (Which is my favorite thing from that Game Alongside the Keyblade Graveyard Battle, Ventus vs Vanitas and Terra-Xehanort vs Aqua), which basically challenged everything they believed in (I mean, Ventus had his Master try to kill him, Terra had to see his Master try to kill his friend and then sees his Master get killed because of his mistakes and doubts....) through a confrontation with someone who they trusted willingly trying to do things towards them because of there belief.

And Aqua had to fight against her friend (or somebody who looked like her friend, at least).

In addition Terra and Ventus had huge self doubts and flaws in stories (for Terra his own doubts about Eraqus, his own strength and darkness, and Ventus about his Friendship and his own identity), and they both sort of overcome it (Terra in the wrong method of forgetting all of that through anger and lashing out at someone while Ventus gets the confirmation about his own self and his friendship in the final battle at the Keyblade Graveyard and the whole Vanitas thing)
Aqua never gets this, her confrontation with her friends were done when they were possessed. She never doubts a word from Eraqus or even herself... until the ending (which mentioned above can be a good thing, since a lot of the characters in this franchise end up having problems because of self-doubts... but then again even freaking SORA had it) and was never there for the Eraqus Confrontation to challenge her belief and etc.

'Even Sora' having it means nothing. You shouldn't focus on the main characters. Did Kairi have self-doubts?
She didn't start doubting stuff like Eraqus in the ending. It started when the Fairy Godmother talked to her and it went on from there.

BUT
This is also WHY I love KH2.8/KH0.2... it gives Aqua that edge or challenge by first giving her a sense of doubt (the Mirror Scene in the Trailer and her seeing illusions of Terra in the Demo), and giving us hint that she is going to have to face some of her deeper problems (such as her feelings towards her own Failure at the end of KHBBS and possibly a confrontation with her own feeling that Light is Absolute with the whole thing involving the Kingdom Key D and with the secret ending from BBS, her having the KH1 Message of Overcome the Darkness through Light, Friendship and Love thing)

I agree, I am glad about that, too!

Now I have a few questions for you. You keep saying the others had many doubts and conflicts etc, and I actually don't think that's true. Ventus literally has the same personality in the beginning and the ending.
Terra this, Terra that. It's why he annoys me so much. And Terra newer gets his shit together, let's be honest, lol.
So… could ya give some more examples?

Also, it is really disheartening to see that you newer talk about KAIRI. She is the most flat character in this franchise, and I will not accept this role to be passed onto ANYBODY ELSE. I would even say something if somebody called Terra flat, because he isn't (in comparison to Kairi).

I understand where you're coming from and I am also excited to see Aqua's internet conflict, but I also feel we shouldn't expect every character to have internal dilemmas. Some problems are just strictly external and doesn't personally affect the person trying to solve it really.

^^^^^^^

Yeah but this is Kingdom Hearts, every playable character had this internal struggle (Sora, Roxas, Ventus, Riku, Terra, Mickey, Data Sora, and Chi-Protagonist

I will stop you right there. It's wrong to say "every playable character", because I feel like we should talk about everyone and not categorize. Kairi.

its just weird and unfitting that Aqua doesn't have it (Plus the theme of KH is to Overcome such Internal Issues through the Will to Improve and Seeking the Power Beyond Yourself aka Friendship or Light)

I explained it above. ^^'
If Friendship and Light is your interpretation of that, Aqua literally was the embodyment of A friend trying to reach her other 2 friends.
?????

I'm afraid there's no wi-fi in the realm of darkness, it will be tough.

Please.

 

[VoidGear.]

I think Aqua trusting Eraqus without a single real doubt about his words is a problem that's luckily gonna change in the future. All this "follow your heart" thing Eraqus probably told her and Mickey tells her again is exactly what she should've done in BBS already instead of blindly following orders and destroying her best friendship(s).

 

[kirabook]

I'm afraid there's no wi-fi in the realm of darkness, it will be tough.

Darn you.

And darn my late night typing before bed.

Yeah but this is Kingdom Hearts, every playable character had this internal struggle (Sora, Roxas, Ventus, Riku, Terra, Mickey, Data Sora, and Chi-Protagonist), its just weird and unfitting that Aqua doesn't have it (Plus the theme of KH is to Overcome such Internal Issues through the Will to Improve and Seeking the Power Beyond Yourself aka Friendship or Light)

Weird, or a step forward? We haven't seen Mickey struggling with internal darkness either. It's nice to have a character with a more complex relationship with darkness. It doesn't (or didn't) affect her directly, but it affected her two most precious people. In trying to help them, she kind of made it worse for them and now she herself will probably struggle with darkness and self-doubt in the dark realm.

Her flaw was seeing the universe as only a black and white issue. She followed Eraqus's teachings that darkness is just bad and nothing good can come from it which resulted in distrust from the two people she cared most about. It wasn't until the end where she started listening to them (Allowing Ven to decide where he wanted to go instead of ordering him to go home without ever wondering WHY for example)

 

[VoidGear.]

Aqua is THE kind of character who lives and dies for others.
She did have a struggle with darkness - it just wasn't her own. She struggled with Terra's darkness by being torn between believing that he wasn't being controlled by it and fearing for the worst. By trying to talk reason into him and risking their friendship with it.
She struggled with Ventus's darkness in the form of Vanitas, both by fighting him and also assisting Ventus in fighting him in the very end.
Aqua is just not the kind of character to struggle for herself. Everything she does, she does for the sake of the people she loves.

 

[kirabook]

I was going to make the analogy of a family member trying to help another through a dangerous drug addiction. They themselves aren't doing the drugs, but it doesn't really matter, the enemy is the same. The addiction.

 

[VoidGear.]

I was going to make the analogy of a family member trying to help another through a dangerous drug addiction. They themselves aren't doing the drugs, but it doesn't really matter, the enemy is the same. The addiction.

Considering that darkness is viewed as something like a bad addiction most of the time, I think that comparison would fit quite well.

 

[kirabook]

So the true story of Kingdom Hearts is there is a balance, you must take drugs in moderation.

 

[VoidGear.]

So the true story of Kingdom Hearts is there is a balance, you must take drugs in moderation.

"I know now...without a doubt...Kingdom Hearts...is vodka!"

 

[kaidoku123]

A very nice topic and I am here to talk about it!



Even with Kairi and Larxene around? Really?


I feel like this problem exists for you because she doesn't have a rival like Ven and Braig do.
Actually, I disagree. A 'challenge' shouldn't only be chalked up to fight, fight, fight.
She struggled. She's been through some shit, trying to 1) get Ven back and 2) protect Terra. Her friends, the persons she loves the most, lost faith in her (in RG). She's been trying to protect them and what does she get? Terra and Ven's cockiness.



I disagree. Look at the Aqua from the beginning and the end of BBS.
She has changed, notably. She didn't accept darkness at all at first, but slowly started 'tolerating' it and (imo) was starting to doubt her master even! She finally accepted her true title, the MASTER title.
Do you see her eyes in the RG scene? How she isn't sure about the Master himself?
"He was only…"



It doesn't matter if it's internal or extern conflict, in my opinion. She had a lot of conflicts and was starting to doubt herself a liiiittle bit.
Aqua speaks her thoughts out, even if she is alone. "Can I do this? Should I fade into the darkness? I haven't smiled in ages… etc".



And Aqua had to fight against her friend (or somebody who looked like her friend, at least).

In addition Terra and Ventus had huge self doubts and flaws in stories (for Terra his own doubts about Eraqus, his own strength and darkness, and Ventus about his Friendship and his own identity), and they both sort of overcome it (Terra in the wrong method of forgetting all of that through anger and lashing out at someone while Ventus gets the confirmation about his own self and his friendship in the final battle at the Keyblade Graveyard and the whole Vanitas thing)
Aqua never gets this, her confrontation with her friends were done when they were possessed. She never doubts a word from Eraqus or even herself... until the ending (which mentioned above can be a good thing, since a lot of the characters in this franchise end up having problems because of self-doubts... but then again even freaking SORA had it) and was never there for the Eraqus Confrontation to challenge her belief and etc.

'Even Sora' having it means nothing. You shouldn't focus on the main characters. Did Kairi have self-doubts?
She didn't start doubting stuff like Eraqus in the ending. It started when the Fairy Godmother talked to her and it went on from there.

I agree, I am glad about that, too!

Now I have a few questions for you. You keep saying the others had many doubts and conflicts etc, and I actually don't think that's true. Ventus literally has the same personality in the beginning and the ending.
Terra this, Terra that. It's why he annoys me so much. And Terra newer gets his shit together, let's be honest, lol.
So… could ya give some more examples?

Also, it is really disheartening to see that you newer talk about KAIRI. She is the most flat character in this franchise, and I will not accept this role to be passed onto ANYBODY ELSE. I would even say something if somebody called Terra flat, because he isn't (in comparison to Kairi).


^^^^^^^


I will stop you right there. It's wrong to say "every playable character", because I feel like we should talk about everyone and not categorize. Kairi.


I explained it above. ^^'
If Friendship and Light is your interpretation of that, Aqua literally was the embodyment of A friend trying to reach her other 2 friends.
?????


Please.

what I meant was that Aqua was the weakest playable character in the series (Sorry I phrased it wrong)

 

[Muke]

What? By no means was Aqua weak though. Do you mean personality-wise?

 

[Luxu]

What? By no means was Aqua weak though. Do you mean personality-wise?

Aqua did physically weak hits making you depend a lot more on magic, but she was a strong character overall. Not as fast as Ven or as strong as Terra, but still good and strong...Now I know where Sora gets his style from!

 

[Muke]

Aqua did physically weak hits making you depend a lot more on magic, but she was a strong character overall. Not as fast as Ven or as strong as Terra, but still good and strong...Now I know where Sora gets his style from!

That's just gameplay. She is very strong~
Weak, imo is really if you can't do any significant damage

 

[VoidGear.]

Aqua did physically weak hits making you depend a lot more on magic, but she was a strong character overall. Not as fast as Ven or as strong as Terra, but still good and strong...Now I know where Sora gets his style from!

You can't really compare her gameplay-strength to her being a weak character.
Besides, that's entirely a gameplay-problem games like 3D had as well. The keyblade basically felt like a toothpick. Only thing doing serious damage were abilities.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Aqua can hit really hard with physical attacks, unlike Terra with magic.

(They've failed so hard with Terra as a character in that game. His strong point can be achieved by the other two, and his weak points are hard or impossible to compensate.)