Birth by Sleep Consensus.

[skyfoxx]

From what I can tell, most "empty-world" criticisms stem from Disney worlds like Castle of Dreams and Olympus Coliseum, where there are odd scenes with no crowd and empty buildings. Never in any of the worlds do you just find NPC's just hanging out. And while this does detract from the experience some, I think that Nomura was wise not to go the KH2 route and add too many cameos and relatively pointless characters.

Oooohhhh, yeah I remember those. Yeah, they kind of bugged me... but I just learned to find them hilarious and make jokes along the way, so in a strange way, adding no NPCs became a "postitive" to me.

 

[Ehres]

Ahem, if you would kindly read the thread again you will see that you are assuming I'm comparing Birth by Sleep to KH1/2/Days/CoM/whatever when I never made mention of that.

IIRC I named this thread "BIRTH BY SLEEP CONSENSUS" a.k.a. "WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BIRTH BY SLEEP NOT INCLUDING KINGDOM HEARTS, KINGDOM HEARTS CHAIN OF MEMORIES, KINGDOM HEARTS 2, KINGDOM HEARTS 358/2 DAYS OR KINGDOM HEARTS CODED".

I did not realise "Birth by Sleep" was synonymous with "Kingdom Hearts 1".

 

[skyfoxx]

Ahem, if you would kindly read the thread again you will see that you are assuming I'm comparing Birth by Sleep to KH1/2/Days/CoM/whatever when I never made mention of that.

IIRC I named this thread "BIRTH BY SLEEP CONSENSUS" a.k.a. "WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BIRTH BY SLEEP NOT INCLUDING KINGDOM HEARTS, KINGDOM HEARTS CHAIN OF MEMORIES, KINGDOM HEARTS 2, KINGDOM HEARTS 358/2 DAYS OR KINGDOM HEARTS CODED".

I did not realise "Birth by Sleep" was synonymous with "Kingdom Hearts 1".

I know you're talking about "Birth By Sleep." But a lot of your complaints were complaints of things that happen in every KH game ever so it seems odd why you would hate BBS for doing something but when another game does it, it's suddenly okay :/

 

[gelandporn]

Hello, I'm Kingdom Hearts 1 and I'll make you go around countless worlds - empty worlds, mind you - and look for your friend, Riku. When you find him in Ye Olde Hollow Bastion, you'll confront him and then like the pussy you are, you'll let them swan off and get themselves even deeper into Shit Creek. You will then spend the remainder of my empty contents randomly hopping from world to world before - on an off-chance - a pedophile attempts to kill you.

The end.

Hello, I'm Chain of Memories and I'll make you go around countless rooms- empty rooms, mind you - and look for your friend, Riku, again. When you think you find them, but it's actually their clone, in Ye Olde Castle Oblivion, you'll confront them and then like the pussy you are, you'll let them swan off and get themselves even deeper into Shit Creek. You will then spend the remainder of my empty contents randomly hopping from room to room before - on an off-chance - the clone tries to kill you, and yet another pedophile tries as well.

The end.

Hello, I'm Kingdom Hearts II and I'll make you go around countless worlds - empty worlds, mind you - and look for your friends, Riku AND Kairi. When you find them in Ye Olde World That Never Was, you'll confront them and you'll all swan off and get even deeper into Shit Creek. You will then spend the remainder of my empty contents randomly hopping from boss to boss before - on an off-chance - yet another pedophile tries to kill you.

The end.

Hello, I'm 358/2 Days and I'll make you go around countless worlds - empty worlds, mind you - and look for your friend, Xion. When you find her in Ye Olde Twilight Town, you'll confront them and then like the pussy you are, you'll let them swan off and get themselves even deeper into Shit Creek. You will then spend the remainder of my empty contents randomly hopping from world to world before - on an off-chance - she pretends to try to kill you.

The end.

Yeah.

Ahem, if you would kindly read the thread again you will see that you are assuming I'm comparing Birth by Sleep to KH1/2/Days/CoM/whatever when I never made mention of that.

IIRC I named this thread "BIRTH BY SLEEP CONSENSUS" a.k.a. "WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BIRTH BY SLEEP NOT INCLUDING KINGDOM HEARTS, KINGDOM HEARTS CHAIN OF MEMORIES, KINGDOM HEARTS 2, KINGDOM HEARTS 358/2 DAYS OR KINGDOM HEARTS CODED".

I did not realise "Birth by Sleep" was synonymous with "Kingdom Hearts 1".

The idea is that you would have noticed the pattern some time within the past eight years.

From what I can tell, most "empty-world" criticisms stem from Disney worlds like Castle of Dreams and Olympus Coliseum, where there are odd scenes with no crowd and empty buildings. Never in any of the worlds do you just find NPC's just hanging out. And while this does detract from the experience some, I think that Nomura was wise not to go the KH2 route and add too many cameos and relatively pointless characters.

Well, it would be great to have more NPCs, though there's only so much they can do with certain Disney worlds.
But that doesn't let them off the hook. I mean, would it kill them to create an audience, for once?

 

[Ehres]

what do some people not understand about "not making comparisons but looking at bbs as a standalone game and actually having - dread the thought - potential in terms of intricacy/cleverness of plot"

 

[skyfoxx]

But that doesn't let them off the hook. I mean, would it kill them to create an audience, for once?

I will agree here. I mean, in LoD the outside palace was EMPTY until suddenly you defeat Shan-Yu. Then there's suddenly a crowd. Granted they're just sprites, but it still works. If they just used sprites on OC, I would've accepted it. If you aren't going to give a visual representation, don't bother giving them a "cheer" sound effect.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that some bosses in OC involve getting on the audience chairs... but even then, it's still not very excusable but whatever.

what do some people not understand about "not making comparisons but looking at bbs as a standalone game and actually having - dread the thought - potential in terms of intricacy/cleverness of plot"

I'm sorry but the reason you gave about the "plot" could've applies to ALL KH games. You gave BBS a "mediocre" because of "story." And the way you describe the story is something that described the entire KH series. Does that mean you think the whole series is "mediocre"? If so, why are you even on these forums? Let alone a MOD at these forums...

 

[Chuman]

I will agree here. I mean, in LoD the outside palace was EMPTY until suddenly you defeat Shan-Yu. Then there's suddenly a crowd. Granted they're just sprites, but it still works. If they just used sprites on OC, I would've accepted it. If you aren't going to give a visual representation, don't bother giving them a "cheer" sound effect.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that some bosses in OC involve getting on the audience chairs... but even then, it's still not very excusable but whatever.



I'm sorry but the reason you gave about the "plot" could've applies to ALL KH games. You gave BBS a "mediocre" because of "story." And the way you describe the story is something that described the entire KH series. Does that mean you think the whole series is "mediocre"? If so, why are you even on these forums? Let alone a MOD at these forums...

You deserve a thumbs up for that!

 

[Ehres]

No, it just means - as the thread of the title indicates - that I think Birth by Sleep is mediocre. There's no reason why anyone should be using comparisons with other games as a means to prop BbS up a little more. It's a mediocre game within itself and that is my opinion on it.

Actually, I'm head of site staff. News reporting - I'm 'Sol' on the front page so I will take many due thanks for the hard work I've put into the site, thanks - is what I do now that I've retired from content writing along with fixing the site up here and there and uploading images and translating stuff.

So, yeah.

 

[skyfoxx]

No, it just means - as the thread of the title indicates - that I think Birth by Sleep is mediocre. There's no reason why anyone should be using comparisons with other games as a means to prop BbS up a little more. It's a mediocre game within itself and that is my opinion on it.

Whatever you say...

 

[gelandporn]

what do some people not understand about "not making comparisons but looking at bbs as a standalone game and actually having - dread the thought - potential in terms of intricacy/cleverness of plot"

No one is going to review Ghostbusters 2 without stating how it compares to Ghostbusters, even if the story can hold on its own.
If you're making complaints about BbS that have been present in the series since day 1, that sort of stands out.

Mainly, it just begs the question of why you've stayed with the series (This is not one of those, "WHY ARE YOU ON KINGDOM HEARTS INSIDER IF YOU DON'T LIKE KINGDOM HEARTS" posts). By your standards, these games must presumably be pretty mediocre, so it's kind of hard to imagine playing every game in a mediocre series.

Actually, I'm head of site staff. News reporting - I'm 'Sol' on the front page so I will take many due thanks for the hard work I've put into the site, thanks - is what I do now that I've retired from content writing along with fixing the site up here and there and uploading images and translating stuff.

And I respect that, seriously. But it doesn't have anything to do with this.

 

[Evello]

As a whole, I don't think the KH1 comparisons were directed at your criticism of BbS' story, Lucius. They were directed at other people who view KH1's story as brilliant while condemning BbS for its story in the same breath. In that case, there is a very good reason to compare the games, and the comparisons show that pretty much the whole series shares a basic story structure so no game is vastly inferior to another.

In your case, if you think that the series itself has a problem with simple plots, then there is no reason to compare anything. And I'm actually tempted to agree with you, though I don't think it warrants lowering BbS' score by as much as you did.

Also, for the record, anyone can make a game's plot sound dumb if they summarize it to the degree that you did. That proves absolutely nothing about the plot's simplicity or stupidity. Following your lead, I can bash any RPG's story. ANY, regardless of how good it is.

 

[Ehres]

Whatever you say...

Glad you agree with me.

No one is going to review Ghostbusters 2 without stating how it compares to Ghostbusters, even if the story can hold on its own.
If you're making complaints about BbS that have been present in the series since day 1, that sort of stands out.

Oh, I absolutely understand that, but my point is that this game has had five years to grow. In those five years they could've developed the story and characters and involvement so much more than they did. The final product was pretty much a boring "run through this world, kill some Unversed, have a few arguments with my friends and then die or something".

I must stress that I say story in the sense of involvement and attachment, not the hard facts that the game gave us (facts being explanations for later events in the series). I never connected with any of the characters in the story apart from Terra. Everyone else was either completely unlikeable or just boring and forgettable. But even within Terra's scenario, I was only into the character, not the events that happened to him (probably because it was pretty obvious what was going to happen to him) and most of all, the delivery of those events. Did I have a ballin' time with Cinderella? Not really. Did I enjoy myself with Dr. Jumba? Not at all. I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Mainly, it just begs the question of why you've stayed with the series (This is not one of those, "WHY ARE YOU ON KINGDOM HEARTS INSIDER IF YOU DON'T LIKE KINGDOM HEARTS" posts). By your standards, these games must presumably be pretty mediocre, so it's kind of hard to imagine playing every game in a mediocre series.

I used to be really into the series - a proper Kingdom Hearts geek - but then I guess I just outgrew it. Or rather, it... un-grew me? Kingdom Hearts II was a let-down, in my opinion, since it became really dumb and overly cheesy, and it was at this point that I switched off, more or less. However, I was hyped for Birth by Sleep having seen all the news and scans and whatnot, so I wouldn't say my disappointment in the game is unwarranted.

But for the record: yes, I do think this series has become very mediocre.

And I respect that, seriously. But it doesn't have anything to do with this.

Sorry, that was to skyfoxx.

As a whole, I don't think the KH1 comparisons were directed at your criticism of BbS' story, Lucius. They were directed at other people who view KH1's story as brilliant while condemning BbS for its story in the same breath. In that case, there is a very good reason to compare the games, and the comparisons show that pretty much the whole series shares a basic story structure so no game is vastly inferior to another.

But just because there are predecessors to Birth by Sleep doesn't mean that Birth by Sleep has to dumb itself down to those levels. As I said earlier in this post, it had five years to bloom and it just ended up being really quite boring. :/

In your case, if you think that the series itself has a problem with simple plots, then there is no reason to compare anything. And I'm actually tempted to agree with you, though I don't think it warrants lowering BbS' score by as much as you did.

But that's just personal opinion. I expected something intelligent, one of those moments where you uncover something and you're shocked - one of those things you'd never have guessed (a good example of my desire for this game to be intricate was my hope that Vanitas would perhaps be Braig) - but I didn't get that. I know I probably set myself up for it, but all I had were high hopes for the game.

Also, for the record, anyone can make a game's plot sound dumb if they summarize it to the degree that you did. That proves absolutely nothing about the plot's simplicity or stupidity. Following your lead, I can bash any RPG's story. ANY, regardless of how good it is.

But that is the plot, lmao.

 

[skyfoxx]

my hope that Vanitas would perhaps be Braig

...I'm sorry but that would've just been stupid. -_-

 

[Ehres]

...I'm sorry but that would've just been stupid. -_-

Eh, not really. Braig receiving his scars could have been from some sort of conflict with TAV - or equally another important character - had he been Vanitas. Certainly would have given him a bit more oomph in terms of his character and his back story and his ambitions, but I suppose Nomura might have something up his sleeve concerning Braig/Xigbar.

 

[skyfoxx]

Eh, not really. Braig receiving his scars could have been from some sort of conflict with TAV - or equally another important character - had he been Vanitas. Certainly would have given him a bit more oomph in terms of his character and his back story and his ambitions, but I suppose Nomura might have something up his sleeve concerning Braig/Xigbar.

You're telling me that Braig would start out as someone with Sora's voice, Riku's battle stance and a keyblade would end up becoming a drunk pirate surfer nobody with guns? I don't think so.

 

[Ehres]

Sorry, I should have said I was disregarding those factors.

But what does this have to do with anything? You're just sounding like you're picking a fight now.

 

[skyfoxx]

You're just sounding like you're picking a fight now.

Not really. :/

 

[Ehres]

I wonder if you'd have been lovey dovey with me had I given Birth by Sleep a good rating.

 

[skyfoxx]

I wonder if you'd have been lovey dovey with me had I given Birth by Sleep a good rating.

No I wouldn't. You thinking Vanitas would look like Braig was stupid no matter what. That's like believing Vanitas would look like Donald Duck.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

...I'm sorry but that would've just been stupid. -_-

No more stupid than Vanitas looking like Sora...