A Question about Silmarils

[Aqua]

Note: This will probably make no sense to anyone who has not read the Silmarillion, by J.R.R. Tolkien. Also, it discusses the plot of the story, so if you do not want any of the plot spoiled if you have not read the book do not read the rest of this post.


Yavanna, one of the Valar (powerful spirits who govern the world of Arda), brought to life the two Trees of light, Telperion and Laurelin. The light of these was captured in the gems called the Silmarils by Feanor of the Noldor, and after Morgoth (Melkor) destroyed the two Trees they were the only uncorrupted source of this light remaining. Now, when the Valar request that Feanor give them the Silmarils so they could try to restore the trees, which were his greatest work, in my opinion they seem to act is if they have a claim to them, because the light in them came from the Trees, which were Yavanna's creation. Now, I am not condoning any of the awful acts Feanor went on to perform after Morgoth stole the Silmarils as well, and it would have been good of Feanor to give them the Silmarils; yet I am inclined to think that the Valar's claim to the Silmarils is a little shaky. Yes, Yavanna created the Trees which produced the light that Feanor captured within the gems. However, once light is given off, you cannot get it back. So, the way I see it, Yavanna created the Trees to give light and share it with the world. In a sense, then, this light was a gift to Feanor, and he chose to capture it in the Silmarils. If he did not do that, the Valar would not have had access to the light at all. As a result, my opinion is that the Silmarils belonged completely to Feanor, to give or not to give, and although the Valar did give him a choice about giving them away, I do not think that some (namely Tulkas), should have pressured him as they did. The only way possible I think they could have a stronger claim to the Silmarils is that they are the servants of Eru Illuvatar as governors of Arda, and Eru created them, all of Arda, and everything in Arda including Feanor himself and all the things used in the construction of the Silmarils.

Does anyone who has read this book have opinions on the subject? This is just the impression I get, and I would like to hear other thoughts.

 

[Square Ninja]

Oh wow...someone on this forum that has actually read The Silmarilion? I wish I had that kind of time and diligence when it comes to reading.

 

[Aqua]

Yeah, it is a hard book to get into. I took me a long time to read it. It can be hard to follow with all the naration in the story. Yet, my interest in kindled after reading a summary in a Tolkien encyclopedia, and keeping the summary in the back of my head made the plot easier to follow. It is now one of my favorite books.

 

[Just as Planned]

Oh wow...someone on this forum that has actually read The Silmarilion? I wish I had that kind of time and diligence when it comes to reading.

I remember when I tried reading Red Rabbit by Tom Clancy.

Unnnnnnnnnghhhhhh the character bombardment

 

[Enchanted Rose]

Note: This will probably make no sense to anyone who has not read the Silmarillion, by J.R.R. Tolkien. Also, it discusses the plot of the story, so if you do not want any of the plot spoiled if you have not read the book do not read the rest of this post.


Yavanna, one of the Valar (powerful spirits who govern the world of Arda), brought to life the two Trees of light, Telperion and Laurelin. The light of these was captured in the gems called the Silmarils by Feanor of the Noldor, and after Morgoth (Melkor) destroyed the two Trees they were the only uncorrupted source of this light remaining. Now, when the Valar request that Feanor give them the Silmarils so they could try to restore the trees, which were his greatest work, in my opinion they seem to act is if they have a claim to them, because the light in them came from the Trees, which were Yavanna's creation. Now, I am not condoning any of the awful acts Feanor went on to perform after Morgoth stole the Silmarils as well, and it would have been good of Feanor to give them the Silmarils; yet I am inclined to think that the Valar's claim to the Silmarils is a little shaky. Yes, Yavanna created the Trees which produced the light that Feanor captured within the gems. However, once light is given off, you cannot get it back. So, the way I see it, Yavanna created the Trees to give light and share it with the world. In a sense, then, this light was a gift to Feanor, and he chose to capture it in the Silmarils. If he did not do that, the Valar would not have had access to the light at all. As a result, my opinion is that the Silmarils belonged completely to Feanor, to give or not to give, and although the Valar did give him a choice about giving them away, I do not think that some (namely Tulkas), should have pressured him as they did. The only way possible I think they could have a stronger claim to the Silmarils is that they are the servants of Eru Illuvatar as governors of Arda, and Eru created them, all of Arda, and everything in Arda including Feanor himself and all the things used in the construction of the Silmarils.

Does anyone who has read this book have opinions on the subject? This is just the impression I get, and I would like to hear other thoughts.

To be honest, I agree with you.

I think the treatment of Feanor throughout the novel was way too severe, and just over the top at points (his exile for example) considering that he was the creator of the Silmarils. I don't think he can be condemned for his actions, especially being somewhat manipulated by Melkor.

Feanor DOES have a stronger claim, as it states in the book that none of the Valar (even Aule) could have produced the Silmarils. Also, some of HIS essence went into the making of them.

 

[Aqua]

To be honest, I agree with you.

I think the treatment of Feanor throughout the novel was way too severe, and just over the top at points (his exile for example) considering that he was the creator of the Silmarils. I don't think he can be condemned for his actions, especially being somewhat manipulated by Melkor.

Feanor DOES have a stronger claim, as it states in the book that none of the Valar (even Aule) could have produced the Silmarils. Also, some of HIS essence went into the making of them.

It is nice to know that someone agrees with me on this. I have been debating this for a long time, but at times I have found it hard to think badly about the Valar, who are portrayed as serving Illuvatar and as being good. Yet, I have always thought Feanor was treated unfairly when they tried to make him give up the Silmarils. However, as the fall of Melkor/Morgoth and other Maiar such as Sauron shows, they are not all perfect; so I guess it may not be beyond their natures to deal somewhat harshly with Feanor involving the Silmarils.

 

[Enchanted Rose]

lol, well I really liked the character of Feanor, so I supposed I'm somewhat biased in interpreting everything from his point of view.

Have you perchance read Unfinished Tales?

 

[Aqua]

Well, biased or not, we both agree he at some point was treated unfairly. Also, I have read Unfinished Tales, but it has been a while, so I do not remember everything. Also, I have read parts of the Book of Lost Tales, and I have also read the Lay of Leithian from the Lays of Beleriand. I want to get the new Children of Hurin book. What books have you read?

 

[Hollow Bastion]

It's been so long since I last read The Silmarillion. I do know that while I read it I felt sympathy for Feanor. It seemed almost the Valar were simply toting around their higher status.

I've read some of Unfinished Tales, The Shaping of Middle Earth, and The Book of Lost Tales (1 and 2), but only bits and pieces of them. Been too long since I last read them. I also have The Lays of Beleriand, but I never got around to reading it.

 

[Aqua]

Alright, now I know two people agree that the Valar were most likely presuring Feanor too much. It is so nice to know that my theory makes sense after wondering about it for so long. It is so nice, though, the Tolkien wrote books complex enough that you can do this type of analysis on the characters.

Any other thoughts on this issue or these books?

Also, does anyone disagree?

 

[Enchanted Rose]

Well, biased or not, we both agree he at some point was treated unfairly. Also, I have read Unfinished Tales, but it has been a while, so I do not remember everything. Also, I have read parts of the Book of Lost Tales, and I have also read the Lay of Leithian from the Lays of Beleriand. I want to get the new Children of Hurin book. What books have you read?

It's been so long since I've read any Tolkien really. I used to do the amazingly cool thing of reading: The Hobbit, LotR, Bored of the Rings, The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales every year...but I haven't done that for a good few years xD

I guess at some time I'll read Christopher Tolkien's The History of Middle Earth, but that's 12 volumes so that could take a while. xD

So would you guys recommened the Lays of Beleriand?

 

[Aqua]

I really enjoyed reading the Lay of Leithian from the Lays of Beleriand. It can be a bit confusing at points since it was a work in progress and story elements changed between when Tolkien first wrote this and the final version of the Silmarillion. Yet, it gives you a lot of dialogue and other story elements that are not in the Silmarillion, and it is entirely in poem form, which I think is pretty cool.

 

[Pelafina]

Actually in a piece left out of the Silmarillion, Tolkien writes about a Ragnarok situation, where after the several great battles, Feanor gives up the Silmarils to repair the trees. Read here:

Dagor Dagorath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Zceith]

I've actually read Children of Hurin, and to tell the truth it lacks the depth and creativity of some of his other works. It seems rather forced and definitely lacks subtlety in the way that the plot develops. It's a worth a read, but don't expect anything on the scale of Unfinished Tales or The Simarillion. But that's just my opinion, read it for yourself if you will spare the time.

 

[Enchanted Rose]

Actually in a piece left out of the Silmarillion, Tolkien writes about a Ragnarok situation, where after the several great battles, Feanor gives up the Silmarils to repair the trees. Read here:

Dagor Dagorath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh my GOODNESS. That is so interesting. I think that would have been a lovely ending to The Silmarillion.

@Zceith: Thanks for your advice, it's really hard to get recommendations regarding this type of book, as so few people have actually read them.

@Aqua: Again, thanks for the recommendation, I really enjoy poem form as well.

 

[Aqua]

Actually in a piece left out of the Silmarillion, Tolkien writes about a Ragnarok situation, where after the several great battles, Feanor gives up the Silmarils to repair the trees. Read here:

Dagor Dagorath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow, thanks for pointing that out, I had not seen it before. It is great that in this ending Feanor does in the end give the Silmarils to Yavanna, and I think it would have been good for him to give them in the first place, but I still think the Tulkas (with others of the Valar) pressured him too much at first to surrender the Silmarils. Yet, I think the restoration of the Two Trees at the end, even with the Silmarils, would be extra miraculous. Yavanna said, right after the Trees were attacked, she could recall their life using the Silmarils before the roots of the Trees decayed. I think the Trees roots would have probably decayed over all these years. However, considering all of Arda is being restored, anything is possible.

 

[Suzaku]

Blast it all... I read Children of Hurin, and agree with Zceith, but I think that Tolkien should've done that with Turin. Give him some closure. Turin was such a sad character...

 

[Aqua]

Well, I finally was able to read "The Children of Hurin", and I also agree, I do not think it is as good as some of his other books, yet it was not bad. Turin's story was never my favorite part of the Silmarillion anyway, but it was nice to get a new (well, sort of, its a new version of a story) Tolkien book. I hope Christopher Tolkien keeps working on the edits and releasing new books.

 

[Pelafina]

Hurin was alright, it seemed cobbled together a little too much in my opinion. The Silmarillion's still my favorite out of his works. I'm with Aqua in hoping more books are released.

 

[Aqua]

This is a little off topic, but I am putting it here since I think the people who have read the Silmarillion would be most interested in this, and it kind of relates since Feanor's attitudes toward the Valar were affected by Melkor/Morgoth, and this is how Numenor was manipulated by Sauron. I was surfing the internet last night and found this person (not me) who came up with some ideas for a movie based on the Akallabeth. Here is the link:

Ideas for a Westernesse movie (1)

I probably should warn you, this is long.
I thought he had some pretty interesting ideas, although there are some things he has, like Sauron having the ring with him in Numenor, do not match with what I remember in the story. His analysis gives an interesting perspective on the characters, and I was wondering if anyone else had seen this or had any thoughts about it. Do you think it stays true to the spirit of the books?