Why Didn't Organization XIII Replace Dead Members?



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SweetYetSalty

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Continuing with my overanalyzing of 358/2 Days, another concept has caught my interest. Recruiting new members. The original Organization XIII have never been 13 for long. For the most part the primary team has been Organization VIII. Or IX if you count Xion, but it's never actually 13 for very long. Now I know the purpose of Organization XIII has changed over the course of the series but for Days it was still primarily in KH2 mode of their goal of collecting hearts to send Kingdom Hearts. Simple enough.

But their is something that gets overlooked that I wish got expanded upon in the Organization. And that is the replacement for members. As we know five members of the group were sent to Castle Oblivion and killed off, but why is it they never replace their ranks to be back at 13? Let's look at Roxas. Roxas was so important to the Organization that they made a replica clone to copy his abilities in case something happened to him. That makes perfect sense. If you work all day at a computer then make sure you have backup files in case something unfortunate happens to your work. Xion was that backup file for the Organization. But why didn't they replace the others?

Now you could argue that only Vexen and was worth replacing when compared to Roxas and his importance to the group. And frankly I'd agree with that. But the concept of new members has come up in the game itself. When Roxas first goes to Olympus with Xigbar, the latter mentions they could use the area to scout for new recruits for the Organization. At first you might think, does he mean more Dusk? Which is probably what it meant. But what if they had tried to turn Hercules or Hades into a Nobody to refill their ranks? What if while Roxas was training with Phil, another org member made contact with Hercules or Hades to try and turn one into a Nobody? Hercules is one of the physically strongest Disney characters in KH, and could have replaced Lexaeus as one of the Organization's physical attackers. Or smooth talker god of the underworld Hades, who could have replaced Marluxia as the reaper. Also Megara's sprite is confirmed to have been in the game and went unused. I wonder if this could have been the game where she and Hercules meet since she was not present in KH1, and perhaps she played a role in trying to trick Hercules into losing his heart the same way she was tricked into Herc losing his strength in the movie. Obviously they wouldn't have turned Hercules, but it could have been a good story to tell on the Organization trying to get back to being 13.

Xaldin had a similar story with the Beast, and as we know he was thwarted by Sora and Belle. Beast, like Hercules, is one of the stronger Disney characters with a strong heart. Able to cross between worlds without help. It was a very cool story, and Beast could have been a potential replacement for the empty five seats where nothing gather.

It just feels kinda weird they didn't feel the need to stay at 13, given how important that became in future games to always have 13 members. To the point they had 13 plus reserves. Saix tells Roxas "When have we ever been more then 13?" But the real question is "when have they ever been 13 to begin with"? I know Saix just said that because he hates Xion, but it doesn't change the question on the importance of 13.

To me in addition to Beast, and given the worlds they choose to put in Days, it would have been interesting if they had scouted the likes of Hercules, Hades, and even the likes of Aladdin and Jack Skellington, people with strong hearts to potentially either join the ranks of Organization XIII or turn them into Dusk or some class of Nobody to serve under them. Nobodies don't just grow on trees.

Now again, I know with Disney characters they are restricted with what they can or can't do with them. And I know Organization XIII is different today then what it was back then. But this is more of wondering from a in universe situation on why Xemnas didn't think to replace the Castle Oblivion team. Because even if you take into account their real objective they still need all 13 seats filled up. Anyway that's just the thoughts of a Kingdom Hearts fan with too much free time on his hands.
 

AR829038

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Well, I think there are several things to say about this.
First, just to be real, I'm pretty sure the ultimate reason they got no new members is simply because Nomura couldn't figure out what to do with any extra recruits story- or character-wise.
Second, as to the Disney characters, I'm pretty sure the Organization never intended to make them into legitimate members, but rather wanted their more primitive Nobodies as part of their army, as such Nobodies would be incredibly powerful when under their control, but a Nobody that retained the sentience and memories of the Disney character from which it was created might not have been so keen on willfully working with the people who split their original selves in half.
Third, Roxas was a special case amongst the Organization's members, as he was the only one able to wield the Keyblade, which was vital in their plans to construct Kingdom Hearts from the hearts freed by slain Heartless. He was uniquely important, but the other members were more or less expendable, so they probably felt it wasn't a big enough deal to replace them when they were killed.
Fourth, if we are to believe that Xemnas consciously founded Organization XIII with the intention of recruiting thirteen dark hearts for Master Xehanort's ersatz Keyblade War, then that would explain why the goal was always to have no more and no less than 13 members. Since we don't know how conscious Xemnas was of that original plan, we can't know whether he purposefully intended this or not.
And finally, as to why they never seemed to recruit any more members, I have a couple of theories. The most likely is that they're just too hard to find. You have to remember, according to Yen Sid, creating any kind of Nobody, even something as simple as a Dusk, from a person, already requires that person to be strong of will, so with most people they would only get turned into a Heartless, at least if we're to believe that that lore is still canon. In order to create a Nobody powerful enough to retain their minds and wills requires an individual of exceptional strength. Xehanort, we know, had a truly unique will; Braig was, well, Luxu; Dilan and Aeleus both came across as both physically and emotionally strong; Even and Ienzo both had an incredibly strong minds and scientific curiosity, like Xehanort; Lea and Isa were both extraordinarily courageous for sneaking into Radiant Garden's castle to try and rescue Subject X; and Lauriam, Elrena, Sora, and whoever Luxord's and Demyx's Somebodies were all ranked as Keyblade Masters, thereby signifying their exemplary strength of heart. It could simply be that the Organization never came across any other such viable candidates afterward.
The other explanation might be that Xemnas or the rest of the Organization just didn't care enough to replace them once they'd been killed. After all, most of the Organization members didn't have hearts, so it isn't a stretch to assume that their apathy for one another simply ran so deep that bringing their fallen comrades back to life might have not been a high priority beyond strategic value.
 

SweetYetSalty

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Well, I think there are several things to say about this.
First, just to be real, I'm pretty sure the ultimate reason they got no new members is simply because Nomura couldn't figure out what to do with any extra recruits story- or character-wise.
Second, as to the Disney characters, I'm pretty sure the Organization never intended to make them into legitimate members, but rather wanted their more primitive Nobodies as part of their army, as such Nobodies would be incredibly powerful when under their control, but a Nobody that retained the sentience and memories of the Disney character from which it was created might not have been so keen on willfully working with the people who split their original selves in half.
Third, Roxas was a special case amongst the Organization's members, as he was the only one able to wield the Keyblade, which was vital in their plans to construct Kingdom Hearts from the hearts freed by slain Heartless. He was uniquely important, but the other members were more or less expendable, so they probably felt it wasn't a big enough deal to replace them when they were killed.
Fourth, if we are to believe that Xemnas consciously founded Organization XIII with the intention of recruiting thirteen dark hearts for Master Xehanort's ersatz Keyblade War, then that would explain why the goal was always to have no more and no less than 13 members. Since we don't know how conscious Xemnas was of that original plan, we can't know whether he purposefully intended this or not.
And finally, as to why they never seemed to recruit any more members, I have a couple of theories. The most likely is that they're just too hard to find. You have to remember, according to Yen Sid, creating any kind of Nobody, even something as simple as a Dusk, from a person, already requires that person to be strong of will, so with most people they would only get turned into a Heartless, at least if we're to believe that that lore is still canon. In order to create a Nobody powerful enough to retain their minds and wills requires an individual of exceptional strength. Xehanort, we know, had a truly unique will; Braig was, well, Luxu; Dilan and Aeleus both came across as both physically and emotionally strong; Even and Ienzo both had an incredibly strong minds and scientific curiosity, like Xehanort; Lea and Isa were both extraordinarily courageous for sneaking into Radiant Garden's castle to try and rescue Subject X; and Lauriam, Elrena, Sora, and whoever Luxord's and Demyx's Somebodies were all ranked as Keyblade Masters, thereby signifying their exemplary strength of heart. It could simply be that the Organization never came across any other such viable candidates afterward.
The other explanation might be that Xemnas or the rest of the Organization just didn't care enough to replace them once they'd been killed. After all, most of the Organization members didn't have hearts, so it isn't a stretch to assume that their apathy for one another simply ran so deep that bringing their fallen comrades back to life might have not been a high priority beyond strategic value.
I would say Beast would have a strong enough will to retain his form in Nobody form. I mean if Scar can retain his form as a Heartless then surely Beast can as a Nobody.

This just feels like something that is overlooked in the history of Organization XIII on the whole additional members thing. With the original goal of collecting hearts so they could become human again it shouldn't matter how many members were left standing. That's why it was perfectly fine for the primary team to be down to 8 core members because as long as they have a Keyblader the job will get done. But when you take into account DDD's real reason for the Organization, there's one little problem. They didn't have 13 members. Even when counting Xion as one, Xemnas was prepping her to eat Roxas, so they'd still be down to 8. And then with Saix quoting the importance of them remaining as 13 and Xigbar saying they are always looking for new recruits, it just feels like they should have put more emphasis on actually being a organization of 13.

I know the real answer. KH had undergone several story changes and retcons and this is one of them. I guess what I'm trying to say is I wish they expanded on Organization XIII trying to replace their lost members during Days. They would have failed obviously because of KH2, but it would certainly give the other members something to do. Because it just feels like Roxas, Xion, Xigbar, and Xaldin are the only ones doing any real work.

Anyway I really like your answers. Thanks for responding.
 

Rodin

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I think maybe humanoid nobodies are hard to come by?

For all we know maybe humanoid nobodies arrive fully formed with no intermediary phase? Like none of the thirtheen started out as dusks before they became humanoid.

So Xaldin probably thought Beast would have become a Twilight Torn instead of a humanoid one.
 

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Given the small amount of worlds we see in KH 1 and 2, It's probably a matter of "if there are people to become nobodies, they're few and hard to come by" Remember, a majority of the original organization's members (1-8) came from one place in particular, where the ones chosen to become nobodies were either very smart (the scientists for working in the research lab, Lea and Isa for getting in there) or very strong (dilan, aleus and braig for being castle guards). the less i say about the remaining 5 members, the better. Point is, they had strong characteristics to them that likely separated them from say, random Chinese guard #57 in Land of the Dragons. In a way, you could say it's similar to the way summons worked in the original KH, it's the spirit of the character (Bambi's innocence, Simba's bravery) that allowed them to persist when they lost their heart.
 
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