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What was Ienzo's backup plan?

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Just before Demyx delivers an empty replica and Ansem the Wise to Ienzo in radiant garden, Ienzo complains about not having a vessel for Roxas's reconstructed heart. He says that without a body, 'it's the backup plan or nothing now. But the backup plan isn't a true solution'. Then Demyx gives him a vessel so this backup plan isn't needed.

I can't find any indication as to what this backup plan was or any other references to it. Unless there is an explanation, I wondered what people thought it could be, and whether it could have any significance in the future? My instinctive guess was putting bodyless hearts in a datascape to live a sort of life.
 

Face My Fears

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Just before Demyx delivers an empty replica and Ansem the Wise to Ienzo in radiant garden, Ienzo complains about not having a vessel for Roxas's reconstructed heart. He says that without a body, 'it's the backup plan or nothing now. But the backup plan isn't a true solution'. Then Demyx gives him a vessel so this backup plan isn't needed.

I can't find any indication as to what this backup plan was or any other references to it. Unless there is an explanation, I wondered what people thought it could be, and whether it could have any significance in the future? My instinctive guess was putting bodyless hearts in a datascape to live a sort of life.
Can you please tell me which scene he says "it's the backup plan or nothing now"? I don't ever remember him mentioning a backup plan.
 

cakito123

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Nice question, I didn't even pay attention to what he says in this scene...
I want to know nonetheless.. I'm wondering if that's important enough for Nomura to talk about it again in future games. I hope it is.
Kingdom Hearts is all about shooting random stuff at the window (especially the numbered titles) and them creating a sub-plot later (side games) about who or what catches it down there and what it actually means, so I wouldn't be surprised if this gets better explained later.
 

Zahnpaste

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The backup plan is described in the secret report, I'm pretty sure. But I forgot what it was and in which report it is stated.
 

okhi12

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The backup plan is described in the secret report, I'm pretty sure. But I forgot what it was and in which report it is stated.
That's what I thought but I read both Ienzo's reports (9 and 10) yesterday and it's not explained there. The only part that could be related with the backup plan is this:

Complete and perfect digitalization of the heart is impossible. We can only hope to partially reconstruct it. Thus, I see no way forward but to extract the hearts we so desperately need directly from within Sora. Fortunately, the data stored in Twilight Town contains a near-perfect record of the memories of those who lived there—and for Roxas and Namine especially, this is crucial.

He says that ''complete digitalization of the heart is impossible'' but it can be partially reconstructed, which goes in line with ''the backup plan is not a true solution'' if that's what he was talking about. Even if they managed to reconstruct Roxas and put him in a data world, it wouldn't be Roxas at all, more like an incomplete simulation of him.
 
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He says that ''complete digitalization of the heart is impossible'' but it can be partially reconstructed, which goes in line with ''the backup plan is not a true solution'' if that's what he was talking about. Even if they managed to reconstruct Roxas and put him in a data world, it wouldn't be Roxas at all, more like an incomplete simulation of him.
But the scene begins with Ienzo saying that they've 'come a long way in reconstructing Roxas's heart' but then talks about needing a body and then mentions the backup plan so it really seems like the backup plan is for not having a replica rather than remaking the heart.
 

okhi12

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But the scene begins with Ienzo saying that they've 'come a long way in reconstructing Roxas's heart' but then talks about needing a body and then mentions the backup plan so it really seems like the backup plan is for not having a replica rather than remaking the heart.
I didn't explain myself very well. My point is that not having a replica means the heart should be placed somewhere else. Reconstructing the heart through data memories was a necesary step for either plan (replica or backup) so I don't think the backup consists of remaking the heart.
I take it as he was considering placing the incomplete heart recreated through data in a data world unless (or until) they could manage to get a suitable body for Roxas. That way a still incomplete version of Roxas would be able to interact with the data world's inhabitants (just like he did in the other Twilight Town at the beginning of KH2) allowing him to have some sort of 'life', as limited as such a life would be. Hence it's not a true solution, because it would be a fake life nonetheless.
It could have been a temporary thing if they got a replica and then merge the data heart with the replica to 'shape' it as Roxas (as they did according to the secret reports) and then freeing Roxa's heart inside Sora to make him return for real, but if they didn't got a replica the incomplete Roxas would be stuck in the data world forever.
 
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SweetYetSalty

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Wow! This comment completely flew over my head. Like okhi12 said they likely would have tried to recreate a data vessel for him in Data Twilight Town, which wasn't a suitable situation, even Ansem seeker said so. Which is why they needed his data from that Twilight Town.

But this brings up more questions for me. I've always wondered how all these guys were 'recreating hearts'. Ienzo said they needed Roxas's data from Twilight Town, and the Organization were doing experiments to create a heart for their own Replicas. But what would these artificial hearts do? Give the vessels the ability to move? Do they need their original hearts or just their memories to fill in whatever heart is necessary? Does Ienzo's plan mean making a brand new Roxas altogether? And how did Ienzo and Riku know Replicas can house hearts to begin with? They didn't know the Replicas can grow hearts. Or did Riku know? That would contradict their attitude towards the Nobodies in KH2.

I really, really want to learn more about data vessels and Replicas. How they work and function. They are far more interesting then the regular Nobodies at this point. I need a Vexen and Ienzo game to explain, because I'm still left asking questions.
 

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And how did Ienzo and Riku know Replicas can house hearts to begin with? They didn't know the Replicas can grow hearts. Or did Riku know? That would contradict their attitude towards the Nobodies in KH2.
Not a big issue, there are several possibilities.
Lea was restored and conscious at the same time as Ienzo, maybe they talked about it -offscreen- a little at some point before KH3 started. In KH2 Axel was aware Roxas made him feel 'like he had a heart', but he already suspected it in 358/2 days, he even asked Roxas if he was sure they don't have hearts, and in one of that game's secret reports Axel expressed remorse for how he used Riku Replica in Castle Oblivion.

And then, at the end of DDD Xemnas confirmed to Sora that he lied to the nobodies about not having hearts. That's quite important, there's no way Sora didn't mention that to Yen Sid, Riku and the King, and Lea could easily confirm it. Plus Sora felt Roxas's feelings in the dream within a dream.

It's safe to assume that by the time KH3 starts, that information was common knowledge among the good guys. They had a lot to talk about between the end of DDD and the start of KH3, but KH3 was a very lazy game at explaining things.
If Lea didn't tell Ienzo, that leaves Riku and Mickey or Chip and Dale.
If Disney Castle contacted Radiant Garden to collaborate in the computing stuff and decyphering Ansem's code, first of all they would need to exchange info so they knew what they were doing. We don't know who told Ienzo, but it's not that important after all, and at least it makes sense someone told him. This is an easy to forgive issue considering everything else that was poorly explained or exposed in KH3.

Edit: Just now I realized you were talking about Replicas housing hearts, not nobodies growing them. My bad.

When Riku Replica died, he wondered where his heart would go, and Riku guessed it would be the same place as his own. That could make him suspect that Replicas can be filled with or grow hearts.
Axel could have suspected something, too.

And Vexen aimed for creating replicas that could not only duplicate, but replace and be as real as normal people.
Vexen used Riku's memories to create Riku Replica, and hearts are made of memories, which also shape replicas, meaning he not only replicated Riku's body, but also the heart (to some extent, we know a complete recreation through data is not possible). Which makes sense considering Riku Replica thought he was the real one. Then Naminé messed him, but that's irrelevant here.

Vexen liked to brag about his intellect and the replica project prowess in CoM; to some extent Ienzo must have known about what the replica program aimed for, (why Xemnas was so interested in it) and Vexen's own goals, though the only info KH3 Ienzo could salvage was old, before Vexen could achieve anything useful.

You know, in real life scientific papers have a section at the beginning that discuss the goals of an study. It's one of the first things you need in order to conduct an experiment: goals (a purpose, to justify the study), hypothesis (predictions you want to validate or not) and a methodology (the way to carry it out). Documenting every step you take is absolutely necessary in science and Vexen documenting the replica program goals long before he could achieve them suits him. This is much more speculation that fact, but in lack of a better explanation...
 
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Face My Fears

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Wow! This comment completely flew over my head. Like okhi12 said they likely would have tried to recreate a data vessel for him in Data Twilight Town, which wasn't a suitable situation, even Ansem seeker said so. Which is why they needed his data from that Twilight Town.

But this brings up more questions for me. I've always wondered how all these guys were 'recreating hearts'. Ienzo said they needed Roxas's data from Twilight Town, and the Organization were doing experiments to create a heart for their own Replicas. But what would these artificial hearts do? Give the vessels the ability to move? Do they need their original hearts or just their memories to fill in whatever heart is necessary? Does Ienzo's plan mean making a brand new Roxas altogether? And how did Ienzo and Riku know Replicas can house hearts to begin with? They didn't know the Replicas can grow hearts. Or did Riku know? That would contradict their attitude towards the Nobodies in KH2.

I really, really want to learn more about data vessels and Replicas. How they work and function. They are far more interesting then the regular Nobodies at this point. I need a Vexen and Ienzo game to explain, because I'm still left asking questions.
I think the existence of Riku Replica is what made Riku confident about hearts being able to be held in replicas. On top of it all, Riku Replica was seemingly Riku's "recreated heart" implanted into a replica.

After reading everything in here, I didn't realize how creepy their "solution" actually was. I think it would be akin to Data Sora, except created from scraps of Roxas all over and I guess Ienzo would "fill in the blanks" to complete Roxas AND he would only be able to exist in Data Twilight Town... unless they found a way to transplant Roxas' heart from Sora into the data (which was confirmed not possible).
 

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Not a big issue, there are several possibilities.
Lea was restored and conscious at the same time as Ienzo, maybe they talked about it -offscreen- a little at some point before KH3 started. In KH2 Axel was aware Roxas made him feel 'like he had a heart', but he already suspected it in 358/2 days, he even asked Roxas if he was sure they don't have hearts, and in one of that game's secret reports Axel expressed remorse for how he used Riku Replica in Castle Oblivion.

And then, at the end of DDD Xemnas confirmed to Sora that he lied to the nobodies about not having hearts. That's quite important, there's no way Sora didn't mention that to Yen Sid, Riku and the King, and Lea could easily confirm it. Plus Sora felt Roxas's feelings in the dream within a dream.

It's safe to assume that by the time KH3 starts, that information was common knowledge among the good guys. They had a lot to talk about between the end of DDD and the start of KH3, but KH3 was a very lazy game at explaining things.
If Lea didn't tell Ienzo, that leaves Riku and Mickey or Chip and Dale.
If Disney Castle contacted Radiant Garden to collaborate in the computing stuff and decyphering Ansem's code, first of all they would need to exchange info so they knew what they were doing. We don't know who told Ienzo, but it's not that important after all, and at least it makes sense someone told him. This is an easy to forgive issue considering everything else that was poorly explained or exposed in KH3.

Edit: Just now I realized you were talking about Replicas housing hearts, not nobodies growing them. My bad.

When Riku Replica died, he wondered where his heart would go, and Riku guessed it would be the same place as his own. That could make him suspect that Replicas can be filled with or grow hearts.
Axel could have suspected something, too.

And Vexen aimed for creating replicas that could not only duplicate, but replace and be as real as normal people.
Vexen used Riku's memories to create Riku Replica, and hearts are made of memories, which also shape replicas, meaning he not only replicated Riku's body, but also the heart (to some extent, we know a complete recreation through data is not possible). Which makes sense considering Riku Replica thought he was the real one. Then Naminé messed him, but that's irrelevant here.

Vexen liked to brag about his intellect and the replica project prowess in CoM; to some extent Ienzo must have known about what the replica program aimed for, (why Xemnas was so interested in it) and Vexen's own goals, though the only info KH3 Ienzo could salvage was old, before Vexen could achieve anything useful.

You know, in real life scientific papers have a section at the beginning that discuss the goals of an study. It's one of the first things you need in order to conduct an experiment: goals (a purpose, to justify the study), hypothesis (predictions you want to validate or not) and a methodology (the way to carry it out). Documenting every step you take is absolutely necessary in science and Vexen documenting the replica program goals long before he could achieve them suits him. This is much more speculation that fact, but in lack of a better explanation...
I guess so. I just found it weird that Riku and Ienzo came to the conclusion to use Replicas to house a heart for Roxas. It didn't feel organic at all, and Replicas didn't operate that way in either COM or Days. Xehanort's side made sense because many of their members were deep into the project, like Vexen, Xemnas, and Saix. Oh well.

I think the existence of Riku Replica is what made Riku confident about hearts being able to be held in replicas. On top of it all, Riku Replica was seemingly Riku's "recreated heart" implanted into a replica.

After reading everything in here, I didn't realize how creepy their "solution" actually was. I think it would be akin to Data Sora, except created from scraps of Roxas all over and I guess Ienzo would "fill in the blanks" to complete Roxas AND he would only be able to exist in Data Twilight Town... unless they found a way to transplant Roxas' heart from Sora into the data (which was confirmed not possible).
I wouldn't normally find that creepy by Kingdom Hearts standards, what would have made it creepy is the 'created from Roxas scraps' and existing in Data Twilight Town alone. I mean the blank Replica is creepy too but there is no way around it not being creepy. Truth is the good guys got lucky Vexen changed sides.
 

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I guess so. I just found it weird that Riku and Ienzo came to the conclusion to use Replicas to house a heart for Roxas. It didn't feel organic at all, and Replicas didn't operate that way in either COM or Days. Xehanort's side made sense because many of their members were deep into the project, like Vexen, Xemnas, and Saix. Oh well.


I wouldn't normally find that creepy by Kingdom Hearts standards, what would have made it creepy is the 'created from Roxas scraps' and existing in Data Twilight Town alone. I mean the blank Replica is creepy too but there is no way around it not being creepy. Truth is the good guys got lucky Vexen changed sides.
Absolutely agree with all you said here. About the replica solution not feeling organic, that's what happens when old plot elements are shoehorned again or expanded to make them more important or significant than they were originally intended, which gets aggravated by the lore being indirectly exposed to players but not sufficiently discussed by the characters through dialogues.
Making us think ''How does this character know about (whatever)?'' and ''How did they come to that conclusion?'' and having to conclude that other character must have told him/her offscreen about that lore detail... that's not a good storytelling mechanic. It leaves room for interpretation, yes, but also unnecessarily overcomplicates a series that is already known for being convoluted.

The lore is exposed to us through different means, and some of those are not the games to begin with... we knowing something as passive witnesses (players) doesn't necessarily mean the characters in the game do, right?

Nomura usually comes up with the excuse that ''he likes seeing fan theories, but sometimes we think too much'' when we don't understand things as he expected, but it's his fault for being such a lazy writer. Brilliant at times, but very very lazy.

Well, we wouldn't need to go that far if he actually explained things instead of having us constantly guess even the most basic things to understand the plot.

I didn't intend this comment to become a rant, but C'mon, Nomura.
 

Face My Fears

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I guess so. I just found it weird that Riku and Ienzo came to the conclusion to use Replicas to house a heart for Roxas. It didn't feel organic at all, and Replicas didn't operate that way in either COM or Days. Xehanort's side made sense because many of their members were deep into the project, like Vexen, Xemnas, and Saix. Oh well.


I wouldn't normally find that creepy by Kingdom Hearts standards, what would have made it creepy is the 'created from Roxas scraps' and existing in Data Twilight Town alone. I mean the blank Replica is creepy too but there is no way around it not being creepy. Truth is the good guys got lucky Vexen changed sides.
But I think the issue stems from WHY they felt the need to bring Roxas back. If it wasn't feasibly possible through means that will actually liberate the REAL Roxas' heart, then why bother make a knock-off data version? They know that data can become its own thing, so why create ANOTHER Roxas while the real one rests peacefully in Sora?

Now that I'm actually thinking about the "back up plan", it's poking holes into the very reason for bringing back Roxas. They didn't need him to make up the 7 Guardians of Light (unlike Xion's return via the Organization). It just seems like they wanted Roxas back, no matter what, which makes it seem odd. I get Sora waning him to be free, but I don't think Sora would have wanted some Frankenstein's monster version of Roxas trapped in a crap simulation of Twilight Town -- to me that sounds like torture for the "back up plan" and going against everything we've learned about creation/existence from Roxas/Xion's ordeals.
 
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But I think the issue stems from WHY they felt the need to bring Roxas back. If it wasn't feasibly possible through means that will actually liberate the REAL Roxas' heart, then why bother make a knock-off data version? They know that data can become its own thing, so why create ANOTHER Roxas while the real one rests peacefully in Sora?

Now that I'm actually thinking about the "back up plan", it's poking holes into the very reason for bringing back Roxas. They didn't need him to make up the 7 Guardians of Light (unlike Xion's return via the Organization). It just seems like they wanted Roxas back, no matter what, which makes it seem odd. I get Sora waning him to be free, but I don't think Sora would have wanted some Frankenstein's monster version of Roxas trapped in a crap simulation of Twilight Town -- to me that sounds like torture for the "back up plan" and going against everything we've learned about creation/existence from Roxas/Xion's ordeals.

Sora told Xemnas that he wanted to do just that. When niceness makes up 90% of your character, it becomes creepy-nice. e.g. spending 98% of a world trying to force your worldview onto someone rather than let them think for themselves (frozen).
 

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Sora told Xemnas that he wanted to do just that. When niceness makes up 90% of your character, it becomes creepy-nice. e.g. spending 98% of a world trying to force your worldview onto someone rather than let them think for themselves (frozen).
But I don't think Sora approved or even knew what Ienzo's back-up plan was. They didn't make it clear whether Sora would have gone through with Franken-Roxas trapped for all eternity in a bootleg Twilight Town.

I don't see how Sora was trying to force his worldview on Elsa. After talking to her once (and never again), he was trying to meet up with her and see how she was. Sure, he was probably going to give a "darkness = bad" lecture, but we barely even got scenes that indicated that Elsa's magic may be connected to the darkness, so it's kind of a moot point. I don't think I've seen Sora do anything that I would consider creepy-nice.
 
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