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Then you're just going to love the future.
Transhumanism
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Then you're just going to love the future.
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One day we'll look back on this and run laugh.exe.
A question, if I may? As something made by humans, as a part of humans, wouldn't the very purpose of the processes discussed in this thread be to emulate the human state as closely as possible?
If we were to create a next stage, it would be based on the assumptions of this stage. An imitation or an improvement, depending on your perspective.
We would no longer be human. Or would we?
A question, if I may? As something made by humans, as a part of humans, wouldn't the very purpose of the processes discussed in this thread be to emulate the human state as closely as possible?
If we were to create a next stage, it would be based on the assumptions of this stage. An imitation or an improvement, depending on your perspective.
We would no longer be human. Or would we?
kek
Perhaps initially, but I think in the future we will begin to add non-human functionality to our own bodies. Scientists are already striving to do this with things like contact lenses that serves as a screen for web browsers. That's not very far removed from modifying our bodies themselves.
If the issue is with modifying the body itself, I still don't believe it will be a big psychological hurdle for mankind. We are already working on growing prosthetic tissue and body parts. A freshly grown arm being grafted onto your shoulder is no less alien to your body than a machine.
Umm, I know I want to remain human for as long as I can ^^. It's true though as technology excels so do the crazy ideas of scientists and such. The more we push technology and progress it to it's limits the more dangerous we become as a people. If I was from a distant planet eons away from here and I came to Earth I would be disgusted with all the war and violence that we have produced.
If you're talking about having prosthetic bodies like in G.I.T.S then that is totally possible. We already have technology like that but as we all know people are trying to push machines to be as human as me and you. That's sort of a scary thought. Look what happened to Dr. Gero in Dragon Ball Z, I know bad example but totally relevant.
If you're talking about having prosthetic bodies like in G.I.T.S then that is totally possible. We already have technology like that but as we all know people are trying to push machines to be as human as me and you. That's sort of a scary thought. Look what happened to Dr. Gero in Dragon Ball Z, I know bad example but totally relevant.
Of course this thread wouldn't be complete without the requisite Frankenstein Complex. Transhumanism isn't about making machines act like humans. It's about a fusion of man and machine. Even if we did have sentient AI beings, how could they tell the difference between what is human and what is not human at that point?
Like I said, technology is growing to fantastic heights of intelligence. Take a look at Project Natal, something the people at XBOX have been working. It allows you to have intelligent conversations with a computerized person that will give you unbelievably accurate answers to your questions and can even play games with you, pretty cool stuff. I understand what you mean though. ^^
There's a world of difference between a machine that feeds you programmed answers and a machine that actually "thinks."
I'm sure that will be apart of our modern society soon enough.
Well even though there is a long way to go before robots really take on serious human characteristics like having thoughts and actually being functioning members of society we still must be careful of what we create. It sound trivial but there very well could be a hostile robot takeover in the future.
What's the difference between giving machines control over decision making and a political structure made for decision making? We already put our faith and futures in the proverbial hands of our social contracts. Shit, people believe that governments are inhuman entities that seek to control our lives right now. What then is the difference between a figurative machine and a literal one?
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I don't think that's the point he's trying to make.
An artificial arm grafted to your shoulder will still be a human arm. It's still got the same funtion and basic design as the original arm.
So, say we create an artifical neural network based off the human brain? A computer so advanced it copies the exact form and funtion of our organic brains.
How is that brain not a human brain? It may not be made in the same way, but it has the exact same functions and processes because it's designed to copy human brains. The only thing that changes is the material it's made out of.
In this vein, we could replace our entire body and still be human, because our new body would be made entire of componants designed to copy their analogues in our old body.
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To further this point, you are not the same person you were a year ago. The cells that make up your bodies have died and been replaced within a year's time (with a few minor exceptions).
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This is long, but I thought some might enjoy it. It is taken from a rather intelligent webcomic, Dresdon Codak, and is the author's endnote to one of his strips.
Dresden Codak Archive Hob #9 - An Exotic Matter
The following was taken from a cave wall painting in southern Tunisia more than 300,000 years ago. Fossil evidence suggests that the author was of the species Homo erectus.
The term ‘trans-simian’ comes from the shortening of ‘transitional simian,’ a concept Dr. Klomp has developed to describe an individual who is in an evolutionary transition from simian to post-simian, though Klomp himself admits that he is not entirely clear what a true post-simian would be. Characteristics exhibited by a trans-simian include augmentation of one’s natural abilities with ‘tools,’ as well as one’s mental capacities with what has been dubbed ‘culture.’
Klomp’s primary argument rests on what he calls the ‘Quickening,’ an imagined point somewhere in the future when the advancement of ‘culture’ occurs so rapidly that its pace will far exceed that of biological evolution. In his own words,
Notice that Klomp cherry-picks discoveries to better support his argument of an exponential growth. It took more than a million years to develop fire and the hand-ax, and yet Klomp believes simply because it took only 2,000 years to develop bows and arrows that new inventions will spring up in even shorter timeframes. This theory is an expansion of ‘Morg’s Law,’ which states that since a sharpened rock can in turn become a chisel to make an even sharper rock, that the sharpness of hand-axes will increase exponentially over the span of tens of thousands of years. While Morg’s Law has so far proven accurate, Klomp can’t escape the reality that there is an upper limit, namely that a rock can only become so sharp. We have already noticed a slight decline in the growth of hand-ax sharpness, but Klomp insists that when the potential of stone axes becomes exhausted, new materials will be discovered to replace the rocks and continue the exponential trend of sharpness. As of the time of this article, however, he has provided no evidence of what these miracle rocks are. Klomp also argues that there will come a time when we will use tools to create other tools, though naturally this is a laughable fiction since there has never been any recorded evidence of a tool making another tool, or even any records for that matter.
Another factor in Klomp’s post-simian world is the development of “abstract thought” that will be aided by
The most shocking of Klomp’s predictions, however, is that we apes will have little or no place in the post-simian world.
Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that such a post-simian future is possible or even probable. Is it really a world we should want to strive for, where our very ape nature is stripped away in the name of efficiency? Technologies such as the bow and arrow already desimianize the act of hunting. While our ancestors were able to experience the pure ape feeling of clubbing an animal to death with a rock, we are left with the cold, sterilized bow that kills cleanly and quickly from a safe distance. This separation from basic daily activities is a slippery slope. What would happen if we no longer had to gather fruits and nuts, and they simply grew wherever we wanted them, or had drinking water flow right to our feet instead of wandering in search of streams for days? These seeming conveniences would rob us of what it means to be an ape. Klomp predicts that through a technology called ‘hygiene’ we could extend the simian lifespan well into the late 20s or possibly 30s. What exactly will the post-simian do with all that time? Do we really want to live in a society populated by geriatric 27- year- olds? In living so long and spending so much time ‘thinking,’ do we not also run the risk of becoming a cold, passionless race incapable of experiencing our two emotions (fear and not fear)? How much of our simianity are we willing to sacrifice for this notion of progress?
Rest assured that while Klomp may have accru ed a recent following, there is no reality to his fantastic claims. What is concerning is the increasing number of young apes spending less time clubbing animals and more time ‘inventing,’ ‘thinking’ and ‘creating,’ none of which contribute to the preservation of the simian way of life. These sorts of fads come and go, however, and this author is confident that in a short while everyone will have forgotten about Klomp and the notion of being anything more than an ape.”
-Thog
Professor of Finding an Animal and then Killing It,
The University of the Woods
– Translated by Aaron Diaz of Dresden Codak
As for myself (Hidden), I'll try to go back and actually engage the conversation of the last few pages later when I have more time.
Dresden Codak Archive Hob #9 - An Exotic Matter
The following was taken from a cave wall painting in southern Tunisia more than 300,000 years ago. Fossil evidence suggests that the author was of the species Homo erectus.
“Enough is Enough”
A Thinking Ape’s Critique of Trans-Simianism
To further expound upon the topic of last week’s installment, I will address the more specific claims of Dr. Klomp and his radical theory that has been gaining wider acceptance throughout the community. Once again I would like to thank our readers for sending in your fish bones and boar hides in support of this journalist’s campaign to expose Dr. Klomp’s trans-simianist prattle for what it is: a collection of wishful thoughts out of keeping with any factual evidence.A Thinking Ape’s Critique of Trans-Simianism
The term ‘trans-simian’ comes from the shortening of ‘transitional simian,’ a concept Dr. Klomp has developed to describe an individual who is in an evolutionary transition from simian to post-simian, though Klomp himself admits that he is not entirely clear what a true post-simian would be. Characteristics exhibited by a trans-simian include augmentation of one’s natural abilities with ‘tools,’ as well as one’s mental capacities with what has been dubbed ‘culture.’
Klomp’s primary argument rests on what he calls the ‘Quickening,’ an imagined point somewhere in the future when the advancement of ‘culture’ occurs so rapidly that its pace will far exceed that of biological evolution. In his own words,
“There will come a time when within a single generation we will develop one or possibly even two new ideas… Current advancements in the ‘bow’ and ‘arrow’ industries suggest an exponential trend in the expansion of our technological capacities. We are able to perform hunts in a fraction of the time it took our ancestors, thus freeing up valuable time to ‘ think ‘ of new ideas. In the post-simian world, we may develop into a species that is not only intellectually superior to our current state, but capable of feats beyond the comprehension of a contemporary simian.”
Pardon this author for not holding his breath.
Notice that Klomp cherry-picks discoveries to better support his argument of an exponential growth. It took more than a million years to develop fire and the hand-ax, and yet Klomp believes simply because it took only 2,000 years to develop bows and arrows that new inventions will spring up in even shorter timeframes. This theory is an expansion of ‘Morg’s Law,’ which states that since a sharpened rock can in turn become a chisel to make an even sharper rock, that the sharpness of hand-axes will increase exponentially over the span of tens of thousands of years. While Morg’s Law has so far proven accurate, Klomp can’t escape the reality that there is an upper limit, namely that a rock can only become so sharp. We have already noticed a slight decline in the growth of hand-ax sharpness, but Klomp insists that when the potential of stone axes becomes exhausted, new materials will be discovered to replace the rocks and continue the exponential trend of sharpness. As of the time of this article, however, he has provided no evidence of what these miracle rocks are. Klomp also argues that there will come a time when we will use tools to create other tools, though naturally this is a laughable fiction since there has never been any recorded evidence of a tool making another tool, or even any records for that matter.
Another factor in Klomp’s post-simian world is the development of “abstract thought” that will be aided by
“the ability to store memories and thoughts outside our brains onto physical media, perhaps on flattened tree bark. To achieve this we will have to overcome the problem of turning words, which are sounds, into things we can see, but given current trends this is an engineering issue that will ultimately be resolved. This will be the real catalyst for the Quickening, when the memories of one generation will literally become immortal and then build upon the memories of the next, creating a sort of mass mind that experts in my field are calling “history.” In the post-simian world our era might even be referred to as pre-history.”
Here we see Klomp’s predictions descend from unsupported speculation to sheer fantasy. His recent cave painting, The Quickening is Near, explains in great detail different methods we may employ to transform words into some kind of visible format, but all are incomplete. The simple fact remains that words are sounds, not pictures, and no amount of wishing will change that. Even if such a thing were possible, it is doubtful that many would wish to store their memories externally. This author, for one, would prefer it if his memories stayed in his head and not on some cold, lifeless bark.
The most shocking of Klomp’s predictions, however, is that we apes will have little or no place in the post-simian world.
“As technological progress outpaces biology, new selective pressures will arise that will force our species to evolve mentally and physically beyond what we are now. This is the same trend that gave rise to our own intelligent species, but it will only accelerate in the coming generations. Our new environment increasingly favors higher dexterity and intelligence, and so the true post-simian will not be an ape at all. It will share some similarities with the modern ape, but at the same time possess capacities far beyond our comprehension. The thought capacity of a single post-simian could be greater than the combined brains of every ape in the world.”
More intelligent than an ape? Klomp fails to explain just what a post-ape can think of that we mere mortals cannot. The capacity of the simian mind is already far beyond any animal in the world: We are capable of using speech to let others know where we are, where to sleep and eat, and where to find shelter when it rains. Exactly how fast do we need our brains to be to figure these things out? When will we decide that enough is enough?
Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that such a post-simian future is possible or even probable. Is it really a world we should want to strive for, where our very ape nature is stripped away in the name of efficiency? Technologies such as the bow and arrow already desimianize the act of hunting. While our ancestors were able to experience the pure ape feeling of clubbing an animal to death with a rock, we are left with the cold, sterilized bow that kills cleanly and quickly from a safe distance. This separation from basic daily activities is a slippery slope. What would happen if we no longer had to gather fruits and nuts, and they simply grew wherever we wanted them, or had drinking water flow right to our feet instead of wandering in search of streams for days? These seeming conveniences would rob us of what it means to be an ape. Klomp predicts that through a technology called ‘hygiene’ we could extend the simian lifespan well into the late 20s or possibly 30s. What exactly will the post-simian do with all that time? Do we really want to live in a society populated by geriatric 27- year- olds? In living so long and spending so much time ‘thinking,’ do we not also run the risk of becoming a cold, passionless race incapable of experiencing our two emotions (fear and not fear)? How much of our simianity are we willing to sacrifice for this notion of progress?
Rest assured that while Klomp may have accru ed a recent following, there is no reality to his fantastic claims. What is concerning is the increasing number of young apes spending less time clubbing animals and more time ‘inventing,’ ‘thinking’ and ‘creating,’ none of which contribute to the preservation of the simian way of life. These sorts of fads come and go, however, and this author is confident that in a short while everyone will have forgotten about Klomp and the notion of being anything more than an ape.”
-Thog
Professor of Finding an Animal and then Killing It,
The University of the Woods
– Translated by Aaron Diaz of Dresden Codak
As for myself (Hidden), I'll try to go back and actually engage the conversation of the last few pages later when I have more time.
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This is precisely the point--that we cannot use the assumptions of this stage to craft a transcendant one. That transhumanism is viewed as a way to improve the human condition shows how fundamentally we still misunderstand what the term trans-human really means.
As you say--this is not a question of transcending humanity, but modifying humanity. There is a difference, I think.
Is fear a viable argument in face of the unknown?
This cuts more to the heart of the matter, I think. How far are we, as humans, willing to relinquish our god-given dominion over our world?
I imagine it is similar to how every revolution can throw off a ruling government to replace it with another rule they imagine as somehow more sympathetic to them. As a species, we can still feel ourselves attached to political structures staffed by human bodies; we can still imagine ourselves as an extended part of that power structure, even if we as individuals are wholly subjugated to it. This association may only exist in the imagination (I suspect it does), but at least it is there.
Here you define human parts by their purpose and function; can you do the same with the human being?
Does this year's me not have to pay last year's me's debts then? Surely there must be some continuation.
I can sense a great joke here, but I can't put my finger on it.
It is speculative, but it is within our (hypothetical) ability to remove natural death, sickness and all that. And so it is possible to build ourselves up to a point where, according to our generation, we are no longer human.
In regards to the AI bit, Learning to love to hate robots - tech - 14 December 2009 - New Scientist
I daresay it's the other way around. Apparently, we're personifying robots and expecting them to follow social norms. We think they see the world the same way we do.
If one hand could draw the other hand at least a little better than the first hand, and then the finished hand improves the first hand a little bit more, and so on and so forth, can these hands not eventually become much, much greater?
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This pleases me.
Yes. But what would we be?
Not really, I don't think. What I see described in this article is the watered-down 'humanity' we afford to household pets--there is an emotional connection, to be sure, but the only people who seriously take it to the point of being 'human' are those who become vegetarians because they can't bear to eat anything with a face.Phoenix said:
Absolutely--that's the only way they could have gotten so far in the first place. But which hand directs that progress is the question we're asking.Phoenix said:
A being that cannot die, get ill, age or suffer, finally free of the human condition? I think it's pretty sui generis.
Akin to the watered-down humanity you described we afforded to slaves and such? My point is, even with Hollywood robots still being decades, if not centuries, away from what we currently have, we still personify them, and that's a pretty good sign.
Does it matter? After a while, they'll both be unrecognizable.
I exist only at your pleasure.
Also, Song of Ice and Fire is taken holy-good-god too long. I've forgotten like half of the plot. I remember that Tyrion's great, though.
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