The Truth About Axel and Namine

[gelandporn]

I was going to put this off and formulate it into a more coherent theory but decided to just pitch the idea.

So, Saix claims throughout Days that Axel has changed. And at one point he specifies- ever since Axel came back from Castle Oblivion, he has changed. Even Roxas notes that something is different about Axel since returning.

Now, what was Axel's objective in going to CO throughout Days? To find the Chamber of Waking.
And he claims that he did not.
Yet he has "changed."

Something went down that we're not being told about.
Let us say then for all intents and purposes that he DID find the Chamber of Waking and it is connected to this change. From there, we have two possibilities:

1. Axel lied about finding the chamber. This is not unlike Axel. He lies to Saix throughout Days about various things- even Saix notes as much when he address how "honest" Axel has been with him.

But Axel seems sincere about this. If there was any motive for him lying, we certainly didn't see even a hint of one. Which leads to the second option:

2. Axel wasn't aware that he found the Chamber of Waking.
And really, this too is not very surprising. The Organization found Castle Oblivion. If it were any old room they were looking for, it wouldn't have taken them this long to find it. Axel himself says, "If it's there, we're not gonna find it by just looking."

In other words, you cannot necessarily see the room. In a castle where the walls can be reflective of one's memories, then, perhaps this means that the Chamber of Waking is formed by individuals in the Castle with some kind of prerequisite (whether it lie in their memories or elsewhere). If you don't have that prerequisite, if you're not worthy per se, you won't ever find the room.

I think Axel found it. And he wasn't even aware that he did.

So how did the chamber make Axel change?
Well, we know of one thing that may set Axel apart from other Nobodies- emotion. Whereas other Nobodies act as if they have emotion, it has been hinted at that Axel's feelings may be sincere.

But Axel isn't the only one- there's Namine as well.
Namine exhibits emotion. And she was born in Castle Oblivion.
Perhaps she was born in the Chamber of Waking.

Whereas Roxas may have emotion for some other (Ven-related) reason, Axel and Namine are set apart. We see this in Axel's dialogue with Roxas in KH2FM. He claims that Roxas may very well have a heart, but then goes on to pose the question, "Do Namine and I really not have hearts?" Him AND Namine. He is well aware of Namine's ability to feel. How?

By literature, of course. Remember that random scene of Axel reading Vexen's "The Truth About Namine"? Kinda stuck out, didn't it? Well, Axel already had a pretty solid idea of Namine, so any "truth" revealed in that book had to have been something we don't know. (Had it been about, say, how Namine is Kairi's Nobody, it wouldn't make much sense considering that we already know that, so it would be pointless to hide its content).

So, Axel and Namine gain emotion through the Chamber of Waking. How this is done is what I've had trouble with- did they get real hearts, or do they feel through some other means?
And how does this fit into Xemnas' secret master plan (which Saix alluded to)?

The Chamber of Repose may make dreams or memories a reality (based on the Aqua scene)
and
The Chamber of Waking creates emotion through some unknown means (through some "awakening"?)

Combine the two and... what?
No clue.

There is something interesting to point out though- after Xion hacks the Organization computer, it is implied that she learns she was created in CO. So, after she goes to CO, we see her in one brief scene in the room where that crystal ball resided (where the top members hung out). She gazes into the ball and says something along the lines of, "So the person I saw before... it wasn't really me..."

That may be the room.

 

[Audo]

In the novels, it claims that Axel changed after having met the Riku Repliku. Something with him doubting the Organization or something like that. I think this is backed up by Axel's Secret Reports involving the Replicas.

 

[gelandporn]

Axel doesn't have any intimation of sympathy towards Repliku until Day 224:

"No, I don’t know if it was okay to have used the Riku Replica."
If he's only then having doubts due in large part to the realization that Xion is a replica, then I don't think this is the "change" Saix picks up on. I'm not denying that Repliku may have changed Axel's thinking somehow (about "doubting the Organization"), but there's much more to it than that.

Saix talks about how Axel has changed when Axel displays how he holds a bond with Xion/Roxas, ie when he seems to be showing emotion. And Saix would probably interpret this as Axel changing in that Axel is becoming deluded by the belief that he can have such a relationship (when, in actuality, he may very well have had the emotions necessary).

It should be noted that in the first tower scene when Axel returns he says, "I guess I just needed some time to sort my feelings out." (To which Roxas responds jokingly, not really picking up on the sincere tone.)

 

[Audo]

Eh, I'm thinking you may be going too deep into it. I mean, Axel claims Saix has changed too, but does that mean Saix was affected by the Chamber of Waking too?

 

[Igshar]

Eh, I'm thinking you may be going too deep into it. I mean, Axel claims Saix has changed too, but does that mean Saix was affected by the Chamber of Waking too?

I'm thinking Saix' change is from his human form to his Nobody form, rather than a change which occurred while he was in his Nobody form.

Also, with Axel's whole change, I'm thinking (without knowing of these novels and other things outside of the games themselves) that Sora is the one who changed Axel and made him doubt the Organization. He witnessed Sora losing his memories of Kairi and having them forcibly replaced by Namine memories. He witnessed the Organization effectively killing Sora's old self and replacing it with a new self for the sole purpose of being manipulated. Axel's feelings towards Roxas and Xion would have contributed to his feelings of guilt for being on the Organization's side against such a pure-hearted person. He might have become afraid that they could/would try and do that to Roxas/Xion/himself as well if they fell out of line.

 

[gelandporn]

Eh, I'm thinking you may be going too deep into it. I mean, Axel claims Saix has changed too, but does that mean Saix was affected by the Chamber of Waking too?

No, I got the impression that Saix's change was from becoming a Nobody- that he's steadily lost touch with the memories of his feelings.

Xigbar: "If you're supposed to see with your heart, you're blinder than the rest of us."

And I think you're forgetting the whole "Axel was crying" part of KH2FM.
Something happened. It's no coincidence that he suggests through his question that both he and Namine may have hearts.

And the idea that he has "changed" is recurring throughout Days.
Saix beats the idea into us.

Also, with Axel's whole change, I'm thinking (without knowing of these novels and other things outside of the games themselves) that Sora is the one who changed Axel and made him doubt the Organization. He witnessed Sora losing his memories of Kairi and having them forcibly replaced by Namine memories. He witnessed the Organization effectively killing Sora's old self and replacing it with a new self for the sole purpose of being manipulated. Axel's feelings towards Roxas and Xion would have contributed to his feelings of guilt for being on the Organization's side against such a pure-hearted person. He might have become afraid that they could/would try and do that to Roxas/Xion/himself as well if they fell out of line.

You're right, I wouldn't deny that Sora has something to do with it. Axel says so himself.
After all: "He made me feel... like I had a heart. It's funny... you make me feel... the same."

But it isn't guilt.
I believe the term they use is "ambitious" (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Audo]

Axel crying is iffy at best if you ask me. The scene took place after Axel had died afterall...

Random but: The Room of Awakening existed before Castle Oblivion. I thought that was an interesting tidbit. o.o

 

[Smile]

She gazes into the ball and says something along the lines of, "So the person I saw before... it wasn't really me..."

That may be the room.

I kind of remember the Org member in CoM using that sphere to spy on Sora and the gang. So unless I'm mistaken, that might mean they had feelings too by that logic o,o

I'm not sure I like this theory, but it does make sense and would tie a lot of loose ends together.
I would take Saix saying Axel's changed with a grain of sat though. I mean, the whole thing between Axel and Saix is that Saix was using Axel by pulling on his guilt from their past friendship. If we're to believe Axel is anything - it's a friend. It's shown throughout Days and KH2 as well, to the point Axel admits himself to be a traitor.
Saix saying Axel changed might be a reaction to Saix's own change - which they both admit happened in the Secret Reports. They both reflect about each other and themselves. I don't really think you can say for certain Saix's change is that he forgot the feelings attached to friendship - despite it all, he did seem to have some semblance of affection and attatchment towards "Lea", even if that ebbed significantly in time for KH2 but that could be seen by him having no choice in light of Axel's blunt betrayal.

Namine is also another issue that gets me. We still can't say for certain Roxas is capable of feeling through Ven, and if it will be because of Sora, or that both Sora and Kairi aren't Heartless, Roxas and Namine share their explanation of being able to feel.

Time will tell, I guess.

 

[gelandporn]

Axel crying is iffy at best if you ask me. The scene took place after Axel had died afterall...

It's supposed to be ambiguous, of course.
Axel says, "Man this ice cream is salty!" and turns quickly away (saltiness is used as an excuse when someone is crying). And then there's the tear drop, which could arguably be a drop of ice cream.

But even if you say, "Well, it was after he died, it might not be the same," there are still strong suggestions that he had emotion while he was still kicking.

Let's take another spin on this.

Roxas, who exhibits emotions like a human, is even asked by Axel if he actually has a heart. The other Organization members show many times through their behaviour that they have nothing but the appearance of emotions. Roxas is a Nobody, a "being without a heart", but do he and the other Organization members really not have hearts? Will hints about this be revealed in BbS too?

The hearts (and feelings) of the other Organization members are brought to question. They obviously all don't have hearts and/or emotions, but it is implied that some of them may.

No one would deny that Axel is one that falls under this category.
So if Axel has a heart and/or emotions, there are two possibilities:
- He has always been like that, ever since he became a Nobody.
- He changed.

And, again, there's emphasis in Days about how he "changed." Specifically, changed after CO. And there's no way Axel would have always had a heart and/or emotions. "He made me feel... like I had a heart. It's funny... you make me feel... the same." Only some time after Roxas arrived on the scene did he experience emotion.

Random but: The Room of Awakening existed before Castle Oblivion. I thought that was an interesting tidbit. o.o

Yeah, I was surprised when I read that.

I kind of remember the Org member in CoM using that sphere to spy on Sora and the gang. So unless I'm mistaken, that might mean they had feelings too by that logic o,o

I wasn't really using that for evidence or anything, just thought it was interesting to point out. More like a shot in the dark.

If the Organization members can use it to see things happening elsewhere, what was Xion seeing and why did it make her say that? Could she have been using the crystal ball's seeing capabilities beyond just looking elsewhere? (Saix said the Chamber of Waking held all of the answers... and Xion got her answer). Just something that stood out for me.

 

[Smile]

If the Organization members can use it to see things happening elsewhere, what was Xion seeing and why did it make her say that? Could she have been using the crystal ball's seeing capabilities beyond just looking elsewhere? (Saix said the Chamber of Waking held all of the answers... and Xion got her answer). Just something that stood out for me.

It might just be something inside the castle. Xion used it to see what happened in the past, and then saw what she remembered - from the outside, hence seeing that the one acting out the role she remembered acting out was actually Sora and not "her".

EDIT: replaying, and the name of Day 72, which is right after when Axel gets back, is "Change."
Which is right after Axel had to sort his feelings, which you mentioned before. And then the Saix-Axel scene. And Axel even wanting to go after Pete.
So keeping this theory while playing is certainly a nice experience.

Axel: You're more outgoing now
Roxas: Yeah? Well, you are, too.
Axel: Me? You think? Guess he musta rubbed off on me.
I wonder if Sora really is all that had to do with this.

Axel agreeing to ask Saix about Xion for Roxas since she's a friend of a friend.
Even Roxas went as far as write in his Diary that "He seems different now that he's back from C.O."
And yes I'll update this post with anything I find. Thank me damn you, I'm supporting this XD;

 

[Guilded.Raven]

Hmm... Facinating, facinating...

Quite creative, I never really thought of it that way, but now that you mention it... I noticed that, too.

All the other members seem very stagnant and almost robot-like at times, save a few (Obviously including Axel and Roxas). The way they talk and act implies that they have hearts, or are in some way connected to them, and not just remembering what it was like... You really do see a change in Axel's behavior.

But when you think about it, Axel really wasn't the one that changed. He simply (in a sense) went back to the way he was before.

The tears, too, imply sooo much... Hmm... I need to dig up some more info on this topic...

Ok, finished watching the video and those are TEARS. Not ice cream.

 

[Naximi]

You used my theory! Yay! :36:

 

[Smile]

But when you think about it, Axel really wasn't the one that changed. He simply (in a sense) went back to the way he was before.

We have no idea what that way was. But regardless, even if he did 'revert' - it's still a change.

 

[Reika]

I just want to point out two things:

So, Saix claims throughout Days that Axel has changed. And at one point he specifies- ever since Axel came back from Castle Oblivion, he has changed. Even Roxas notes that something is different about Axel since returning.

It was implied that Sora is what changed Axel. Axel said as much:
Axel: I guess he must have rubbed off on me.
Roxas: Who?
Axel: Let's just say you can thank yourself for me sitting here and eating ice cream with you.
(not exact dialogue, but that's what he said in a nutshell)

Whereas Roxas may have emotion for some other (Ven-related) reason, Axel and Namine are set apart. We see this in Axel's dialogue with Roxas in KH2FM. He claims that Roxas may very well have a heart, but then goes on to pose the question, "Do Namine and I really not have hearts?" Him AND Namine. He is well aware of Namine's ability to feel. How?

Namine's ability to feel was obvious. Didn't other organization members, like Larxene or Marluxia, mention that Namine may have had feelings for Sora? So if they realized it, it makes sense that Axel would have, too.

 

[Smile]

Namine is a Nobody born of all but nothing though, and who not only had her Heart not as a Heartless, but also came from a Princess of Heart. While I agree this theory might not hold for Namine, Axel changing is rather a big motive inside Days that seems to go beyond Sora relations.

 

[robertexe]

I just want to point out two things:



It was implied that Sora is what changed Axel. Axel said as much:
Axel: I guess he must have rubbed off on me.
Roxas: Who?
Axel: Let's just say you can thank yourself for me sitting here and eating ice cream with you.
(not exact dialogue, but that's what he said in a nutshell)




Namine's ability to feel was obvious. Didn't other organization members, like Larxene or Marluxia, mention that Namine may have had feelings for Sora? So if they realized it, it makes sense that Axel would have, too.

yea,Sora changed Axel.Period.

 

[White Mushroom]

I was going to put this off and formulate it into a more coherent theory but decided to just pitch the idea.

So, Saix claims throughout Days that Axel has changed. And at one point he specifies- ever since Axel came back from Castle Oblivion, he has changed. Even Roxas notes that something is different about Axel since returning.

Now, what was Axel's objective in going to CO throughout Days? To find the Chamber of Waking.
And he claims that he did not.
Yet he has "changed."

Something went down that we're not being told about.
Let us say then for all intents and purposes that he DID find the Chamber of Waking and it is connected to this change. From there, we have two possibilities:

1. Axel lied about finding the chamber. This is not unlike Axel. He lies to Saix throughout Days about various things- even Saix notes as much when he address how "honest" Axel has been with him.

But Axel seems sincere about this. If there was any motive for him lying, we certainly didn't see even a hint of one. Which leads to the second option:

2. Axel wasn't aware that he found the Chamber of Waking.
And really, this too is not very surprising. The Organization found Castle Oblivion. If it were any old room they were looking for, it wouldn't have taken them this long to find it. Axel himself says, "If it's there, we're not gonna find it by just looking."

In other words, you cannot necessarily see the room. In a castle where the walls can be reflective of one's memories, then, perhaps this means that the Chamber of Waking is formed by individuals in the Castle with some kind of prerequisite (whether it lie in their memories or elsewhere). If you don't have that prerequisite, if you're not worthy per se, you won't ever find the room.

I think Axel found it. And he wasn't even aware that he did.

So how did the chamber make Axel change?
Well, we know of one thing that may set Axel apart from other Nobodies- emotion. Whereas other Nobodies act as if they have emotion, it has been hinted at that Axel's feelings may be sincere.

But Axel isn't the only one- there's Namine as well.
Namine exhibits emotion. And she was born in Castle Oblivion.
Perhaps she was born in the Chamber of Waking.

Whereas Roxas may have emotion for some other (Ven-related) reason, Axel and Namine are set apart. We see this in Axel's dialogue with Roxas in KH2FM. He claims that Roxas may very well have a heart, but then goes on to pose the question, "Do Namine and I really not have hearts?" Him AND Namine. He is well aware of Namine's ability to feel. How?

By literature, of course. Remember that random scene of Axel reading Vexen's "The Truth About Namine"? Kinda stuck out, didn't it? Well, Axel already had a pretty solid idea of Namine, so any "truth" revealed in that book had to have been something we don't know. (Had it been about, say, how Namine is Kairi's Nobody, it wouldn't make much sense considering that we already know that, so it would be pointless to hide its content).

So, Axel and Namine gain emotion through the Chamber of Waking. How this is done is what I've had trouble with- did they get real hearts, or do they feel through some other means?
And how does this fit into Xemnas' secret master plan (which Saix alluded to)?

The Chamber of Repose may make dreams or memories a reality (based on the Aqua scene)
and
The Chamber of Waking creates emotion through some unknown means (through some "awakening"?)

Combine the two and... what?
No clue.

There is something interesting to point out though- after Xion hacks the Organization computer, it is implied that she learns she was created in CO. So, after she goes to CO, we see her in one brief scene in the room where that crystal ball resided (where the top members hung out). She gazes into the ball and says something along the lines of, "So the person I saw before... it wasn't really me..."

That may be the room.

Yes finally I have answers! Your amazing once again you've done it! The two rooms : one grants power, one grants completion
Together granting the Organization's goals. Yays for understanding!

 

[Memory Master]

So are you saying that when a nobody enters the room of waking, it awakens their emotions?

 

[White Mushroom]

from my understanding something along those lines, yes.

 

[akuroku__k3]

I've heard of a theory where Sora is the Chamber of Waking. Credit goes to the person can't remember who thought sorry. Anyways if we mix both these theories together then it turns out a bit like this.

Sora is CoW which would explain why no-one found it. If the CoW grants people their hearts/feelings then Sora must have at least some control over this decision, unconscious decision of course.

See, all the members of the organization except for Axel, Roxas and Namine, Sora has seen as enemies. That just there already gives the rest of the members a negative connection which would explain why the rest of the members do not have any emotions. However, Axel is not completely an enemy to Sora. He did help Namine escape which could've made Sora believe that Axel is not an entirely bad person which makes that positive connection and open up an unseen gateway to CoW.

This would also explain Namine's side. Seeing how the gateway to CoW can only be given to those Sora trust or feel for in one way or another. Even though Namine had messed up Sora's memories, their friendship still stayed strong.

And it works with Roxas! Roxas is Sora's nobody which already makes a deep connection between the two and even though the two hadn't exactly met, the gateway was still opened up for Roxas.

Long story short:

-Sora is CoW
-CoW cannot be detected by the naked eye
-Sora must have some positive connection for someone to enter CoW
-CoW gives people hearts/emotions

Wow I suck at summarising. But I hope that got the point through