Small contradiction

[Phoenix]

Science is a created art. No humans = no science.

Justice is also a human construct, and it's the epitome of objectiveness, even if nobody is objective. Are you saying that conceptual justice doesn't exist at all?

Yeah, most parents I know aren't into the whole ONE SIN AND YOU BURN IN HELL!!!! kind of rant, and feel that the odds are extremely high.

Then they're hypocrites, because that means they don't really believe the risk is as real as, say, a car crash.

A child that does not live may also not be able to go into heaven, and so parents may also be balancing off eternal hapiness and eternal suffering.

So much for faith.

 

[CK the Fat]

Justice is also a human construct, and it's the epitome of objectiveness, even if nobody is objective. Are you saying that conceptual justice doesn't exist at all?

Conceptually, sure, it exists. But like science, it's impossible to get objective because it is humans that administer it.

Then they're hypocrites, because that means they don't really believe the risk is as real as, say, a car crash.

Everyone's a hypocrite, why should Christian ones be any worse?

So much for faith.

The Catholics did believe for SURE that unbaptized babies went to purgatory; they had perfect faith in that aspect.

 

[Phoenix]

Conceptually, sure, it exists. But like science, it's impossible to get objective because it is humans that administer it.

Exactly my points. Science is objective, scientists aren't.

Everyone's a hypocrite, why should Christian ones be any worse?

Because they believe in eternal torture and find it fair. Surely you agree this is.... wow.

The Catholics did believe for SURE that unbaptized babies went to purgatory; they had perfect faith in that aspect.

Do they believe that now?

 

[CK the Fat]

Because they believe in eternal torture and find it fair. Surely you agree this is.... wow.

All Christians?

Do they believe that now?

Ask a Catholic

 

[Phoenix]

All Christians?

Most Christians believe in hell, and most Christians believe God is always fair.

Ask a Catholic

This is an all-catholic country. I went to an all-catholic school. No they don't.

 

[CK the Fat]

Most Christians believe in hell, and most Christians believe God is always fair.

Believe, or nod their heads and listen?

This is an all-catholic country. I went to an all-catholic school. No they don't.

But will you admit, there are most likely Catholics still out there who hang on to the older ideas and beliefs?

 

[Phoenix]

Believe, or nod their heads and listen?

That's their official belief, though. I'm attacking that, not hypocrisy XD

But will you admit, there are most likely Catholics still out there who hang on to the older ideas and beliefs?

In the 21st century? I hope not.

 

[CK the Fat]

In the 21st century? I hope not.

But you agree that the possibility exists. So if a an-ideology Catholic believed in purgatory and all, would he still be a hypocrite for not killing his baby?

 

[Phoenix]

No, but most don't believe that. They believe all innocent go to Heaven.

 

[KrytenKoro]

Well, if you were really loving parents, you wouldn't care about what happens to you as long as your child is safe, healthy and happy.

Because that's not love. Especially not Christian love. In any case, "teh Bible tells us" that we are supposed to look after our own soul - this will lead to us being good people, but we are supposed to be concerned with our own soul above all but God.

No, but most don't believe that. They believe all innocent go to Heaven.

Source? Especially for the rampant absolutes you like to use?

 

[Phoenix]

Because that's not love. Especially not Christian love. In any case, "teh Bible tells us" that we are supposed to look after our own soul - this will lead to us being good people, but we are supposed to be concerned with our own soul above all but God.

So, in Christian belief, your own soul matters more than your son's? LOL

Source? Especially for the rampant absolutes you like to use?

"Thus by 1992 the Catechism of the Catholic Church could express the hope that children who die unbaptised might still be saved:

CCC #1261 states:

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children, which caused him to say, 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them' [Mark 10:14, cf. 1 Tim. 2:4], allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism.

The International Theological Commission was asked by Pope John Paul II to consider the question of the fate of unbaptized babies. Under Pope Benedict XVI, the Commission is expected to recommend in their report that the doctrine that all children who die do so “in the hope of eternal salvation” be formally adopted, thus rejecting the theological hypothesis of Limbo. The report was to be published towards the end of 2006, but is still unpublished as of January 2007."

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. You might believe it, Kryten.

 

[KrytenKoro]

So, in Christian belief, your own soul matters more than your son's? LOL

To myself? No. Are you suggesting that it would be a good thing to allow myself to commit sin in an attempt to convince someone else to accept goodness? The most any person can do for another is to set a good example - it is fruitless and impossible to sacrifice your own soul for someone else's. Otherwise, someone would have sold their soul so that all others go to Heaven a long time ago.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. You might believe it, Kryten.

So the fact that they say "We can only hope" about five times in two paragraphs makes you think that they absolutely believe babies go to heaven? No, and the point is that they don't. The HOPE the child goes to heaven - just like I hope even people like Osama bin Laden or Saddam somehow accept goodness and go to heaven. The whole point of the New Testament, and almost all of the Old, is that only God is a factor in our entrance to Heaven - physical characteristics like age or birth, nobility of birth, or being a Brahman have nothing to do with it.

Do you seriously believe that the Catholic Church would ever claim that such characteristics were the deciding factor?

All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism.

This seriously didn't ring any bells that you didn't know what the hell you were talking about? The line itself breathes the possibility of damnation of the little ones, and that we must do everything we can to TRY to prevent it.

But will you admit, there are most likely Catholics still out there who hang on to the older ideas and beliefs?

If you mean the incidental, societal beliefs like the allowance of slavery or no, than no. If you mean the religious beliefs, than THAT IS WHAT THE DEFINITION IS FOR BEING CATHOLIC.

Remove cranium from posterior. Repeat as necessary.

 

[KrytenKoro]

-This comment was removed at the request of the poster-

 

[violent_anger]

pho, aren't you acting like the only way a person could possibly get into heaven is to kill them as a baby? if you raise the child well, then he or she will go to heaven anyways

 

[dchi]

A person gets into heaven because God chooses to let them in, despite all their transgressions. If a baby dies or an old man dies, they will enter the Kingdom of God so long as he/she/it sees fit.

 

[Phoenix]

To myself? No. Are you suggesting that it would be a good thing to allow myself to commit sin in an attempt to convince someone else to accept goodness? The most any person can do for another is to set a good example - it is fruitless and impossible to sacrifice your own soul for someone else's. Otherwise, someone would have sold their soul so that all others go to Heaven a long time ago.

So again, so you don't have to sin, you'd willingly and happily run the chance of having your children be tortured.

So the fact that they say "We can only hope" about five times in two paragraphs makes you think that they absolutely believe babies go to heaven? No, and the point is that they don't. The HOPE the child goes to heaven - just like I hope even people like Osama bin Laden or Saddam somehow accept goodness and go to heaven. The whole point of the New Testament, and almost all of the Old, is that only God is a factor in our entrance to Heaven - physical characteristics like age or birth, nobility of birth, or being a Brahman have nothing to do with it.

Do you seriously believe that the Catholic Church would ever claim that such characteristics were the deciding factor?

That has to do with what you quoted how?

pho, aren't you acting like the only way a person could possibly get into heaven is to kill them as a baby? if you raise the child well, then he or she will go to heaven anyways

Not really. He can become a Muslim. He can become Jewish. He can become a Wiccan. Buddhist, Hinduist, or more likely, he can become a hypocrite. So there's a very real chance he'll veer from the way of the Lord. Then a car hits him. He dies. He's off to be tortured.