Sephiroth

[XAndrew]

I think a lot of people forget that video game production (especially from major producers) is not a democracy. Sure they’ll consider what fans may say or ask for, but at the end of the day they are gonna tell the story they want to tell and make the gameplay decisions they want to make. FF has not had a major role in KH for AWHILE now, there is absolutely no reason that’s going to change outside of “the fans keep asking for it”. TWEWY may play a role going forward, but that’s still not a guarantee.

I mean the people making these titles already have quite a list of expectations and requirements for what the focus of any particular game is, they are not going to be overly swayed by public want, especially considering that even if they did do that the majority would still be displeased with the end result.

Remind is a perfect example of how far fan outcry will actually get you, a mini episode featuring said characters for five minutes of screen time. Not really trying to attack anyone here, just wanted to voice this since nowadays there’s this weird misconception that if fans beg and plead and protest enough, these major game producers are actually going to do something about those complaints (i.e. Pokémon Sw/Sh National Dex, Smash DLC fighters, etc.)

This. All of this.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

God forbid a JRPG have subplots and filler, that would be a real mold breaker.

^ And look at how KH3's story focusing on just the "main" plot points made it so under the bare minimum, everything needed to be ridiculously stretched out.

I'd rather KH3's story be so filled with plot threads and characters that everything barely gets proper time than a story that barely has anything and still isn't given proper time. Like, I'm pretty sure most people would rather be full than starving.

And this is the thing: Not every subplot needs to be forced into the "main" story. Even in KH2, we could skip through a lot of Disney worlds and even the last part of Hollow Bastion. Parting a game's story to the "A" plot you need to play through, a "B" plot sidequest that has parts appear in A, but is mostly optional, and extra little optional scenes/sidequests littered throughout would flesh things out without having to cram everything into one and even make the writing itself easier to do (theoretically.)


---
Since this thread is about FF (well, specifically Sephiroth, but of course it'd turn into a discussion about FF in KH,) most y'all know my stance on the whole thing and I don't feel like getting big angry today. Now, I will say I'm mostly fine with Sephiroth not appearing in KH3 in any way. Canonically, he left RG in KH2 with Cloud, so it makes sense story-wise for why neither are around, but I do agree that not having even a non-canon battlegate is a real bummer.

 

[DarknessInZero]

The arguments against the FF cast are also weak because the Sephiroth fight ended in a cliffhanger. There is a story waiting to be resolved. If Nomura truly meant that the FF characters are only akin to Easter eggs, then why did he expand the story from KH1 to 2? In the original, Seph was nothing more than a cute Easter Egg boss. Nomura then made the decision to incorporate him more into the story. So it isn't the fans fault for having "weird expectations" when the man himself literally expanded his role from 1 to 2 and ending on a cliffhanger ffs.

I think Nomura liked the concept of Cloud being or looking for light and Seph being an embodiment of darkness that he used this concept unto Ven/Vanitas. And to make sure it doesn't look like a rehash, he deleted the Cloud/Seph story from existence.

I liked it better with Cloud/Seph.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

The arguments against the FF cast are also weak because the Sephiroth fight ended in a cliffhanger. There is a story waiting to be resolved. If Nomura truly meant that the FF characters are only akin to Easter eggs, then why did he expand the story from KH1 to 2? In the original, Seph was nothing more than a cute Easter Egg boss. Nomura then made the decision to incorporate him more into the story. So it isn't the fans fault for having "weird expectations" when the man himself literally expanded his role from 1 to 2 and ending on a cliffhanger ffs.

I think Nomura liked the concept of Cloud being or looking for light and Seph being an embodiment of darkness that he used this concept unto Ven/Vanitas. And to make sure it doesn't look like a rehash, he deleted the Cloud/Seph story from existence.

I liked it better with Cloud/Seph.

This also makes me think about all he's done with Aqua, but is confused why people like her and freaked out at Dark Aqua in the trailer. Like, dude, you made her important. You made having character's hair and eyes change to white and yellow mean something really bad. It's not our fault we're the only ones paying attention to the story you made.

And it's the same with the FF cast. Nomura didn't have to integrate them the way they have been. If they were only ever meant to be cute guest appearances with no connection to the story, then don't go out of your way make them part of it in the first place.

They're not even really FF characters, but original characters with an FF skin.

 

[drew0512]

The arguments against the FF cast are also weak because the Sephiroth fight ended in a cliffhanger. There is a story waiting to be resolved. If Nomura truly meant that the FF characters are only akin to Easter eggs, then why did he expand the story from KH1 to 2? In the original, Seph was nothing more than a cute Easter Egg boss. Nomura then made the decision to incorporate him more into the story. So it isn't the fans fault for having "weird expectations" when the man himself literally expanded his role from 1 to 2 and ending on a cliffhanger ffs.

I think Nomura liked the concept of Cloud being or looking for light and Seph being an embodiment of darkness that he used this concept unto Ven/Vanitas. And to make sure it doesn't look like a rehash, he deleted the Cloud/Seph story from existence.

It's called Advent Children and KH2's job was to advertise it.

 

[DarknessInZero]

It's called Advent Children and KH2's job was to advertise it.

Oh you're right! That changes everything. If only there was a game called Final Fantasy 7 Remake coming out in April that KH could have also promoted.

 

[drew0512]

Oh you're right! That changes everything. If only there was a game called Final Fantasy 7 Remake coming out in April that KH could have also promoted.

How is this even connected with the message I quoted?

 

[Zettaflare]

I think my biggest disappointment about Sephiroth not having a subplot in KH3 was that we never got to find out what happened to Zack. The last we saw of him he disappeared when that black feather touched him.

I would like for that be resolved but with Nomura you can never be sure

 

[Elysium]

I think Nomura liked the concept of Cloud being or looking for light and Seph being an embodiment of darkness that he used this concept unto Ven/Vanitas. And to make sure it doesn't look like a rehash, he deleted the Cloud/Seph story from existence.

I liked it better with Cloud/Seph.

I've never thought about that before. They are very similar. And I agree, Cloud v. Sephiroth did it better. I have never liked Ventus or Vanitas.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

I think my biggest disappointment about Sephiroth not having a subplot in KH3 was that we never got to find out what happened to Zack. The last we saw of him he disappeared when that black feather touched him.

I would like for that be resolved but with Nomura you can never be sure

Change the black feather to be from Genesis.

 

[DarknessInZero]

How is this even connected with the message I quoted?

Oh God, not the lame, tired "how is this even related lolz xDDDD" cop out of an argument. Try again

 

[2 quid is good]

This also makes me think about all he's done with Aqua, but is confused why people like her and freaked out at Dark Aqua in the trailer. Like, dude, you made her important. You made having character's hair and eyes change to white and yellow mean something really bad. It's not our fault we're the only ones paying attention to the story you made.

And it's the same with the FF cast. Nomura didn't have to integrate them the way they have been. If they were only ever meant to be cute guest appearances with no connection to the story, then don't go out of your way make them part of it in the first place.

They're not even really FF characters, but original characters with an FF skin.

This is pretty much it. For everything in KH3 that was either removed or had a reduced role, was only missed so much because their importance had been up-played(?) by Nomura himself across multiple different entries. It's not at all fans' expectations running wild like people are trying to say.

I saw a reddit post not so long ago where someone shared the gamers joint tweet from a few years back on how he thought Sephiroth was a shoo-in for KH3. To my surprise the highest upvoted comment was a particularly angry one aimed at all of the Kh youtubers for stoking the fan's expectations too high, which is why there was disappointment.

Just no man, not at all. You can't blame youtubers for stoking people's expectations for this when it was Nomura himself who decided to include Sephiroth in KH1, KH2 and then a hint of him in BBS.

I mean, let's just go through the list of neutered KH concepts in KH3:
- Original Worlds (I didn't wanna make the list too long by naming them individually)
- 100 Acre Wood
- Dive to the Heart
- FF characters
- KH Subplots (Kairi's memories, Aqua's armour, Xemnas' connection to the armour I know what the ultimania says about this but it's such BS )

I think that's all of them. I mean, is it any wonder people are still discussing all the ins and outs of the game over a year later? there's a lot of potential for more there.

 

[Eonstar890]

The last time FF had a major role that was integrated into mainline KH was KH2, which came out in 2006 globally.. 14 years ago.

Since then we have gotten
358/2 Days
BBS
Coded
DDD

All of which had no major inclusion of FF characters, and looking at DDD they really should have been there for the RG scenes.
Story wise, it is a flop that they fell off the face of the earth, but that was evident back in 2012 when DDD was released. Also I kind of feel like the significance of FF characters is being a bit over emphasized, when the only games they had a real presence in were KH and KH2.. like that's literally it. (Outside of rehashes like CoM or Coded, but those aren't true new interactions, just reiterations) Yes BBS had Zack (which I absolutely love and wish we got to see more of) but I am not surprised that never went anywhere else seeing as how that prequel takes place ten years in the past.

So basically, I don't agree that the team was putting a ginormous emphasis on FF. The emphasis is equivalent to a Disney world like Agrabah or Wonderland. The main difference being that FF characters more directly affect the main story, but once again, that hasn't been the case since 2006.

And the larger the KH universe has gotten, the less space there has been for FF. It is sad to see it go, but now with all the new characters being introduced through UX and the Secret Episode/Verum Rex, its even less likely for them to get the spotlight here.

I think the fan expectation was mainly there because it was KH3 and FF had a big role in one and two, but in reality that was a long time ago, and that has not been a consistent trend in any of the other games.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

I think there's a division in the fandom concerning the Cloud-Sephiroth subplot. Some believe Cloud left to confront his inner Darkness (Sephiroth), while others believe it's still a cliffhanger.

 

[2 quid is good]

The last time FF had a major role that was integrated into mainline KH was KH2, which came out in 2006 globally.. 14 years ago.

Since then we have gotten
358/2 Days
BBS
Coded
DDD

All of which had no major inclusion of FF characters, and looking at DDD they really should have been there for the RG scenes.
Story wise, it is a flop that they fell off the face of the earth, but that was evident back in 2012 when DDD was released. Also I kind of feel like the significance of FF characters is being a bit over emphasized, when the only games they had a real presence in were KH and KH2.. like that's literally it. (Outside of rehashes like CoM or Coded, but those aren't true new interactions, just reiterations) Yes BBS had Zack (which I absolutely love and wish we got to see more of) but I am not surprised that never went anywhere else seeing as how that prequel takes place ten years in the past.

So basically, I don't agree that the team was putting a ginormous emphasis on FF. The emphasis is equivalent to a Disney world like Agrabah or Wonderland. The main difference being that FF characters more directly affect the main story, but once again, that hasn't been the case since 2006.

And the larger the KH universe has gotten, the less space there has been for FF. It is sad to see it go, but now with all the new characters being introduced through UX and the Secret Episode/Verum Rex, its even less likely for them to get the spotlight here.

I think the fan expectation was mainly there because it was KH3 and FF had a big role in one and two, but in reality that was a long time ago, and that has not been a consistent trend in any of the other games.

And not one of the games you listed where console games, and we got Twewy in a substantial role in DDD. Wouldn't really make sense to have Leon be in a sleeping world. As for Days, it's the most KH title ever, if that game could get rid of disney worlds it probably would. I still think FF characters could have shown up in the background perhaps, I think seifer only got a mention, but a DS game can only go so far.

The point is KH3 as a home console game was supposed to be a return to "form", with "form" being KH1 and KH2. Sure the FF has been diminishing in recent titles, but the size of the game should be taken into account too. We already know that BBS was gonna include young restoration committee but the psp could only allow for so much, or at least that's what we were told.

I don't think anyone here expected them to be as centre stage as in KH2, but we at least thought there'd be a short radiant garden segment. There's enough subplots in that world for it to be justified. I think it's pretty revisionist to say it was obvious all along they'd be cut, when the most recent title had Five square enix characters in a not insignificant role.

I'm sure the line of thinking was: "if Twewy can get a look in hhen we're sure to get Cloud, maybe even Lightning or Noctis"

You can't deny it was a large enough part of the entire KH3 hype cycle; discussing which characters would make it in (and I say would, because it was almost unthinkable for them to not be in)

As for their importance, what exactly do you mean by that? Is importance how many plot threads a character can rattle off in quick succession? Or is it a character who brings life to a scene with a fun personality? In terms of KH both are pretty necessary, if I could though I'd totally do away with the former.

They may not have main plot ties any longer, it's debatable if they even did in KH2, but they are pretty entertaining, moreso than 90% of the current cast, and I feel like that's pretty important for a game that was made for entertaining. Until they are replaced with something equal or better in entertainment value, I would never discount their importance.

 

[Eonstar890]

And not one of the games you listed where console games, and we got Twewy in a substantial role in DDD. Wouldn't really make sense to have Leon be in a sleeping world. As for Days, it's the most KH title ever, if that game could get rid of disney worlds it probably would. I still think FF characters could have shown up in the background perhaps, I think seifer only got a mention, but a DS game can only go so far.

The point is KH3 as a home console game was supposed to be a return to "form", with "form" being KH1 and KH2. Sure the FF has been diminishing in recent titles, but the size of the game should be taken into account too. We already know that BBS was gonna include young restoration committee but the psp could only allow for so much, or at least that's what we were told.

I don't think anyone here expected them to be as centre stage as in KH2, but we at least thought there'd be a short radiant garden segment. There's enough subplots in that world for it to be justified. I think it's pretty revisionist to say it was obvious all along they'd be cut, when the most recent title had Five square enix characters in a not insignificant role.

I'm sure the line of thinking was: "if Twewy can get a look in hhen we're sure to get Cloud, maybe even Lightning or Noctis"

You can't deny it was a large enough part of the entire KH3 hype cycle; discussing which characters would make it in (and I say would, because it was almost unthinkable for them to not be in)

As for their importance, what exactly do you mean by that? Is importance how many plot threads a character can rattle off in quick succession? Or is it a character who brings life to a scene with a fun personality? In terms of KH both are pretty necessary, if I could though I'd totally do away with the former.

They may not have main plot ties any longer, it's debatable if they even did in KH2, but they are pretty entertaining, moreso than 90% of the current cast, and I feel like that's pretty important for a game that was made for entertaining. Until they are replaced with something equal or better in entertainment value, I would never discount their importance.

I wouldn't say it was obvious, nor would I say FF characters shouldn't have been in KH3. I am saying in retrospect, that it does make sense for the decision to have gone the way it did. And moving forward people shouldn't expect that decision to change.

I think you're being a bit subjective on some of your points. While you may find them more entertaining than the main casts, that is a personal sentiment, not a factual one. As far as the return to form thing, once again I wouldn't say I considered the FF cast as being essential to the numbered titles, placing them that high is also a bit subjective. I never said anything pertaining to importance, but I guess my overall thought on this is that they don't make any actions that affect the main story making them less important than the main cast. Like I said to me they are equivalent to Disney characters.

I would like to reiterate that I totally understand the reasons people have for being upset or disappointed with their exclusion from KH3, and I would agree that they could have had a bigger more positive impact on the game (as could have several other things). But FF is Kingdom Heart's past, not its future, and people shouldn't keep their hopes up and keep banging on this door when it hasn't been used substantially in so long.

 

[2 quid is good]

I wouldn't say it was obvious, nor would I say FF characters shouldn't have been in KH3. I am saying in retrospect, that it does make sense for the decision to have gone the way it did. And moving forward people shouldn't expect that decision to change.

I won't quote your whole post, but just to address your first point, if it wasn't obvious to fans then why did so many automatically assume their inclusion? And yes, hindsight is 20/20, I completely understand why KH3 is the way it is, and what ifs will kill us.

I'm sure I've mentioned previously, but I have zero faith at all that they will return. I also don't believe original worlds will be as commonplace and central as they used to be, KH3 was so wildly financially successful that they're sure to copy the "hit" formula.

And as for your last point, while I don't think they will ever turn up in KH again, there's no reason why FF can't be KHs future. There's a wealth of untapped potential there, people are free to bang on any door they please, it's not like the plot and world building concerns fans have are ever listened to.

 

[Face My Fears]

Not having a bigger role for the FF7 characters to hype up the remake is one of the biggest missed opportunities you can have in marketing and promo.

A PR intern could have came up with this idea, mind boggling idea to not include them. I think it's purely out of spite.

Not really... if anything, it's the obvious thing to do and thus kinda comes off tacky (like forcing Frozen in KH3 and having the movie plot play out WITHOUT Sora's involvement).

 

[Elysium]

I think there's a division in the fandom concerning the Cloud-Sephiroth subplot. Some believe Cloud left to confront his inner Darkness (Sephiroth), while others believe it's still a cliffhanger.

I've noticed that, although I've only seen this division since KH3 came out without FF characters and it's usually coming from people who simply want to dismiss all the criticism one way or another. I didn't remember anyone saying the plot was resolved before then really. *shrug* I can't imagine looking at the end of that with Cloud and Sephiroth disappearing into thin air and thinking it must be over. I assumed Sephiroth would be finally "destroyed" in the same game Xehanort is finally destroyed in (and Squall would reunite with Rinoa as well), or that at least Cloud would reappear having finally vanquished him. Oh, well.

I mean, let's just go through the list of neutered KH concepts in KH3:
- Original Worlds (I didn't wanna make the list too long by naming them individually)
- 100 Acre Wood
- Dive to the Heart
- FF characters
- KH Subplots (Kairi's memories, Aqua's armour, Xemnas' connection to the armour I know what the ultimania says about this but it's such BS )

I'd throw the coliseum tournaments in there.

 

[Face My Fears]

I'm all for characters/plots appearing if they help enhance the main story. Cloud/Sephiroth's battle had nothing to do with KH3's already jam-packed story and there was absolutely no build or reference to it since KH2.

Now if Sora comes across Cloud/Sephiroth in Shibuya or while he's dead and they find a way to make a plot out of it that will: 1) reunite Cloud with the FF gang (thus giving Radiant Garden another purpose to reappear) and 2) help build the main plot using an established relationship that Sora had, I will be all for it.

Imagine a Sora/Cloud vs. Yozora/Sephiroth fight in Shibuya to start the game lol.