Separation

[Savior of Dawn]

The separation of Church and State is a big deal in the U.S., whether its athiests complaining pledging yourself to the Christian god daily, or devout Christians/Catholics/Muslims/(Other various god-believing religions) kicking and screaming about teaching science in science class (Sorry if I sound biased here, but I find both arguements petty).

...I'll skip the whole hypothetical situation here and state what I'm talking about:

A public school. The extreme majority is Mormon. Of those who aren't/claim they aren't, they seemingly go under the same belief system (They simply use different language and don't go to church.) Discluding myself, and a possible other silent individuals, of course. Daily, there are religious references. Blaming Darwin for WWI&II (I don't know how they got this) Basically stating that Jews killed Christ, and that Christ, was a historical fact. Constantly refering to the bible when it comes to novels (Supposedly claiming that the Bible is literature and can't be considered religious when they refer to it as a novel with Religious references. Again, I can't explain their logic.) Teachers referring to religious political opinions, ect.

I suppose I'm asking either:

A) What's your opinion on the separation of church and state? (Where is the religous line drawn at public schools?)

B) If a situation is where an extreme percentage of said public school believes the same -basically the above situation- Is it worth it to report? Would reporting make a difference? Even though the teachers constantly say that they're avoiding the violation, they really aren't... So what would a student, or, for the sake of discussion, what would you do in a situation like this?

 

[Ysu]

School is a state institution, therefore it must follow the rules of seperation just as any other federal institution.

There are however, different interpreters to that law. Some believe that seperation of Church and State mean't not having a National Church, like that of the Anglican Church of England. Colonists did after all, come to America to escape religous persecution.

Also, in the Supreme court, every religion is represented and God is in our friggin anthem . . .

I say report it and use the Federal institution excuse. If that doesn't work, well, your back to interpretation of the Constitution.

 

[var1ables]

Well i'd write a letter to a senator, or something. Truthfully, I don't know what to tell you. BUT in my opinion, your schools f*cked up and you should openly say that, and in as many instances as possible.

Constantly refering to the bible when it comes to novels

Well at least they know the truth, the bible was a NOVEL, or more accurately a book of short stories.

Blaming Darwin for WWI&II

WTF? I get blaming him for hitler's idea of a master race, but WWI? Ask "what does darwin have to do with WWI" next time that comes up. I'd also state that the majority of the people fighting were christian.(stupid ottomans screwing things up)

Basically stating that Jews killed Christ, and that Christ, was a historical fact.

Tell them that christ was a jew, and that christ was killed by the romans(who later became christian, so effectively they killed their own lord). Christ, although many of his stories aren't true, did exist.At least someone who was christ-like.

 

[CK the Fat]

L4t1n is right, when the founders made wrote the constitution they simply didn't want to create an intergrated religion-government nation, as nations like Britain, France, the HRE, Italy, etc, had been. Also, America was still largely the religious "rejects" of Europe, and they didn't want any religious wars to start. Though many America's founding fathers were in fact athiest, I don't think they would have supported the complete removal of religion in all public aspects.

A) What's your opinion on the separation of church and state? (Where is the religous line drawn at public schools?)

If there are religious aspects taught in school, they either have to be voluntary chosen by participants, or taught academically as opposed to by faith. My school has classes like Bible as Literature if you sign up for it, Christian Atheletes Club (which is not exclusive to either Christians, nor atheletes), and Prayer By the Flagpole.

B) If a situation is where an extreme percentage of said public school believes the same -basically the above situation- Is it worth it to report?

If religion is part of your culture, there's not much you can do about it. Everywhere you go you'll be plagued by it, and if you try and eliminate that culture you'll quickly find yourself a lot of enemies. Report it if one desires, but I doubt it will have much effect.

 

[Ysu]

Well actually, the founding fathers just didn't want to be like England. The other European nations you mentioned didn't really have a national church like England did. The Holy Roman Empire for example, started as a Catholic Empire. Ironically, HRE was also the birthplace of Protestantism, by a friar named Luther.

Also, none of the founding fathers were Atheist. They were mostly Deist, which mean't they didn't believe that God interfered with the physical world (like miracles).

 

[CK the Fat]

Most European countries didn't have a national church in the way Great Britain did, because they were already completely Catholic The church was there whether you wanted it or not, whether you payed tax to it or rented its land, etc.

Also, none of the founding fathers were Atheist. They were mostly Deist, which mean't they didn't believe that God interfered with the physical world (like miracles).

Eh, I've heard mixed sources. The founding fathers probably weren't too keen on saying "I'm a nonbeliever!" so it's dificult to tell.

 

[var1ables]

Most European countries didn't have a national church

Except most of Europe were blatantly catholic, and if you were catholic.... You were killed.

EDIT:England was blatantly protestant, and if you were protestants you were killed.

 

[CK the Fat]

Except most of Britain were blatantly catholic, and if you were catholic.... You were killed

By late 1700s it was the Anglican, not the Catholic, church that dominated England.

 

[Path-Finder]

I think the entire purpose of separating church and state was to make sure that no specific religion had more power than another. It was to balance all of the different sects of Christianity (and later the other religions that would enter America) The purpose of America's creation was in fact so religious freedom could be practiced without persecution and if one group rose above the others this sort of thing would probably happen.

though I suppose that only sums up what was previously said, no?

 

[Ysu]

Well, I think of it this way, when talking about Europe in that age.

North = Protestant
South = Catholic

Maybe its the proximity to Rome, dunno. England however, had the Church tie in with the state. The King was head of Church AND Government. Thats where it differs from the Catholic Kingdoms and Empires, since most monarchs weren't ready to hand over control to the Pope.

Either way, a debate like this always comes down to interpretation of the Constitution. Unless we can all agree on one interpretation, then this argument won't lead anywhere.

 

[var1ables]

By late 1700s it was the Anglican, not the Catholic, church that dominated England.

Oh sorry i meant the rest of europe. But it was the opposite in england. If you were catholic you were killed. I will remember not to be half asleep when i'm posting here again.

 

[Phoenix]

The South violated human rights (ie. slavery). That's usually associated with fundamentalism.

 

[CK the Fat]

As Muslims are with terrorists?

 

[Phoenix]

That's relatively new. However, Crusades, Inquisition and such come to mind with my example. What good has fundamentalism ever brought?

 

[var1ables]

... crazi... no that's a bad thing.... Nothing, nothing good comes from fundmentalism.

 

[CK the Fat]

What good has fundamentalism ever brought?

Research Puritanism and how it helped early American colonists survive the wilderness. There's something slightly more... effective when you do EXACTLY what is told to you.

 

[var1ables]

^^except more puritans had stolen natives land and stole their methods, hell the most well known one (Plymouth) was successful because the natives helps them.Most of the colonies failed where there weren't known native tribes.

 

[CK the Fat]

That doesn't mean the Puritans weren't kept in line by their religion, however.

 

[Phoenix]

That doesn't mean the Puritans weren't kept in line by their religion, however.

That's not what I asked, though. Fascism and communism can also do this. I asked what good has it brought.

 

[CK the Fat]

That's not what I asked, though. Fascism and communism can also do this. I asked what good has it brought.

And I stated it. Just because fascism and communism can also do it doesn't change the fact that so can fundamentalism.