Questions about Memories



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Seidhee

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Hi everybody,

First, I'd like to say that I've only recently finished KH 1.5, and I also played KH2 a few years ago, so please do not spoil me anything from BBS, Coded or 3D. Thanks.


Okay, I think I REALLY hate all the stuff (in CoM and Days) about "memories linked together, like they're in a chain" and Naminé's powers, that is " to take apart the links and rearrange them". Really.
I mean, I know they introduced all this in order to give a kind of explanation of how memories work in the KH's universe (instead of just saying "this is magic"), but I have the feeling that it just brings contradictions, plotholes or very confusing things.

I've done a little thinking, so here are the things that I do not quite manage to explain, and which seem to contradict each other. So if you have a clear explanation, I'd like to know it.


1) People that are forgotten by Sora in CoM also forgot Sora, in return. There is a quite simple explanation, which says that Sora's chain of memories is linked with those of the people he knows, and so what Naminé did while breaking his memories was actually taking apart the links between Sora's chain and the other characters' chains. And so they forgot Sora, as well as he did forget them.
Fine. I like this explanation, it makes sense.

But then here are the contradictions / confusing parts :

At the end of CoM, Naminé says that Sora'll have to forget everything about Castle Oblivion to get his old memories back (well, I could argue that if forgetting false memories of Naminé on the islands is completely consistent to get Kairi back, there is no such reason to forget the REAL memories of the things that happened at Castle Oblivion. Can't she just connect the memories of CO at the end of the chain ? That Sora remembers Naminé from CO but not from the islands ? Of course, one could also argue that the memories of CO were too much tangled with the false ones, but it just seems like an excuse for not Sora remembering anything at the start of KH2... whatever).

That way, Naminé takes apart the links of the chains of memories about all the events in CO, and Sora forgets about the Organization's members (Axel, for instance).
Then, according to what I say previously, how is it possible that Axel remembers Sora ?

Naminé breaks the chains of memories between Sora and Kairi in Sora's heart => Sora AND Kairi forget
(you can replace Kairi by any other relevant character)

Naminé breaks the chains of memories between Sora and Axel in Sora's heart => Sora forgets but Axel remembers

Why ? What is the difference, other than the obvious reason "Axel and Sora are not friends" which I'm not satisfied with ?


Still on the same subject, in 358/2 Days, when Naminé and Riku are talking about Xion :
"If I just jump in and rearrange her [Xion's] memories, Sora might wake up to find out nobody remembers him."

Again, what's she saying here ? According to the theory of chains of memories between people, how is it even possible that Sora remembers his friends, but not the other way around ?
How meddling with Xion's memories could allow Sora to remember, but not his friends ?


I shall sum up all these points like this : What is the explanation (related with all the "chains of memories" stuff) that makes some people forget everything about Sora while others keep their memories with him intact (Axel who remembers CO with Sora) ?


2) When Xion gives Sora's memories back to him and disappear, everyone forgets her. The only "explanation" we get is a sentence from Naminé, again : "In exchange for not having your own memory, you're connected through other's memories. So, when you disappear,.....".

This is quite unclear. This just does not make sense, Everyone is connected through other's memories (see my first point), it isn't just her.
What I understand from the game, however, is that Xion's entire identity and personality were due to Sora's memories of Kairi. She does not have a mind or a personality of her own. She is the personification of Sora's memories. So when she disappears, and gives Sora his memories back, she also takes the memories with Axel and Roxas. It is like the memories with Axel and Roxas becomes Sora's memories (see the end of the game : "our memories will be, forever, inside Sora").

But then, here is my problem : why, in KH2, when Roxas merges into Sora, Axel still remembers his friend ? Isn't it exactly the the same situation than with Xion ? One could tell : "Yes, but here the links between the chains of memories of Axel and Roxas are still present in Sora's heart, they do not fall apart. So Axel remembers Roxas."
But why couldn't it be the same with Xion ? Her memories still being connected with Roxas and Axel, even inside Sora ?



Here it is, sorry for the long messages. It is just all of I can think today . I would gladly discuss all these matters with you.

I'm not an native English speaker, so sorry for the mistakes that you'll see.
 
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Blackdrazon

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At the end of CoM, Naminé says that Sora'll have to forget everything about Castle Oblivion to get his old memories back (well, I could argue that if forgetting false memories of Naminé on the islands is completely consistent to get Kairi back, there is no such reason to forget the REAL memories of the things that happened at Castle Oblivion. Can't she just connect the memories of CO at the end of the chain ? That Sora remembers Naminé from CO but not from the islands ? Of course, one could also argue that the memories of CO were too much tangled with the false ones, but it just seems like an excuse for not Sora remembering anything at the start of KH2... whatever).
There really isn't a reason for this. I criticized as much in my retrospective a little while back. My best guess is that Namine could only shift memories in big "chunks," so every time she had to fix something, it made the memory unusable, until all of Castle Oblivion was messed up.

Then, according to what I say previously, how is it possible that Axel remembers Sora ?

[...]

Why ? What is the difference, other than the obvious reason "Axel and Sora are not friends" which I'm not satisfied with ?
KH2 later retcons Namine's powers such that she can only impact people allied with Sora, basically to fix problems like this. This means that her powers can't influence Axel no matter what she does. How do her powers work (in regards to the chain of memories) if she can't influence certain people? Who knows! It wasn't a very good retcon.


Still on the same subject, in 358/2 Days, when Naminé and Riku are talking about Xion :
"If I just jump in and rearrange her [Xion's] memories, Sora might wake up to find out nobody remembers him."

Again, what's she saying here ? According to the theory of chains of memories between people, how is it even possible that Sora remembers his friends, but not the other way around ?
How meddling with Xion's memories could allow Sora to remember, but not his friends ?
I think in this case Namine is simply saying: "If I do a quick and dirty job with Xion, things will be a mess." She's just giving a random example off the top of her head of how bad things might happen, I don't think it's meant to be an example of how memory works in this instance.


But then, here is my problem : why, in KH2, when Roxas merges into Sora, Axel still remembers his friend ? Isn't it exactly the the same situation than with Xion ? One could tell : "Yes, but here the links between the chains of memories of Axel and Roxas are still present in Sora's heart, they do not fall apart. So Axel remembers Roxas."
But why couldn't it be the same with Xion ? Her memories still being connected with Roxas and Axel, even inside Sora ?
The weird situation around Xion seems to be unique to her, either as a Replica or just her whole complicated existence. Remember, Xemnas and Saix were trying to make Xion's memories a problem for Namine, so it makes sense that Xion and Roxas would end up being treated differently, for who knows how many reasons.

Days makes a big deal about Nobodies being little more than the sum of their memories, since they have nothing else on which to form their identities. Xion, it seems, had literally nothing else but memories. You can think of Xion as being a bundle or knot of memories that were untangled along with her death, essentially wiping everything that was "Xion" out of existence, while Roxas as being closer to an everyday person.

It may also matter that Roxas was absorbed, but wasn't killed. Who can say? We only have so much evidence to work with.
 
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Seidhee

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Thanks for the answer !

KH2 later retcons Namine's powers such that she can only impact people allied with Sora, basically to fix problems like this. This means that her powers can't influence Axel no matter what she does. How do her powers work (in regards to the chain of memories) if she can't influence certain people? Who knows! It wasn't a very good retcon.
What is said exactly in 358/2 Days is that Naminé has powers over the memories of "Sora and those connected to him". The word used is "connected". Don't Axel and Sora have a connection between their memories after the events at CO ? But okay, whe should maybe leave it at that.

I think in this case Namine is simply saying: "If I do a quick and dirty job with Xion, things will be a mess." She's just giving a random example off the top of her head of how bad things might happen, I don't think it's meant to be an example of how memory works in this instance.
That is what I thought in the first place, but then the choice of the words is really bad... This quote from Naminé, within its context, looks like an explanation for not trying to untangle Xion's memories, so that the only real solution is for her to disappear.


You can think of Xion as being a bundle or knot of memories that were untangled along with her death, essentially wiping everything that was "Xion" out of existence, while Roxas as being closer to an everyday person.
That is kind of the explanation I came to, that is all the memories of Xion become in fact Sora's memories and then go inside him when Xion disappears (Xion being in fact the personification of Sora's memories).

But the discrepancy between Roxas' and Xion's situation still bothers me. If I recall, Xion was not supposed to die in the first place, she was supposed to merge into Sora like Roxas in KH2. And still, Naminé told her that everyone would forget her.

But okay, let's just admit the situation between Xion and Roxas when she disappears is different from the situation between Axel and Roxas when the latter disappears, even if it does not seem so in the first place.
 

Blackdrazon

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What is said exactly in 358/2 Days is that Naminé has powers over the memories of "Sora and those connected to him". The word used is "connected". Don't Axel and Sora have a connection between their memories after the events at CO ? But okay, whe should maybe leave it at that.
You're right, but the line from KH2 is "aligned with." It appears at the end of the 4th Day of the prologue. I think we'd have to get a translation of the Japanese to go further.


That is what I thought in the first place, but then the choice of the words is really bad... This quote from Naminé, within its context, looks like an explanation for not trying to untangle Xion's memories, so that the only real solution is for her to disappear.
The key words in Namine's statement isn't supposed to be "rearrange" but rather "jump in." In the previous line of dialogue, Namine was talking about how, ideally, "I would need to untangle [Sora and Xion's memories] from each other and that would take more time." This tells us that untangling Xion's memories from Sora's might have been possible, given infinite time, but DiZ wouldn't allow it. Riku then asks what else she could do, and then she starts to talk about working haphazardly: "jump[ing] in."


But the discrepancy between Roxas' and Xion's situation still bothers me. If I recall, Xion was not supposed to die in the first place, she was supposed to merge into Sora like Roxas in KH2. And still, Naminé told her that everyone would forget her.
Yes, that's a good point. I guess it has nothing to do with Xion dying, then.
 

dlppictures

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For Axel remembering Sora, there is the fact that the Organization knew about him before he entered CO, and so Axel would have had some memories to help him reconnect the events of CoM.
"One memory leads to remembering another and then another"
Plus he had Roxas who probably made him think of Sora at points where he "could feel Sora".

-Then why did Sora not remember CO when he met Org XIII?
Possibly because he was very cautious about being around them. Whenever SDG would encounter one of them they would just spit back at them with "You guys don't have any Hearts", or "You're Nobodies, you don't feel anything!"
Even in CoM when confronted by Vexen, Sora is so caught up in his mission that he refuses to accept the possibility that whatever Vexen says might actually be the truth.
The same could be the case in KHII, where Yen Sid told him about stuff that might be, and because he was the King's teacher of course what he says must be true. So with Sora being in that state of mind of not listening to the Organization, maybe that affected his possible remembering.
As we see later on after his fight with Saïx and he learns the truth about Roxas, he opens up more to the idea of Nobodies, and (sligth KH2FM spoiler) actually begins to remember Naminé, showing that the chains of his memories of CO are slowly being pieced together with his original memories in a more fluid fashion.
 

Seidhee

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For Axel remembering Sora, there is the fact that the Organization knew about him before he entered CO, and so Axel would have had some memories to help him reconnect the events of CoM.
That is true. But Axel does not seem having any gap in his memories, but maybe it is just not shown.

And I still question the point of a "chain of memories" between people then : how can Axel reconnect his links with Sora if the latter does not do the same ? How can the chain only go one way ?

Still a little confusing...


The key words in Namine's statement isn't supposed to be "rearrange" but rather "jump in."
What really bothers me is the second part of the quote from Naminé. If she said "If I do a dirty job, Sora might forget some important memories", I would understand.
But what she really says is something like "If I do a dirty job, Sora might remember his friends, but not the other way around"; and this is where this is confusing.



Anyway, I've come to think of a way that the links of the chains of memories disconnect from Sora or his friends but stay connected to some other people, which would explain some part of the things above, but this is pure speculation and quite hard to explain without a drawing.
 
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dlppictures

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That is true. But Axel does not seem having any gap in his memories, but maybe it is just not shown.
The key part here, I think. I'm not sure if anything is stated in the novelization of 358/2 days, but in game we just don't get into characters' heads outside of the reports.

Secret Report Day 72 said:
The longer you know someone, the less you need to speak in clear terms. Everything gets across with a wink and a nudge, a little reading between the lines... When it comes to what befell our late comrades at Castle Oblivion, ambiguity suits me just fine. But the Keyblade master and Roxas come out and say every little thing that comes to mind. Maybe that's human, or maybe they're just special.
I think the bolded part explains why he still remembers Sora clearly, because Roxas reminds him too much of him.

And I still question the point of a "chain of memories" between people then : how can Axel reconnect his links with Sora if the latter does not do the same ? How can the chain only go one way ?

Still a little confusing...
Indeed this is more difficult to explain, and unless one of our resident KH Lore masters drop in, I don't know if we can give you a very satisfying answer, as to how it can only go one way.

For another example:
Chain of Memories floor 13 (GBA) said:
Sora: Do either of you remember anything?
Donald: No, nothing. I think Goofy and I are supposed to be looking for someone important, too. But I can't remember... Um...you know, I'm just a teeny-weeny bit...scared.
Here we have Donald and Goofy who have forgotten about King Mickey. In the manga Donald even says "If we forgot who we're searching for... When I think about him, it warms my heart. But I'm having trouble remembering what kind of person he is. It's really tough when you lose something precious and there's a big hole in your heart."
However in Riku's story Mickey does not indicate whether or not he remembers Donald and Goofy.
Probably why in the remake the above scene was changed a little (different translation mayhaps?) to:
Re:CoM floor 13 said:
Sora: I only remember Naminé. C'mon, do you guys remember anything at all?
Donald: No. Sorry, Sora. It's important, but I just can't remember...I don't want to be, but I'm getting scared.
If it's not just a different translation scenario, this scene could be a retcon to try and explain why Mickey did not seem to forget his friends.
I just looked up the scene from 358/2 days where Mickey talks with Riku, and Mickey only mentions Sora by name, Riku is the one to name Donald and Goofy. Whilst it is easier to just talk about Sora in this case, as he is the Keyblade hero, and the more important piece in the battle, I guess this scene could be used as a defence towards Mickey forgetting Donald and Goofy, as otherwise they could just say "our friends" when talking about all three of them, which Riku in fact does later in the scene. I don't believe this to be the case myself, but just wanted to throw out the possibility which would go in favour of the chains going both ways.

What really bothers me is the second part of the quote from Naminé. If she said "If I do a dirty job, Sora might forget some important memories", I would understand.
But what she really says is something like "If I do a dirty job, Sora might remember his friends, but not the other way around"; and this is where this is confusing.
And then there is this. Sora might remember, but not the other way around. So Naminé even confesses that the chain can go only one way under the right (wrong) circumstances.

Anyway, I've come to think of a way that the links of the chains of memories disconnect from Sora or his friends but stay connected to some other people, which would explain some part of the things above, but this is pure speculation and quite hard to explain without a drawing.
Sounds intriguing, I would very much like to hear it if possible.
 

Seidhee

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I think the bolded part explains why he still remembers Sora clearly, because Roxas reminds him too much of him.
It's funny because that makes me think the opposite, that is Axel never forgot anything about Castle Oblivion :p
I can be wrong, but I do not believe Axel did actually have somme difficulties to remember Sora. I think he always remembered him clearly.

If it's not just a different translation scenario, this scene could be a retcon to try and explain why Mickey did not seem to forget his friends.
Indeed, I have heard about this difference between the two games on another thread. The thing is, this is not clearly stated anywhere whether Mickey did forget Donald and Goofy or not, but maybe I don't recall. So this is difficult to give an opinion, but what I believe here again is that:

If Donald and Goofy actually forgot Mickey, then Mickey forgot them too (at least partially, like Riku with Sora).
If they didn't forget him (retcon in Re:CoM), then I do not believe Mickey forgot them.

I just looked up the scene from 358/2 days where Mickey talks with Riku, and Mickey only mentions Sora by name, Riku is the one to name Donald and Goofy. Whilst it is easier to just talk about Sora in this case, as he is the Keyblade hero, and the more important piece in the battle, I guess this scene could be used as a defence towards Mickey forgetting Donald and Goofy, as otherwise they could just say "our friends" when talking about all three of them, which Riku in fact does later in the scene. I don't believe this to be the case myself, but just wanted to throw out the possibility which would go in favour of the chains going both ways.
I do not think there is any hidden meaning in this cutscene too, but here again I can be wrong.

And then there is this. Sora might remember, but not the other way around. So Naminé even confesses that the chain can go only one way under the right (wrong) circumstances.
I agree, it seems that is what she's saying. The thing is that she says that without any explanation behind, and I really do NOT see how dealing with Xion could affect Sora's friends but not him. I can't find any explanation related with all the "chains of memories" stuff.

Sounds intriguing, I would very much like to hear it if possible.
I'll try making a drawing.
 
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