My Unpopular Opinions About KH1

[ReverofEnola]

[video=youtube;8TenCRTcG1U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TenCRTcG1U[/video]

 

[DarkosOverlord]

I'm with you on literally everything.
One note, about the "better magic system" part I think KH II's magic is fine, what needs to come back is Donald and Goofy's usefulness.

Further proving the point about how good exploration is in this game, I never knew about the treasure chest above the emblem door in Hollow Bastion.
And I play this game religiously since 2002.

 

[ReverofEnola]

I'm with you on literally everything.
One note, about the "better magic system" part I think KH II's magic is fine, what needs to come back is Donald and Goofy's usefulness.

Further proving the point about how good exploration is in this game, I never knew about the treasure chest above the emblem door in Hollow Bastion.
And I play this game religiously since 2002.

Lol I knew fans would like that exploration bit in Hollow Bastion.

As for Donald and Goofy being useless we are in agreement there obviously. Like I get why KH2 Donald and Goofy were so underpowered in KH2 because of the Limits and Drive Forms. HOWEVER, Sora using Flare Force or WhirliGoof isn't the same as Donald casting Curaga or Goofy using MP Gift in KH1.

These abilities gave me reason to actually you know CARE for my party members like most RPG games and I mostly felt the KH1 magic system had an aid in that when compared to the KH2 version. Although, if Square WERE to come up with something that made them much more useful besides the magic system or the elements presented in KH2 then yeah again we are in agreement.

 

[kaseykockroach]

Minor aspect I know, but it always bothered me a little that the party members' HP/MP remains the same size throughout KH2. They're technically growing if you look at the HP meter at the pause menu, but there's a better sense of us as a group getting stronger throughout the journey with Donald and Goofy leveling up the same way you do.

There's also the fact that when I want to pick up and play KH1, it's pretty accessible. Not much waiting at all for the story to get to the point and the journey to begin, even if you choose not to skip any cutscenes.

 

[VoidGear.]

I never saw this thread. Now I'm crying because you reminded me of the Hollow Bastion-Traverse Town gumiship mission that had me short of smashing the controller intothe wall. I know most people hated Atlantica 3 more, but for me, that BULLCRAP mission was the absolute damn worst and I hate it.

 

[Elysium]

Minor aspect I know, but it always bothered me a little that the party members' HP/MP remains the same size throughout KH2. They're technically growing if you look at the HP meter at the pause menu, but there's a better sense of us as a group getting stronger throughout the journey with Donald and Goofy leveling up the same way you do.

That disappointed me, too. They still do get stronger like Sora, but it doesn't show visually. I can only assume it was a change to make the screen cleaner.

 

[kaseykockroach]

This is all pretty startling, honestly. I always found the original game to be the more satisfying experience of the two, and always assumed I was in the minority on that.
It's not by a wide margin, as KH2 most certainly has its improvements (smoother control, better camera, consistently better animation, more entertaining Gummi Ship missions). But the original is just simpler and more fulfilling to explore.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

This is all pretty startling, honestly. I always found the original game to be the more satisfying experience of the two, and always assumed I was in the minority on that.
It's not by a wide margin, as KH2 most certainly has its improvements (smoother control, better camera, consistently better animation, more entertaining Gummi Ship missions). But the original is just simpler and more fulfilling to explore.

Oh, we're still in the minority. KH II has too many "mainstream" and accessible elements and was part of too many childhoods to lose first place in popularity.
They're both really good games, but for different things, and I just happen to LOVE what KH1 does best, while I understand many of KH II's good points but I just don't care as much.

 

[kaseykockroach]

It helps that KH1 is easy to just pick up and play. With KH2...you have to wait 3-4 hours for the game to actually begin. And even then, the trio's just meandering around until the halfway Showdown at Hollow Bastion bit. Even the more inane Disney worlds in the original earned their presence on some level (though I'm biased in that I oddly never had a problem with Atlantica's controls). I also always appreciated how proactive Ariel was in the first game compared to other incarnations of the character.

 

[VoidGear.]

Oh, we're still in the minority. KH II has too many "mainstream" and accessible elements and was part of too many childhoods to lose first place in popularity.
They're both really good games, but for different things, and I just happen to LOVE what KH1 does best, while I understand many of KH II's good points but I just don't care as much.

I highly doubt that it's the "mainstream" or "childhood" aspects that make KH2 overall more popular. It might be a factor for some, but I really don't think it's the main reason.
The problem is that while KH1 has the better story, world inclusion and characters to probably a lot of people (me included), KH2 simply plays a lot more smoothly - and to many, gameplay is the single most important thing about a, well, game.
KH1s age just shows, even though it aged quite well. Be it in clunky platforming and movement or not-so-well-designed fights and other gameplay aspects.

That's not to say that KH2 has the objectively best gameplay - even though I would say it is definitely the most thought-through overall - simply because "objectively best" is a kinda meh term overall.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

I highly doubt that it's the "mainstream" or "childhood" aspects that make KH2 overall more popular. It might be a factor for some, but I really don't think it's the main reason.

When it comes to general public, it was a main reason for many. I've lost count of how many times I've read/heard things like "I loved this part, you could skate around and it was sooo cool", " Sora was such a badass he could cut skyscrapers" and so on. Not that it's wrong to like such things, but most of them were there to be eye-catcher and didn't have any deeper reason to be there (the motivations for liking them at least).
Like, Reaction Commands are still widely loved. Because especially back in the day having cool poses and backflips was the good stuff, regardless of if it was functional or not. It definitely left an impression on many more people than most of what KH1 did.

About childhood, many people started with KH II, or saw KH II at a friend's house, and obviously what you play first has a huge chance of shaping your viewpoint, especially at a young age (I won't deny playing KH1 first at 8 helped in me loving it).
I agree that it's the gameplay that mainly made KH II the most popular one, but I don't think the vast majority of people cared about gameplay in a breakdown kind of way of if it's balanced or not, what are the eye frames and tech movements and so on: is it fun? Is it flashy? Does it have the protagonist doing cool stuff?
It was more of a matter that it was fun rather that it was smooth, for me.

I mean, let's just look at the recent wave of big and small youtubers that played the saga: far too many times I've seen people just eager to get through with the "bad game" that was KH1 to finally replay the absolute fun that was KH II and relieving their childhood memories.
And sometimes BbS too, and I've seen it being called "the only other good KH title". It might be just me, but I think we could very well replace "good" with "fun" or "accessible".

 

[kaseykockroach]

Confessedly never cared for the Drive forms...when I'm not going through the tedious exercize of leveling them up for the sake of a growth ability like high jump or glide, then I pretty much forget they exist. There's no strategy to them and you more or less get the same result whether or not you use them.
I prefer KH1 just getting the better jumps and glides through simple story progression.

 

[Caxinuld]

What's the point of being able to command Donald and Goofy with the triangle button? It's an unnecessary feature that isn't vital to the gameplay, even on Proud Mode. The only thing I've noticed it do is interfere with the synthesis Heartless in the treehouse on Deep Jungle by attacking the Heartless and ruining your chances of getting rare materials.

 

[Elysium]

I use triangle all the time in KH1. I like being able to direct the party to fight one Heartless while I attack the other. Or send them off to their deaths lowering the HP of a boss while I wait it out, lol. But the party members are altogether useless in KH2 compared to KH1.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

What's the point of being able to command Donald and Goofy with the triangle button? It's an unnecessary feature that isn't vital to the gameplay, even on Proud Mode. The only thing I've noticed it do is interfere with the synthesis Heartless in the treehouse on Deep Jungle by attacking the Heartless and ruining your chances of getting rare materials.

I use triangle all the time in KH1. I like being able to direct the party to fight one Heartless while I attack the other. Or send them off to their deaths lowering the HP of a boss while I wait it out, lol. But the party members are altogether useless in KH2 compared to KH1.

This.
Giving orders to my party members with Triangle was one of my favourite features from the first game and it only became an issue in the Final Mix version when they decided to overlap Triangle with other stuff like Sonic Blade (not their brightest move).
I can tell my allies to go fight a different target, going all out on a boss, regroup, focusing on me (for all those "Donald doesn't heal" guys, if you press Triangle without a target your allies will focus on Sora and be more responsive if he needs healing).
It wasn't vital, but it was strategic and was yet another feature that rewarded exploring your options and your knowledge of the game's mechanics.
And while the allies settings in KH II are more sophisticated, I think the fact you can't decide them mid-battle makes them nearly useless with the exception of the "don't attack at all" one. I've never used the other ones because I don't need to and I kept forgetting to do that when I'm not fighting.

 

[kaseykockroach]

I confess....I had NO idea about that. For some reason, I guess I've never hit the triangle button in KH1 before. Quite a contrast to KH2, eh?

 

[VoidGear.]

While I agree that Donald and Goofy should gain some abilities and usefulness, I have to say that I think none of the games really did it right.

KH1 had
- more MP for Donald and the ability to cast aero on Sora
- MP Gift for Goofy
- overall more defined character settings.

KH2 had
- Limits and drive forms
- settings like "Sora attack" that proved quite convenient
- Donald's magic has certain impacts on certain enemies (pirates, for example)
- Goofy can stunlock some enemies with some of his attacks, and (imo) more reliably so than in KH1

Now I'm not saying that limits and drive forms entirely make up for the lack of more magic points or, e.g., MP Gift, however they give the game a whole new experience (-> being able to use a limit for invincibility or to entirely skip a DM, where in KH1 you would have needed to probably heal at least two times in a row in order to survive the damage taken (LOOKING AT YOU, CHERNABOG)).

Both have their ups and downs to me, and I can't necessarily agree that Donald and Goofy were oh-so-useful in KH1. (Especially since they both usually play dead for me in either of the games.)

 

[Elysium]

I didn't say they could wipe out Heartless or bosses in KH1, but they could distract them or drive down their HP when directed. The latter was usually helpful with bosses like Pot Centipede or Giant Ursula that exhaust your items/magic. Then there are other bosses like Chernabog, where you get thrown afar and using Triangle makes them fly back at the boss rather than float around waiting for the player to move. I can't say Limits or Drive Forms made them useful in KH2. They just made Sora more powerful while the party members became more passive. At least with MP Gift, Goofy gives MP to Donald as well as Sora.

I can tell my allies to go fight a different target, going all out on a boss, regroup, focusing on me (for all those "Donald doesn't heal" guys, if you press Triangle without a target your allies will focus on Sora and be more responsive if he needs healing).
It wasn't vital, but it was strategic and was yet another feature that rewarded exploring your options and your knowledge of the game's mechanics.

That's another one. It would stop them from dying at the doorway of a room to some random Heartless when all I was doing was running through to the next room anyway. I'd always get them to follow me during the first Oogie fight, too, f.e, so they'd avoid the contraptions knocking them out. That kind of control over the party is completely lost in KH2.

 

[kaseykockroach]

I actually really like KH2's final boss otherwise, but it always irked me that D&G are left out after the first part. At least with KH1's Ansem madness, there's a more organic reason to having to fight alone for the middle portion. But with KH2, why couldn't Donald and Goofy just stick around? Makes it feel a little anti-climatic otherwise, given I've been working and leveling up these guys throughout a 30-hour game, only to be stuck with Sora's on-and-off boyfriend.
KH2's FM makes me feel much better about it though, given that Enigmatic Soldier is technically the 'true' final boss, and working on making your pals stronger is almost as worthwhile as strengthening yourself (I always work to gain Defense Boosts for myself, Magic Boosts for Donald, AP Boosts for Goofy, etc).

 

[DarkosOverlord]

In KH II they really wanted to push that Sora-Riku combo. Considering that's one of the most popular scenes, I'd say it was a moderate success.

In the end KH1 and KH II just used allies in different ways. In the first title they worked adequately enough even by themselves, at least against waves of lesser enemies; in KH II allies were more Limit-Drive fuel, and shone against many bosses.