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Xion



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ZiggyK

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Didn't read the spoiler bit, but without Xion a new plot device would be added, which would have been met with the same reaction. It shouldnt have been made into a game, coz it was gonna be just organisation quest after quest until the game ended without something new.
 

HeartSeams

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D a new plot device would be added.
Again, not really. Countless people have provided some concrete ideas to things the games could have focused on, which would have been just as, if not more illuminating toward the series, without having to create brand new plot devices to do it through.
 

loke13

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Didn't read the spoiler bit, but without Xion a new plot device would be added, which would have been met with the same reaction. It shouldnt have been made into a game, coz it was gonna be just organisation quest after quest until the game ended without something new.

From GRASS:

This becomes a problem because, over time, the plot takes precedence over the characters. The shift creates a transition where, while once the characters drove the plot, now the plot drives the characters. More and more we see dialogue being used up on explaining plot points rather than giving insight into the character who's speaking. Character-wise, the series runs the risk of becoming shallower and it's becoming exceedingly difficult to develop these characters. That's how they develop. Not when they speak about or do just anything, but when they speak and act in such a manner that you can better understand them.

Days missed the perfect opportunity to be more character-centric. We know all the characters and the general plot, so all that was left was the finer details. Instead Nomura chose to throw a new character into the mix to overshadow characters we already know and care about, and add more convolution to the plot (Now Sora's memories are all over the place, as if it wasn't bad enough!).

Some people argue that Days would have been boring without a new character but they're entirely missing the point.
It would have been boring without a new character if the ones we knew had already been fully developed, which is clearly not the case. Wouldn't it have been nice, for once, to have looked at a Kingdom Hearts game and not try to make sense of its plot, but simply just get a better appreciation of its characters?

Days was unnecessary filler one way or another but that doesn't mean it had to automatically be bad. If anything, it could have enriched our perspective on the other games.
 

ZiggyK

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From GRASS:

This becomes a problem because, over time, the plot takes precedence over the characters. The shift creates a transition where, while once the characters drove the plot, now the plot drives the characters. More and more we see dialogue being used up on explaining plot points rather than giving insight into the character who's speaking. Character-wise, the series runs the risk of becoming shallower and it's becoming exceedingly difficult to develop these characters. That's how they develop. Not when they speak about or do just anything, but when they speak and act in such a manner that you can better understand them.

Days missed the perfect opportunity to be more character-centric. We know all the characters and the general plot, so all that was left was the finer details. Instead Nomura chose to throw a new character into the mix to overshadow characters we already know and care about, and add more convolution to the plot (Now Sora's memories are all over the place, as if it wasn't bad enough!).

Some people argue that Days would have been boring without a new character but they're entirely missing the point.
It would have been boring without a new character if the ones we knew had already been fully developed, which is clearly not the case. Wouldn't it have been nice, for once, to have looked at a Kingdom Hearts game and not try to make sense of its plot, but simply just get a better appreciation of its characters?

Days was unnecessary filler one way or another but that doesn't mean it had to automatically be bad. If anything, it could have enriched our perspective on the other games.

So in other words, we would have seen craploads of Demyx and Luxord and Xaldin going on missions.. and that's it? Sounds boring to me. There had to be a plot device in there somewhere,and the way it was set up, that plot device would have been hated.
 

loke13

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So in other words, we would have seen craploads of Demyx and Luxord and Xaldin going on missions.. and that's it? Sounds boring to me. There had to be a plot device in there somewhere,and the way it was set up, that plot device would have been hated.
I think your kind of missing the point. We have that regardless Xion didn't make the gameplay any less repetitive.
 

HeartSeams

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So in other words, we would have seen craploads of Demyx and Luxord and Xaldin going on missions.. and that's it? Sounds boring to me. There had to be a plot device in there somewhere,and the way it was set up, that plot device would have been hated.
I find it hilarious you want Kairi to be given more development but at the idea of seven or so underdeveloped characters finally getting some development all you do is call it boring.
 

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I think Xion's pretty cool because she was the first female character we got to see wielding a Keyblade. Other than that, she was pretty so-so.

I actually wish that instead of RAX, the Days trio could have been Roxas, Axel, and Namine. I have no idea how that would've worked, but I think it would've been a lot better if Namine was the reason Roxas left (maybe because DiZ was using her, which made Roxas pissed...I don't know :p). That could've made the scenes between the two of them in KH2 a lot more meaningful and make whatever relationship they formed in that game not seem so sudden. It could've been a kind of sad reunion, since Roxas wouldn't remember who Namine was, and she'd be guiding him and helping him out and whatnot.
 

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I find it hilarious you want Kairi to be given more development but at the idea of seven or so underdeveloped characters finally getting some development all you do is call it boring.

Under developed? They were developed perfectly. There purpose was to die. Which they did. They were useless and pointless characters.
 

loke13

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And if they were it would have been forced and stupid. They didn't deserve a greater role, they played there roles perfectly.
No one is saying give them a greater role but it would have been nice to EXPAND on there current roles and made them more then just one-dimensional bad guys.
 

HeartSeams

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I think Xion's pretty cool because she was the first female character we got to see wielding a Keyblade.
lol, Kairi was first.

And if they were it would have been forced and stupid.
It would not have been forced if, in a game centered around the Organization, that the Organization Members actually got development.

They didn't deserve a greater role, they played there roles perfectly.
Getting character development doesn't necessarily mean you're given greater roles, it means you're fleshed out more. We see more to a character than just the surface. Very little of the org members got this. Development from them could have brought on better understandings of many things, especially about the nature of Nobodies.
 

ZiggyK

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No one is saying give them a greater role but it would have been nice to EXPAND on there current roles and made them more then just one-dimensional bad guys.

Nobodies are meant to be one-dimensional bad guys. There is no reason why their roles should be expanded upon.

It would not have been forced if, in a game centered around the Organization, that the Organization Members actually got development.

They did, Saix, Axel, Roxas, Xion, Xemnas. All the important ones.


Getting character development doesn't necessarily mean you're given greater roles, it means you're fleshed out more. We see more to a character than just the surface. Very little of the org members got this. Development from them could have brought on better understandings of many things, especially about the nature of Nobodies.

Thats all there is too these characters, the surface. They are nobodies, they don't have deep, meaningful stories. They are emotionless, meet one you've met them all.
 

HeartSeams

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Thats all there is too these characters, the surface. They are nobodies, they don't have deep, meaningful stories. They are emotionless, meet one you've met them all.
You can't go ahead and say that because they are Nobodies they shouldn't be developed, yet list a bunch of Nobodies who did get developed in the same post. It just shows how your point doesn't really have much merit, because Nomura has shown that, yes, there IS more to these Nobodies than just the surface. He just didn't choose to show that for all of them. And as I said before, all characters deserve to be developed, especially ones that had such an impact to the story as the Organization did.
 

Marly

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I actually find that most of the under developed Organization members to be more interesting than most of any other characters. Days could have been better, I believe, if they had dove into some of the lesser member's back stories, which would have held so many possibilities and potential. Not to mention, that the lesser member were characters we were already familiar with and would therefore more easily appreciate their roles.
 

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I actually find that most of the under developed Organization members to be more interesting than most of any other characters. Days could have been better, I believe, if they had dove into some of the lesser member's back stories, which would have held so many possibilities and potential. Not to mention, that the lesser member were characters we were already familiar with and would therefore more easily appreciate their roles.

You can't go ahead and say that because they are Nobodies they shouldn't be developed, yet list a bunch of Nobodies who did get developed in the same post. It just shows how your point doesn't really have much merit, because Nomura has shown that, yes, there IS more to these Nobodies than just the surface. He just didn't choose to show that for all of them. And as I said before, all characters deserve to be developed, especially ones that had such an impact to the story as the Organization did.

Pretty much perfectly said. There's really no excuse.

That, and others make such a big deal about the lack of development for the Organization as if that's the only reason to ever hate Xion for. They were just one of the victims in passing: not the whole package of why it sucked to others, including her character.

If Ziggy thinks a plot device was needed, while I disagree, I wouldn't have minded if we had Vanitas in there. He actually, seems, you know, interesting to watch with all the craziness. Which would have made me like him, not hate him (as long as he remained in the support role he was enrolled to be in: not take over the whole damn game while the actual main character sits on the clock tower seeing everything and doing nothing). I mean, hell, I like the Organization moogle better than Xion. He was a really cool, funny little dude with a lot of quirks ^-^: "My name is of no importance".
 
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Reika

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That, and others make such a big deal about the lack of development for the Organization as if that's the only reason to ever hate Xion for. They were just one of the victims in passing: not the whole package of why it sucked to others, including her character.

Agreed. I don't think most of us hate her soley because of the lack of Org development. It's moreso her being a one-dimensional character, her role as a failed plot device, and what her presence did to the plot and other character (Days!Riku vs KH2!Riku, KH1!Riku, and CoM!Riku, anyone?). There are so many reasons, and we don't hate her for one reason alone; we hate her for ALL of those reasons put TOGETHER.
 

Marly

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Agreed. I don't think most of us hate her soley because of the lack of Org development. It's moreso her being a one-dimensional character, her role as a failed plot device, and what her presence did to the plot and other character (Days!Riku vs KH2!Riku, KH1!Riku, and CoM!Riku, anyone?). There are so many reasons, and we don't hate her for one reason alone; we hate her for ALL of those reasons put TOGETHER.

I don't think Xion was necessarily 'one dimensional'. But Nomura basically threw us a protagonist that we essentially had a little over -- what? 20 hours? -- to get to know. Her role itself gives her more than one dimension, we simply aren't given enough time to appreciate or truly grasp the importance of it.
 
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