Xemnas and the keyblade

[Gram]

Oh yes I'm back folks! And this time I'm posting up the 2.5 section! >8D

We all know this old tired debate. One stemmed from this teasing line by Nomura:

-- Roxas, the "Sora + Ventus" Nobody, was able to use a Keyblade. In contrast Xemnas, the "Terra + Master Xehanort" Nobody, wasn't able to use a Keyblade. Why is this?

Nomura: I'd rather that point remain a mystery. It's possible that he intentionally wasn't using one.

However in a recent post by Sephiroth0812 he pointed out something. Something I will now point out to you but before we all start jumping to conclusions and what not I want you to take a look at something:



This is a scene from Dream Drop Distance in which Xemnas not only reveals the truth about nobodies and hearts but also reveals just exactly what his true plans were during days and kh2.

Xemnas and Xehanort formed the Organization for a specific reason. Round up a bunch of empty husks, hook them up to kingdom hearts, then fill them all with the exact same heart and mind.
Translation--they were gonna turn all of the members into Xehanort.

Now doesn't this seem a rather odd course of action to you? Namely the part about using his artificial kingdom hearts to turn all the Organization members into Xehanorts?
After all as we seen in BBS and DDD Master Xehanorts method for making vessels of himself is to use his keyblade and the master exclusive power to extract hearts placing a part of himself into another person.

So why would Xemnas need to use something as massive and undertaking like to form as an artificial kingdom hearts to make vessels for Xehanort?
If he had a keyblade shouldn't he be able to just make them right there?

Xehanort does of course have a method to making vessels which involves getting that person to either sink or open up to the darkness but Xemnas had a decades worth of time to do that yet he spent it all conspiring to make the fake kh.

Doesn't make sense does it? Sure even with his master abilities and keyblade Master Xehanort still has a method for making vessels which involves getting that person to succumb to darkness in some way but Xemnas had a whole decade to do that, a decade he spent conspiring to form his false kh for the task.

Taking all that in it leaves only one logical explanation doesn't it? That Xemnas had no keyblade much in the same way that Ansem somehow lost MX's keyblade as pointed out by Riku.
Naturally Nomura could make up some crazy nomura reason to say otherwise later but given that kh3 is the last of Xehanort's presence I don't see him doing that.

 

[Draxem]

Unlike Roxas, Xemnas never co-existed with his original persona so he did not have the connection to be able to wield. Roxas 'borrowed' the power of Sora's Kingdom Key until he grew his own heart and unlocked the power of Ventus's within him, granting the ability to dual wield.

Now, as Xemnas states in DDD, with the right conditions they could grow new hearts of their own. He doesn't explicitly say that he himself grew one, and he definitely doesn't act like he did. My theory here being that nobodies, unless in co-existence with their original persona, can not wield a keyblade until they have grown their own heart.

I know Nomura has stated that Xemnas may have been choosing not to wield one, but does this not make a lot more sense as to why he would go through all the trouble to get Sora/Roxas/Xion to destroy the heartless? Xigbar was more than well aware that Apprenticenort could wield, within DDD we see Braig struck down, and we see the other members already down on the floor. We can't say for sure here, but doesn't this indicate they'd be aware of his ability to wield? Braig definitely knew already, do we think he remembers Apprenticenort stabbing him in the computer room of Hollow Bastion under the moniker of Ansem?

Just to quote myself to add to this, I don't believe Xemnas could wield either. I found some peoples suggestions that he 'hid' the fact for 10 years a little ridiculous in the first place.

I genuinely don't think Nomura is going to give us a straight answer about Xemnas ever.

 

[Gram]

^
Of course there is the possibility that Xemnas was like Riku. Riku also had his keyblade taken from him (the kingdom key) but still could use keyblades, he was just lacking one of his own.
Ansem, even though he is also stated to have lost MX's keyblade, could still use the Keyblade of Hearts in kh1 after stealing Riku's body.

Either way, looking at it from development views, I think Xemnas and Ansem not having MX's keyblade for whatever reasons is Nomura's way of working around how MX, Terranort and AX could wield while Ansem and Xemnas were never shown having one.

Basically a way of covering his tracks without actually retconning anything. (after all it's not a retcon if it's not an bluntly said/established fact prior)

 

[Veritas7340]

The way I see it is that if Xemnas could wield a keyblade then he shouldn't have needed to manipulate Sora, Roxas, and Xion to destroy Heartless considering how it would've been much easier and shorter to simply do it himself.

 

[flyingfishstick]

I interpreted the "hooking up people to kingdom hearts" line as another of Xehanort's shortcuts. It was a lot of trouble to gain control of Terra's body with his and Eraqus consciousness lingering about inside his head. Rather than go through that with twelve more people, he'll just use Kingdom Hearts to completly drown out who they once were so that they'd already be empty vessels by the time he's ready to extract and split his heart. He'd most likely acomplish this with his Keyblade;however, whether or not he would do this as Xemnas or Xehanort, I'm unsure.

 

[Gram]

^ Thats a bit iffy though since Ansem nor Xemnas showed signs of internal struggle. One has to remember that MXs hosts are eventually swallowed by him and rendered dormant.
And though we know the memories were divided the only one that actually showed Terra traits was Xemnas while Ansem showed none.
And even then Eraqus is never mentioned as influencing by Nomura.

Basically it seems that by the time of Ansem and Xemnas that Terra & Eraqus had been rendered dormant/swallowed by Xehanort.

 

[flyingfishstick]

Right. I'm just saying it was a risky move on Xehanort's part to posses Terra. After he took over his body he was in a very disoriented state and after his confrontation with Aqua, very nearly trapped himself within the Realm of Darkness. I'm going to assume that not even Xehanort could escape from that place seeing as half of his second attempt to forge the X-Blade involved his heartless revealing the DtD. If Xemnas/Xehanort could completely wipe the minds of his victims the process would be much smoother and much safer. In this case, he wouldn't have to deal with residual emotions and willpower from the body's previous owner. Of course, you have people like Braig and possibly Isa, who willingly volunteered to host a Xehanort heart. These two likely underwent the same process that Terra went through.

 

[Gram]

Ah but if he had a keyblade to do MXs riskier method with he'd have had a whole decade to render the host dormant which he seemed able to do with both Terra and Eraqus in a year or so's time when they all inhabited the Apprentice.

No matter how you look at it Xemnas' plans make no sense if he had a keyblade while they make perfect sense if you look at the angle that he doesnt.

 

[flyingfishstick]

You definitely have a point. I'm not sure if Xemnas would have been Xemnas by the time he was ready to split his heart. Assuming none of the heros got involved over the course of KHI-KHII, I would think that Xehanort would have had some way of reuniting his two halves before forging the X-Blade. By that point in time, he should have regained the ability to wield.

 

[unbound_word]

Here's what I think: inside his body now corrupted by Master Xehanort, Terra made it possible for Xemnas to not get a Keyblade upon being created.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

It gets a little odd if we put Isa/Saix into this. He's been norted for well over a year and probably longer. I'd say something like "Well maybe Xemnas did have a Keyblade and planted a piece of Xehanort in Saix." But then of course if Xemnas did have a Keyblade, he would have done that with everyone else. Maybe if he had Ansem possess Saix for a while, it can give the same effect. I dunno.

So my guess on how the stupid plan was supposed to work was after Xemnas had enough worthy vessels. he would kill his Heartless, send the heart to the artificial Kingdom Hearts. The heart would, from there, corrupt some hearts with a dash of Xehanort. Then Xemnas would insert said hearts into the chosen idiots and BAM! More Xehanorts.

 

[Gram]

^ Given Saix has had Xehanort/yellow eyes in every scene of him in days and kh2 I'd say it's a safe bet that he's been a Xehanort for a long time.
Though the Ansem idea is also interesting. He's also said to lack MX's keyblade but being a heartless, a heart without a body, he's still capable of possession as he did to Riku.

I often wonder if Xemnas and Ansem intended to reunite. When detailing the plan it came off as that Xemnas was also gonna serve as a vessel so perhaps Ansem taking Riku's body after a decade of not having one may have been his way of becoming physical again and take the X-blade after Xemnas and the Org became vessels.

...Though saying it like that makes Xemnas sound like the banana to Ansem....but then again carrying Xehanort's actual heart may have made Ansem de facto leader of the two....

 

[Seighart]

Oh yes I'm back folks! And this time I'm posting up the 2.5 section! >8D

We all know this old tired debate. One stemmed from this teasing line by Nomura:



However in a recent post by Sephiroth0812 he pointed out something. Something I will now point out to you but before we all start jumping to conclusions and what not I want you to take a look at something:



This is a scene from Dream Drop Distance in which Xemnas not only reveals the truth about nobodies and hearts but also reveals just exactly what his true plans were during days and kh2.



Now doesn't this seem a rather odd course of action to you? Namely the part about using his artificial kingdom hearts to turn all the Organization members into Xehanorts?
After all as we seen in BBS and DDD Master Xehanorts method for making vessels of himself is to use his keyblade and the master exclusive power to extract hearts placing a part of himself into another person.

So why would Xemnas need to use something as massive and undertaking like to form as an artificial kingdom hearts to make vessels for Xehanort?
If he had a keyblade shouldn't he be able to just make them right there?

Xehanort does of course have a method to making vessels which involves getting that person to either sink or open up to the darkness but Xemnas had a decades worth of time to do that yet he spent it all conspiring to make the fake kh.

Doesn't make sense does it? Sure even with his master abilities and keyblade Master Xehanort still has a method for making vessels which involves getting that person to succumb to darkness in some way but Xemnas had a whole decade to do that, a decade he spent conspiring to form his false kh for the task.

Taking all that in it leaves only one logical explanation doesn't it? That Xemnas had no keyblade much in the same way that Ansem somehow lost MX's keyblade as pointed out by Riku.
Naturally Nomura could make up some crazy nomura reason to say otherwise later but given that kh3 is the last of Xehanort's presence I don't see him doing that.

Well if Xemnas were to use his own keyblade, where would he get the original heart of Xehanort from? Had he used his own heart, there would be Xemnas clones and not Xehanort. I think he didn't use it just because there was no need. That. and it would give away that anyone can grow a heart.

 

[Gram]

Well if Xemnas were to use his own keyblade, where would he get the original heart of Xehanort from? Had he used his own heart, there would be Xemnas clones and not Xehanort. I think he didn't use it just because there was no need. That. and it would give away that anyone can grow a heart.

Xemnas was gonna use the false KH to hook them all up to one heart & mind (his) so the xemnas clone angle doesnt seem to matter. Xemnas is mostly Xehanort himself to begin with so it shouldnt matter.
Plus Xemnas lost any reason to keep the lie going by the end of kh2 so I dont think that holds water either especially if you factor in the DDD battle were he bluntly told his plan but still didnt use a keyblade at that point when he had no reason not too.

 

[Seighart]

Xemnas was gonna use the false KH to hook them all up to one heart & mind (his) so the xemnas clone angle doesnt seem to matter. Xemnas is mostly Xehanort himself to begin with so it shouldnt matter.
Plus Xemnas lost any reason to keep the lie going by the end of kh2 so I dont think that holds water either especially if you factor in the DDD battle were he bluntly told his plan but still didnt use a keyblade at that point when he had no reason not too.

Yes while he mostly is Xehanort, he is isn't Xehanort. If he were to hook himself up to all the others, how could he possibly pass on the keyblade to them if he couldn't wield himself? Xehanort once promised Braig that he'd have his own keyblade but never said how long he'd have to wait. Had Xemnas' planned worked, they probably still would've had to wait until DDD for MX to return, or until his predicted reunion. Maybe he didn't used it during DDD is because Xigbar would've questioned why he hasn't gotten his yet after 10+ years while Xemnas has his after only being "alive" for less than what 4 years? Reason for keeping the lie is so that they could use that information to further drive Sora into darkness, one of Xehanorts many backups. As I stated in my analysis topic, (http://forums.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-iii/178564-my-analysis-nortification.html) there was no one else that could've seeded Saix since Xehanort had been out of the picture. Xemnas needed a KB in order to seed other hearts.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

What if Xemnas and Ansem couldn't wield Master Xehanort's Keyblade because it turned into the Guardian? Of course, that leaves the question of Terra's Keyblade, but what if Terra's memories are still locked after Xehanort stabbed himself as Terranort?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Terra's Keyblade is in possession of the Lingering Will and thus out of the equation in any case anyways.

 

[Gram]

Yes while he mostly is Xehanort, he is isn't Xehanort.

Come again?

Q: Who are the thirteen researchers of darkness?
A: Thirteen seekers of darkness that share a consciousness and heart with Master Xehanort, serving as raw material for the X-Blade. In this game, they failed in their attempts to make Sora the 13th of their ranks, but who's to become the 13th in his stead? And who are the six whose identities have not been revealed?

— What happens to the hearts of those who have had Master Xehanort’s heart planted within them?

Nomura: They’ll gradually be swallowed by it. As for Master Xehanort, he plans to control them completely. The planted parts of the heart are captured rather than disappear.

He's got bits of others in him and his mindset is separate from his heartless Ansem but Xemnas is very much Xehanort like the rest.
Xehanort is Xehanort no matter how many little quirks each version has, they're all the same man inside because their all dominated by a part of the same heart.

Really this is just splitting hairs or arguing semantics. In the end they're all still doing what Xehanort wants and following Xehanort's plans so whether Xemnas is Xehanort completely or partly (or even whether all the Xehanorts are him completely or only partly for that matter) is irrelevant because in the end Xehanort was the one still in charge and directed their actions through the part of his heart/mind that resisted in them.

And one of Xehanort's intentions was to spread that part of himself that was in Xemnas to the other 12 which he wouldn't have had to wait to do if Xemnas was able to access MX's keyblade.
Him having a keyblade and hiding it just makes no sense.

If he were to hook himself up to all the others, how could he possibly pass on the keyblade to them if he couldn't wield himself? Xehanort once promised Braig that he'd have his own keyblade but never said how long he'd have to wait.

Assuming he has a keyblade.

Maybe he didn't used it during DDD is because Xigbar would've questioned why he hasn't gotten his yet after 10+ years while Xemnas has his after only being "alive" for less than what 4 years?

What would Xemnas have to fear of Xigbar? Xigbar himself admits he's already half Xehanort meaning he was just as much a puppet as Xemnas was at that point.

Plus Nomura considers Xemnas the strongest of the old ORG with only three that compare to him:

–Who are the strongest ranking Organization XIII?

Nomura: Xemnas is the strongest, and Roxas is considerably strong you include his potential. Xaldin and Lexaeus are higher after that. However, when their strength is configured by preference, it’s different than how it appears in the story.

Xigbar being a threat or even an afterthought in Xemnas' mind is slim at best. Both were puppets to the same heart & mind.

Reason for keeping the lie is so that they could use that information to further drive Sora into darkness, one of Xehanorts many backups.

The battle in DDD takes place after Xemnas reveals everything was a lie so he had no reason to hide having a keyblade at that point.

As I stated in my analysis topic there was no one else that could've seeded Saix since Xehanort had been out of the picture.

That's not true.
We learned in the opening of DDD the Apprentice had gained access to Xehanort's keyblade at some point meaning his own nortification must've reached completion some time during the experiments.

The Apprentice had the time, window and means to seed Isa/Siax.
Axel himself says when he and the others revive as people that "we're people again...but only the ones that joined the organization here" then goes onto wonder where Isa and Braig are.

This tells us that Lea and Isa was also among the original 6 in that lab when they were all transformed and with the Apprentice whipping around a keyblade that's plenty enough evidence to throw the blame on him.

There's just no way to make sense of Xemnas' plans or actions when you look at it like he had a keyblade while looking in reverse everything makes sense.

Terra's Keyblade is in possession of the Lingering Will and thus out of the equation in any case anyways.

As is Eraqus' since Aqua claimed it.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

Come again?

I believe he means that Xemnas is made from Xehanort so he tastes like Xehanort, but he's not Xehanort.

I never thought I'd ever use the old Splenda tagline. Yeah, I don't really have anything to add to the conversation at the moment, I just didn't want to miss the opportunity.

 

[Gram]

I never thought I'd ever use the old Splenda tagline.

And in turn I never thought I'd see it again lol.

Also wanted to point out that just cause things seem to point to Xemnas not having a keyblade doesn't mean he cause use one.
Riku also had lost his keyblade to Sora but still retained the power to use one if he managed to get a hold of it. That being said I think, given what we currently know, that Xemnas just didn't have a keyblade of his own to use. (not that he lacked the power to use one at all)

Ansem, his counterpart, is said to have also lost the keyblade by Riku yet he was still able to use the Heart Unlocker/Keyblade of Heart in KH1 after taking Riku's body and forging the keyblade from 6 of the 7 PoH.