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Xemnas and Roxas in the dark Margin BBS connection.



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Goldpanner

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Sorry for the misunderstanding. It's just a lot easier calling the body and soul a nobody seeing as that's what it basically is. Roxas is Sora's Body and Soul with Ven's conscious trapped within it. ... It is complicated to explain and the gist ... well it's so complicated that it doesn't have one ... I guess :(

Hmmmm. So you're saying you think 'Roxas' is Ven's conscious? As in, when we hear 'Roxas' talking and thinking it's actually Ven?

I don't think so. When it comes to Nobodies, they don't need a conscious on top of the body and soul. They somehow already have one.

Look at Axel, a natural Nobody. He is Lea's body and Lea's soul, with a consciousness called 'Axel'. Lea himself is pretty much dead; he is inside a mindless Heartless.

So, Sora's Nobody would already have a consciousness of his own, and that's Roxas. I explained it a minute ago in another thread:

Sora is a human and he has a heart, which means having Kairi's heart as an extra is just 'harbouring it' as you said.
Roxas is a Nobody and they don't need hearts to function, which means him having Ven's heart as an extra is just 'harbouring it' too.

That's why Roxas couldn't dual wield until the end of Days; he wasn't even really connected to that heart until he went through serious trauma.
 

Relix

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Hmmmm. So you're saying you think 'Roxas' is Ven's conscious? As in, when we hear 'Roxas' talking and thinking it's actually Ven?

I don't think so. When it comes to Nobodies, they don't need a conscious on top of the body and soul. They somehow already have one.

Look at Axel, a natural Nobody. He is Lea's body and Lea's soul, with a consciousness called 'Axel'. Lea himself is pretty much dead; he is inside a mindless Heartless.

So, Sora's Nobody would already have a consciousness of his own, and that's Roxas. I explained it a minute ago in another thread:

Not really. A nobody has the same consciousness as their somebody. Roxas is an exception however. He didn't have a chance to gain Sora's consiousness so he was really a shell in the beginning of his nobody life. Look at Braig and Xigbar. Same consciousness. Axel is still Lea just with a different name given to him by the Organization. the nobody is technically the same consciousness as the somebody but not the somebody itself. Al the organization think the way they used to as humans, remember Saix, "we know very well how to injure a heart." They still have their old minds, they're souls. just not their hearts and therefore don't have they're old emotions. Roxas and Namine are pretty much the ones who had to develop their own consciousnesses since they're somebodies still exsist and therefore attain there own conscious.
 

Zubine

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Roxas is Sora's nobody, that is rock solid fact. Here is the interesting part... When someone becomes a nobody, they dont change the way they look, at all. But then you look at Sora and Roxas then think "Wtf happened there?". Well Ven's heart which was inside Sora influenced the way Sora's nobody looked, thus changing it to look like his old body. Point is, Roxas is Sora's nobody, with the chance that the fractured part of Ven's heart might be inside Roxas, also with that heart I can bet my balls that somewhere down there Ven's memories are lurking in there as well. As it was shown in 358/2 Days when Xion looked like Ven because of Ven's heart.

-This crap goes way too deep sometimes lol -
 

Allister Rose

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we don't really know if the nobodies gain the same consciousness as the their somebody. though they are alter egoes.

for one they have no emotion, so all they have left is memories to act apon
 

Goldpanner

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Not really. A nobody has the same consciousness as their somebody. Roxas is an exception however. He didn't have a chance to gain Sora's consiousness so he was really a shell in the beginning of his nobody life.

Nah, I disagree. I think what Nobodies have is 'memories', which means they can copy their Other's consciousnesses very well, but they are not the same.

First of all, when Ansem first mentions them this is how he says it:

But since we exist in this realm, our counterparts of another realm must not be existent.
Therefore I shall call them...
"The non-existent ones."

There is a very clear distinction between 'them' and 'us'. 'They' don't exist, 'we' do.

It's not that 'we' get reborn, they are whole new beings born in another realm.

The second reason I have is because the Nobodies of Org 13 weren't trying to get their original hearts back. They were trying to get new hearts from their fake KH. What would the reason for this even be? Why not just get their old hearts back? I think it's because bringing back their old hearts into the body and soul is the same as resurrecting the dead Other. And of course the Nobodies wouldn't want that; they want to be complete, but they want to be themselves.

The third reason is something Axel thinks to himself in the Days novels. Yeah, I know they're not canon, but that author wrote the scenario for Days and she obviously understands the way the KH universe works.

Anyway, we Nobodies were born when our Others became a Heartless. So, fundamentally, we Nobodies just can’t know every single thing about our Others.
There was only one person that Axel had known as an Other, and was still in touch with. It was even more unlikely, in fact impossible, for his Nobody and Other to meet at the same time.
Because, essentially, Nobodies and their Others—as in, the human who became a heartless—don’t exist at the same time.

Nobodies and Others don't know everything about each other. They are separate people.

Nobodies are born.

Look at Braig and Xigbar. Same consciousness.

Do you know that? How do you know Xigbar doesn't just act according to Braig's memories, which is all he has? Same with Axel. All Nobodies have is memories. They shape their identities according to those memories. But I am very sure they have their own consciousness.

Roxas and Namine are pretty much the ones who had to develop their own consciousnesses since they're somebodies still exsist and therefore attain there own conscious.

I don't think this is right. Roxas and Namine just didn't have memories to use to shape an identity, but they, like every other Nobody, has preexisting consciousness of their own.
 

Relix

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Nah, I disagree. I think what Nobodies have is 'memories', which means they can copy their Other's consciousnesses very well, but they are not the same.

First of all, when Ansem first mentions them this is how he says it:



There is a very clear distinction between 'them' and 'us'. 'They' don't exist, 'we' do.

It's not that 'we' get reborn, they are whole new beings born in another realm.

The second reason I have is because the Nobodies of Org 13 weren't trying to get their original hearts back. They were trying to get new hearts from their fake KH. What would the reason for this even be? Why not just get their old hearts back? I think it's because bringing back their old hearts into the body and soul is the same as resurrecting the dead Other. And of course the Nobodies wouldn't want that; they want to be complete, but they want to be themselves.

The third reason is something Axel thinks to himself in the Days novels. Yeah, I know they're not canon, but that author wrote the scenario for Days and she obviously understands the way the KH universe works.



Nobodies and Others don't know everything about each other. They are separate people.

Nobodies are born.



Do you know that? How do you know Xigbar doesn't just act according to Braig's memories, which is all he has? Same with Axel. All Nobodies have is memories. They shape their identities according to those memories. But I am very sure they have their own consciousness.



I don't think this is right. Roxas and Namine just didn't have memories to use to shape an identity, but they, like every other Nobody, has preexisting consciousness of their own.

I stand corrected. totally disregarded the memories aspect. Saix: no but we remember what it was like.

that sounds more right my bad.
 

Goldpanner

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I stand corrected. totally disregarded the memories aspect. Saix: no but we remember what it was like.

that sounds more right my bad.

:3 No worries. I only wish Nomura would say these things clearly in his damn games, so we don't have to piece it together from interviews and random scenes across a heap of games.
 

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Well not that I think I'll change anyone's mind, but Xemnas and Roxas are the only nobodies up-to-date that have and/or had hearts as nobodies.

A 'being' really only needs a soul to have a conscious. For example: After the fight with Aqua, Terra's consciousness found it's way to Eraqus' heart, giving him the strength to stab his heart and cut-off MX's control over it. After Aqua sacrificed herself and her armor to save Terranort, he was later found by Braig, who later tried to make him remember anything. Terranort was functioning without Xehanort or Terra controlling him. A nobody moves with a life of it's own due to the soul still remaining within the body, but even a lesser nobody has a conscious, after all that one Dusk used telephthy on Roxas.

Dusk: I have come for you my leige

A conscious however exists within the heart, honestly I think the conscious is the heart and the soul's connection with eachother.
 

HeartSeams

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Well not that I think I'll change anyone's mind, but Xemnas and Roxas are the only nobodies up-to-date that have and/or had hearts as nobodies.

A 'being' really only needs a soul to have a conscious. For example: After the fight with Aqua, Terra's consciousness found it's way to Eraqus' heart, giving him the strength to stab his heart and cut-off MX's control over it. After Aqua sacrificed herself and her armor to save Terranort, he was later found by Braig, who later tried to make him remember anything. Terranort was functioning without Xehanort or Terra controlling him. A nobody moves with a life of it's own due to the soul still remaining within the body, but even a lesser nobody has a conscious, after all that one Dusk used telephthy on Roxas.



A conscious however exists within the heart, honestly I think the conscious is the heart and the soul's connection with eachother.
In KH, a soul is just a battery. So far, that's all it's been confirmed to do. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Relix

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Body is the vessel. soul is the power source. heart is the ID if I'm not mistaken. that is why a nobody is the nobody of their somebody but not exactly their somebody because they lack their somebody's heart.
 

Goldpanner

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I think they mean that glowy ball that Ven turns into at the end of BBS or something?

In any case, 'battery' is just a metaphor. A confirmed metaphor. So whether it changes colour or not doesn't mean anything :/
 

Evello

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A 'being' really only needs a soul to have a conscious. For example: After the fight with Aqua, Terra's consciousness found it's way to Eraqus' heart, giving him the strength to stab his heart and cut-off MX's control over it. After Aqua sacrificed herself and her armor to save Terranort, he was later found by Braig, who later tried to make him remember anything. Terranort was functioning without Xehanort or Terra controlling him. A nobody moves with a life of it's own due to the soul still remaining within the body, but even a lesser nobody has a conscious, after all that one Dusk used telephthy on Roxas.
Wait a second, when did that ever happen? Terra's consciousness never went anywhere. Terra simply wrestled control of his own heart away from MX for long enough to stab himself. Eraqus was not involved in the slightest. Terra still has his heart, body, and soul, but MX was controlling his heart up until after the fight with Aqua.

And while Terra wipes Terranort's memories, MX and Terra still have an influence on Terranort's actions, as the secret ending shows. MX and Terra are still fighting to control Terra's heart, even when Terranort has lost both of the two's memories. So Terranort is not completely autonomous.

And the soul is just a battery. Nothing more. Nomura stated in an interview that the soul just serves to power the being.
 
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Actually, it looks the same as MX's and the Princesses' (when their hearts are released from the Heart Unlocker).

I'm guessing you're wondering why it looks different than the conventional heart we see at Sora's death screen, or when they're released from Heartless.
Not sure. I think it was just a design choice. Like, they ball of light was used in more intimate moments, to show that the heart isn't just a pink... heart-shaped... heart. Who knows?
 

Goldpanner

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Maybe the balls of light hearts are ones with consciousness? And the pink ones are like, blank ones that Heartless ate or something.
idk 8D
 
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