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Why people think TAV are weak



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Xehanort-X-blade

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ok i dont know if someone post this already but im tired of hearing many people say TAV so weak and sora can solo them all its bugging me i dont get it didnt nomura already confirmed TAV stronger and better wielders then sora and TAV strong because they were training for years now but people still call them weak huh why no one notice there stronger then sora dont include sora finale form or other forms it only work in battle anyway TAV mastered there keyblades they can make it turn to other things like canon or ship and TAV can use alot of magic all those moves you see in bbs thats the keyblade power ghost drive wing blade and other things but since TAV use it means they know how to use there keyblade power unlike sora blizzard fire thunder wind proof he cant use his keyblade better then TAV tho true he need training to but TAV stronger and in DDD dont forget yen sid said you to well get new powers for your test so in DDD they got help they still dont know how to completely wield it better then TAV and if someone say sora can solo all then i say aqua solo both sora and riku lol i prefer master aqua and btw if you think riku controld his darkness proof his better then terra you wrong because 2 reasons 1. terra darkness was in his heart when he was born with half darkness riku didnt born with darkness like terra he had dark power since he was young and it kept getting stronger every time he get angry 2.why terra couldnt control his darkness its obvious 1 because MX kept chasing him and planing to unlish his darkness 2 he send braig to make him angrier 3 MX killed eraqus in front of terra see all this to make terra rage the last one to make him rage was when MX said to vanitas kill aqua and fuse with ven then terra couldnt hold darkness anymore so he didnt have time to overcome darkness like riku and riku he had plantey of time to overcome his darkness see proof terra darkness was stronger
 

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

I think this actually has a lot to do with KH2 and how game mechanics are perceived. Sora is incredibly over powered in KH2 and is given an array of flashy moves the likes of which we'd never seen before or again. Add the Drive Forms and Sora comes across as an unstoppable force. In canon though, while Sora is fairly strong, he's not really meant to have that near godly power. Canonically, Sora isn't supposed to be as strong, skilled, or knowledgeable of the Keyblade as TAV because he lacks the years of training and guidance.

I actually sort of had a conversation like this with someone because they were confused as to why MX and the other villains were so dismissive of Sora and his accomplishments despite being "so strong". I see it brought up every now and then but the game mechanics are often confused for Sora's (and the other characters) actual strength and ability set. Very rarely do you actually see the really flashy and devastating moves during cutscenes.
 

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

lol, that's another misconception. Sora never even defeated LS, it quite when it figured out that Sora wasn't Xehanort.
 

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

lol LS stoped after know sora wasnt MX but he knew about ven heart was inside sora thats 2nd reason he stop
No it's the only reason he stopped. The LS attacked Sora cause it thought "XEHANORT!!!!!!!!!!" but realized what it sensed was Ventus and stopped.

As for the power scaling. I find anyone trying to rank the characters like this is DBZ silly really. The games are inconsistent at times, Sora's level is always reset for actual in-game and canon reasons, and much like the real world how a fight would end up depends on how it's done.

For instance the MX vs Terra fight many argue over. Yes Terra is decades younger and could outlast and likely destroy MX. However MX himself is much older, cunning and downright devious.
If it was a straight up, normal fight, Terra would likely defeat his much older adversary.
HOWEVER. Like we seen in BBS, if it's a situation MX has set up with his schemes and plans it's obvious he'll come out on top which is actually what happened in BBS:

Q8: Who is Apprentice Xehanort really?
A: Master Xehanort commandeering Terra’s body

Master Xehanort wishes to bring back the Keyblade War and see what happens afterward with his own eyes, but once he found a way to accomplish this he was already an old man with only a few years left to him. Wishing to become young again, he finds Terra, and defeats him with darkness so he can take his body. That is the Xehanort that Ansem the Wise picks up, and makes his number one apprentice.

[picture: Terranort and Aqua]

Master Xehanort has taken over Terra’s body, but Aqua tries to get Terra’s heart and self to return to it.

[picture: Ansem picking up Xehanort]

Afterwards he loses his memory and is picked up by Ansem the Wise.

[picture: Apprentice Xehanort]

Calling himself Xehanort, he becomes Ansem the Wise’s apprentice and goes into the study of darkness.

[pictures: Ansem Seeker of Darkness, Xemnas]

Xehanort’s Heartless calls himself Ansem Seeker of Darkness, and his Nobody calls himself Xemnas.
Link: BBS Ultimania - 20 Mysteries Solved! - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

Then there's the case of Roxas and Sora. They both fought rather evenly for a bit but Roxas more aggressive style brought Sora to his knees but the victor in the end was Sora himself due to surprise attack.
Many argue this makes Sora stronger but it doesn't. They're fight was more or less even and the deciding blow as a surprise one.

Then there's the whole case of Xehanort's various forms. Theoretically, Terranort should be far more powerful than any of them yet in both battles he fought he lost to Terra's Lingering Will (which was literally Terra's lingering thoughts in armor) and to Aqua.
From there it would logically be Ansem as he holds Xehanort's very heart itself yet he lost to Sora, Donald and Goofy. Even if they didn't deliver the final blow to him they did actually fight him to a stand still.
Xemnas himself should be powerful as diddly but in his base form without merging with his false kingdom hearts he lost to Sora in a one on one battle. Xemnas was even brought to his knees in the scene following that fight. *didn't take him long to recover though*
Then there's the latest Xehanort, YX. All of his power is borrowed according to Nomura:
— When King Mickey stopped time, Young Xehanort began to move. Since he can control time, was he breaking the King’s spell?

Nomura: Young Xehanort wasn’t using his own power at that time. The King’s magic was broken because Master Xehanort was assimilating with Young Xehanort.

— It was when the figures started appearing in the thrones.

Nomura: Indeed. Time was stopped just as Master Xehanort was materializing. So he moved his consciousness to Young Xehanort’s body. Reacting to this, King Mickey exclaimed, “That’s impossible!” Young Xehanort was holding a Keyblade that he originally wasn’t able to handle thanks to Master Xehanort’s power. Though the keychain on it is different, the Keyblade he takes out is Master Xehanort’s.

— I see. Young Xehanort himself is still in Destiny Islands and isn’t able to wield a Keyblade yet.

Nomura: Right. Even when he appeared as an additional boss in Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Final Mix, he wasn’t using a Keyblade.
There's also the debate of Terra vs Aqua. That is a matter of brains vs brawn. Terra relies on physical power and keyblade transformations while Aqua is all about magic. Who would win that fight entirely depends on if Terra could get in close enough to do damage since Aqua can use magic from a distance.

The biggest inconsistency though is secret boss battles. Many seem to forget that secret or optional bosses are made to be harder. It has nothing to do with the skill of the actual character, it's just purely gameplay mechanics at work. The developers trying to give the player a fun extra challenge.
Both YX in BBS, LW in KH2FM and Xemnas in KH1 are all harder to beat and stronger than their actual story related boss fights. This isn't because of strength but because those characters later inclusions were part of the main story, they were no longer secret bosses made for a challenge but normal bosses/characters meant to push the story along.

It's honestly hard and a near impossible task to rank these character thanks to the inconsistency of gameplay, story and other factors. That's why many such topics fall more into a argument of people arguing over whether or not their favorite characters are stronger than the others than an actual conversation.

EDIT:
So, rant aside, like Ruran mentioned it's all in the presentation. (plus a bit of misconception with a good deal of who people's more liked characters are thrown in)
KH2 was flashy and made Sora appear to be hax but at the same time the whole "true keyblade master" thing of BBS is meant to imply/state that TAV have more experience and knowledge of the keyblade and from there be stronger.

It's all just inconsistent preference.
 
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Xehanort-X-blade

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

No it's the only reason he stopped. The LS attacked Sora cause it thought "XEHANORT!!!!!!!!!!" but realized what it sensed was Ventus and stopped.

As for the power scaling. I find anyone trying to rank the characters like this is DBZ silly really. The games are inconsistent at times, Sora's level is always reset for actual in-game and canon reasons, and much like the real world how a fight would end up depends on how it's done.

For instance the MX vs Terra fight many argue over. Yes Terra is decades younger and could outlast and likely destroy MX. However MX himself is much older, cunning and downright devious.
If it was a straight up, normal fight, Terra would likely defeat his much older adversary.
HOWEVER. Like we seen in BBS, if it's a situation MX has set up with his schemes and plans it's obvious he'll come out on top which is actually what happened in BBS:


Link: BBS Ultimania - 20 Mysteries Solved! - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

Then there's the case of Roxas and Sora. They both fought rather evenly for a bit but Roxas more aggressive style brought Sora to his knees but the victor in the end was Sora himself due to surprise attack.
Many argue this makes Sora stronger but it doesn't. They're fight was more or less even and the deciding blow as a surprise one.

Then there's the whole case of Xehanort's various forms. Theoretically, Terranort should be far more powerful than any of them yet in both battles he fought he lost to Terra's Lingering Will (which was literally Terra's lingering thoughts in armor) and to Aqua.
From there it would logically be Ansem as he holds Xehanort's very heart itself yet he lost to Sora, Donald and Goofy. Even if they didn't deliver the final blow to him they did actually fight him to a stand still.
Xemnas himself should be powerful as diddly but in his base form without merging with his false kingdom hearts he lost to Sora in a one on one battle. Xemnas was even brought to his knees in the scene following that fight. *didn't take him long to recover though*
Then there's the latest Xehanort, YX. All of his power is borrowed according to Nomura:


There's also the debate of Terra vs Aqua. That is a matter of brains vs brawn. Terra relies on physical power and keyblade transformations while Aqua is all about magic. Who would win that fight entirely depends on if Terra could get in close enough to do damage since Aqua can use magic from a distance.

The biggest inconsistency though is secret boss battles. Many seem to forget that secret or optional bosses are made to be harder. It has nothing to do with the skill of the actual character, it's just purely gameplay mechanics at work. The developers trying to give the player a fun extra challenge.
Both YX in BBS, LW in KH2FM and Xemnas in KH1 are all harder to beat and stronger than their actual story related boss fights. This isn't because of strength but because those characters later inclusions were part of the main story, they were no longer secret bosses made for a challenge but normal bosses/characters meant to push the story along.

It's honestly hard and a near impossible task to rank these character thanks to the inconsistency of gameplay, story and other factors. That's why many such topics fall more into a argument of people arguing over whether or not their favorite characters are stronger than the others than an actual conversation.
i know LS attacked sora because he thought it was xehanort and i agree sora vs roxas actually its obvious roxas won but he didnt know about the calling back thats why he lost and roxas wasnt even trying to beat him was just to test him and yeah only secret bosses hard xemnas lost to sora 1on1 in DDD proof his not super strong with out KH
 

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

i know LS attacked sora because he thought it was xehanort and i agree sora vs roxas actually its obvious roxas won but he didnt know about the calling back thats why he lost and roxas wasnt even trying to beat him was just to test him and yeah only secret bosses hard xemnas lost to sora 1on1 in DDD proof his not super strong with out KH
You think Roxas won that fight? You think Roxas would have won that fight? For all we know, Roxas could have took a swing at Sora at that point, and Sora could have evaded it with a (insert sufficient evasive movement here) and re-summoned the Keyblade on his feet and attacked Roxas. But the fact is that Roxas lost. If you're going to complain that it's unfair and Roxas let down his guard, let's take a closer looks at the fight, and decide what "fair" is.
Actually, let's do this instead. You and I should fight each other. However, I get to decide WHEN we fight, meaning that I could jump out at you without warning. I also get to examine all of your fighting styles and capabilities, but you don't get to examine mine. Additionally, I get to decide WHERE the fight takes place... Now let me ask you this, does this even seem fair? I would hope that you would say no, because you have been put at every disadvantage possible. And in this case, every disadvantage for you is an advantage for me. But this is not about a fight between you and I, rather, it's about Roxas and Sora.
Roxas knew WHERE he wanted the fight to occur, WHEN he wanted to attack, and most importantly he knew EVERYTHING about Sora's skills and capabilities. Roxas was PREPARED for this fight, and he had no excuse to lose it because any person with those advantages would have won... Unless, you know, the person with the advantages was substantially weaker than the person who was being attacked. Case and point, Sora overcame the pure adversity of the fight.
 

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

You think Roxas won that fight? You think Roxas would have won that fight? For all we know, Roxas could have took a swing at Sora at that point, and Sora could have evaded it with a (insert sufficient evasive movement here) and re-summoned the Keyblade on his feet and attacked Roxas. But the fact is that Roxas lost. If you're going to complain that it's unfair and Roxas let down his guard, let's take a closer looks at the fight, and decide what "fair" is.
Actually, let's do this instead. You and I should fight each other. However, I get to decide WHEN we fight, meaning that I could jump out at you without warning. I also get to examine all of your fighting styles and capabilities, but you don't get to examine mine. Additionally, I get to decide WHERE the fight takes place... Now let me ask you this, does this even seem fair? I would hope that you would say no, because you have been put at every disadvantage possible. And in this case, every disadvantage for you is an advantage for me. But this is not about a fight between you and I, rather, it's about Roxas and Sora.
Roxas knew WHERE he wanted the fight to occur, WHEN he wanted to attack, and most importantly he knew EVERYTHING about Sora's skills and capabilities. Roxas was PREPARED for this fight, and he had no excuse to lose it because any person with those advantages would have won... Unless, you know, the person with the advantages was substantially weaker than the person who was being attacked. Case and point, Sora overcame the pure adversity of the fight.
It seems you're misunderstanding something here, as for all we know Roxas did win the fight itself as he managed to disarm Sora.
He would have won decisively the moment he put the second Keyblade into the floor to trap Sora's blade if he had bashed Sora's skull in immediately with the other one instead of wasting precious time by taking a moment to "gloat" and point his blade in Sora's face.
It was protagonist privilege and story reasons that demanded Roxas to hesitate and for Sora to make a comeback and win, that's what some people decree as "unfair" in terms of that Sora only won the battle because his character status and the plot demanded it, not because he was "better", much less stronger than Roxas.

Roxas had no choice in terms of the WHERE because, y'know, he was already trapped inside Sora's heart by that time, so he couldn't decide where he wanted the fight to occur.
I also don't know from where you get the nonsense that Roxas knew everything about Sora's skills and capabilities. Roxas was asleep and out of commission after Sora left Twilight Town for the first time until Axel's death, he had no opportunity to get to know anything like that. Heck, until Naminé told him, he didn't even know who Sora was at all.
So, out of your claims, only the WHEN can be reasonably taken into consideration, which is not that surprising as well since it was Axel's death which finally awoke Roxas inside Sora and the same catalyst that pissed him off enough to attack Sora in the first place.
This makes the "substantially weaker" claim sound more like biased Sora-fanboyism rather than any true credible facts towards their actual power levels.
They're about even in power levels for all we know.
 
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It seems you're misunderstanding something here, as for all we know Roxas did win the fight itself as he managed to disarm Sora.
He would have won decisively the moment he put the second Keyblade into the floor to trap Sora's blade if he had bashed Sora's skull in immediately with the other one instead of wasting precious time by taking a moment to "gloat" and point his blade in Sora's face.
I have seen this scene similarly. Roxas is so focused in the moment of victory, that Sora`s counter attack surprises him. I`ve never though that other might be stronger or anything. Also it a plot reason, but I have had moments in real life when my mind so focused on the victory I achieved, that it manages to ruin my performance, or the current action I am doing.
 

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It's clear Roxas is a more gloating type of fighter given he really makes degrading comments during his fights unlike Sora. The only reason I hate the ending of the fight is because it makes Roxas look like a moron for somehow not expecting Sora to regain his keyblade even though he's seen that happen plenty of times!
 

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

It seems you're misunderstanding something here, as for all we know Roxas did win the fight itself as he managed to disarm Sora.
He would have won decisively the moment he put the second Keyblade into the floor to trap Sora's blade if he had bashed Sora's skull in immediately with the other one instead of wasting precious time by taking a moment to "gloat" and point his blade in Sora's face.
It was protagonist privilege and story reasons that demanded Roxas to hesitate and for Sora to make a comeback and win, that's what some people decree as "unfair" in terms of that Sora only won the battle because his character status and the plot demanded it, not because he was "better", much less stronger than Roxas.

Roxas had no choice in terms of the WHERE because, y'know, he was already trapped inside Sora's heart by that time, so he couldn't decide where he wanted the fight to occur.
I also don't know from where you get the nonsense that Roxas knew everything about Sora's skills and capabilities. Roxas was asleep and out of commission after Sora left Twilight Town for the first time until Axel's death, he had no opportunity to get to know anything like that. Heck, until Naminé told him, he didn't even know who Sora was at all.
So, out of your claims, only the WHEN can be reasonably taken into consideration, which is not that surprising as well since it was Axel's death which finally awoke Roxas inside Sora and the same catalyst that pissed him off enough to attack Sora in the first place.
This makes the "substantially weaker" claim sound more like biased Sora-fanboyism rather than any true credible facts towards their actual power levels.
They're about even in power levels for all we know.
No it seems that you are the misunderstanding the situation. First of all, disarming your opponent does not mean you win the damn fight. That's like saying a football team wins the game because they intercepted a pass in the first quarter of the game. What about the rest of the fight? The conclusion of the fight is not decided until the fat lady sings. If Roxas were to win that fight, he would have needed to successfully strike Sora at least 1 time and render Sora incapable of fighting anymore. The fact is that Roxas never hit Sora a single time, and therefore cannot be declared as the victor.
But in any case, Roxas would not have hit Sora anyways.
Let's rewind to Roxas's fight with Riku. When Roxas had Riku on the ground, Riku did not have his Keyblade in his hand. According to your mode of thought, Roxas should have "bashed his skull in" due to the fact that Riku was not holding a weapon. What happens next? Roxas takes a swing at Riku and Riku IMMIDIEATELY countered Roxas's sorry ass. What does this show us?It shows us that Roxas EASILY be countered by a person that his disarmed opponent, even whilst Roxas is swinging his weapon and attempting to bash his oppoenents head in.
Now let's rewind even further to when Sora and Riku (possessed by Ansem) were fighting. Sora was hurt by Kairi's heart reacting to Riku's Keyblade, and this caused Sora to fall to his knees. Sora is in a situation where his is both hurt AND un armed. Referring to your mode of thought once again, the possessed Riku should have "bashed Sora's head in". But what happens? Riku takes a swing at the seemingly defenseless Sora, and Sora (within a fraction of a second) IMMIEDIATELY summons forth his Keyblade and blocks Riku's attack. What does this show us? It shows that Sora is fully capable of defending himself AT ANY POINT when he is on the gorind and unarmed.
Now, returning to the Sora vs Roxas fight, we have Roxas against an unarmed Sora. Referring to your mode of thought, Roxas should bash Sora's head in, right? WRONG! Given that Roxas can get FUCKED OVER by a person who was unarmed only 2 seconds ago, and Given tht Sora can STOP an attack within a fraction of a second, this means it was far more likely that Roxas was going to get countered by Sora no matter how he would have tried to "bash" Sora's head in. Face it,Roxas SUCKS at beating opponents that are at a disadvantage, and Sora is pretty damn good at countering. These are facts.

And what the hell is this protagonist privelige you're referring to? As far as I'm concerned, the protagonist was pretty damn weak in Chain of Memories and Dream Drop Distance. Sora is not exempt from getting the shaft in the KH series, so get this delusion put of your head.

As far as where the fight would occur, it would probably only have occured in Sora's heart regardless. But Kingchoch was correct about how Roxas knew about Sora's capabilities. Roxas was definitely not out of commission for KH2. Otherwise Sora wouldn't have experienced roxas's presence when he picked up the blue orb. Another way Roxas could have learned Sora's movements would be through his dreams of Sora's memories. It's kinda funny how Roxas had Sora's entire play book and still couldn't manage to beat him xD
But as far as when the fight would occur, it makes sense that it would be after Axel's destruction. Even Xemnas said that it would have somehow drawn Roxas out.

So there you go kid, those are the facts. Just as kingchoch said, Roxas had literally no excuse to lose that fight. He knew Sora's skills, and he still lost. Plus, Roxas apparently sucks at finishing his downed opponents while Sora is apparently good at countering after he is disarmed. Btw, you saying that Sora only won the fight because the story demanded it makes you sound like a Roxas fanboy. Facts talk, and bullshit walks.
 

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Re: why people think TAV are weak

Even if you disagree with another member, please don't be antagonistic.

Anyway, this topic is almost a year old and the conversation long over.
 
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