But you can't do that, because of the order of events. >_< As I've explained repeatedly.
Then I feel like we have some sort of misunderstanding on what happens when, and what means what, because I still see no problem.
Look, it's an issue of causation here: either the destruction of the X-blade kills Vanitas, or Vanitas' death destroys the X-blade.
Vanitas literally can't have been killed by the destruction of the X-blade, because he's already dying -- he's unconscious and falling, even if he hasn't started glowing yet -- before it disintegrates. In fact, no physical damage is done to the X-blade at all in that scene before Vanitas closes his eyes and it doesn't show any reaction to Vanitas letting go of it, so Vanitas' demise is the only possible reason for its destruction.
I agree that he's dying, before the X-Blade is even destroyed. But not dead, and that's the key.
Destroying the X-Blade would destroy Ven's heart, right? And yet, the X-Blade is destroyed, and for some seconds, Ven is still around. There's simply a delay in reaction, as is customary in KH (with all the antics that go on for characters as they die)
Vanitas was dying because Ven laid the smackdown on him, this causes the destruction of the X-Blade and then, albeit shorter than Ven (and for obvious reasons) Vanitas dies.
So it seems obvious to me that the X-Blade is destroyed in the process of death/separation. There reaches a point when the fusion is no longer stable, but that doesn't have to be at the very instant of death.
And I can't believe how we are debating over something so stupid.
In any case, let's say Vanitas is unconscious instead of dead. What, exactly, does that change in this argument? Vanitas can no more be awake and in control of the Ventus-Vanitas body while his heart is unconscious than he can if it's dead. =P
Never said he was unconscious. I said he closed his eyes, which he did. You can't say that he was unconscious, just as how you can't say he was dead at that instant.
Let me try to explain my position on timing better -- the amount of time something takes is, of course, impossible to compare. But what timing can be used for is to show whether things are intended to be simultaneous or distinct.
I admit that using the number of seconds is probably not the best way to go about this, which I used to avoid subjectivity. In fact, it disguises some things that could have been fairly useful to me (like the fact that, despite real time elapsing between Vanitas falling back with his eyes closed and him being shown again falling, glowing and disappearing, that's still really one uninterrupted action). But bringing the argument back to that is completely pointless, because my arguments don't rely on that degree of timing -- all I need to say is that X is clearly intended to be earlier and distinct from Y, and Y is clearly intended to be earlier and distinct from Z, hence Z cannot possibly happen before X.
Apply this to something, because your talking in generality doesn't really do anything.
You're making a bigger deal out of the question of when Vanitas dies than what it deserves. On the inside, he's at the very least dying when the X-blade disintegrates, and on the outside he's clearly conscious for at least a few seconds after Aqua cracks the X-blade -- he could die at several points after that, but it doesn't particularly matter when he dies if the earliest point is too late. =P
I'm not. Vanitas dying at the moment he disintegrates is clear cut and makes sense given what we know about death in KH (no corpses, as I said), whereas your idea of his death is more ambiguous and problematic.
I don't see the problem with him maintaining control of the body as he is dying internally. Do other characters lose control of their bodies and become lifeless dolls as they are dying? No (wouldn't make sense because then we wouldn't even be able to tell when they are dying and when they are dead). Eg Nobodies are still talking/moving even as they fade back into darkness.
if you're paying attention
HOHO! Get it folks?
You don't read half of what I write, do you?
And once more: HOHO!
So, no. I don't think that they took the time to coordinate duration.
But order? Of the biggest, most climactic scene in two of the game's three scenarios? Yeah, I think they coordinated order, and I think they'd have been massively irresponsible as writers if they didn't. =P We're not talking about an entire game's worth of cutscenes here -- we're talking about two of the most important cutscenes in the entire game, with a total length under ten minutes.
Then this is where we simply disagree. I don't think while making one cutscene here, they were keeping in mind the other, especially since there's no tangible link between them (ie the same scene from two different perspectives). And as I said, even in such scenes, we know they weren't always up to par. As a couple examples, the timing of Terra going back inside Land of Departure's castle is noticeably longer in Terra's scenario than Aqua's based on the start of the bells, and the order of the first three worlds for TAV doesn't make sense based on when they interact with each other. And I don't think the fan-ascribed importance matters in that regard, especially since no one is ever going to notice something like this, and even if they did, it shouldn't matter.
So I don't find it "massively irresponsible" of the writers, nor do I consider it disrespectful to point it out.
Did you forget what my theory was?
As an aside, hard to have much of your theory to forget over the course of this debate considering it's only been revealed in bits and pieces. Eg that it was based on another plane of time was only established when I was the one who brought it up.
Vanitas loses control of the X-blade almost instantaneously on the outside because Aqua broke it, rather than because of anything Ven did.
Right, well then, you should have no problem saying that all of that energy shooting out of the X-Blade was also a direct result of Aqua cracking it and not due to Vanitas and Ven fighting. After all, the character report does say:
She summoned the last of
her strength and brought the Keyblade crashing down on Vanitas, cracking the
x-blade and releasing a torrent of energy that spilled out into the Keyblade
The wording is necessarily connotative of Aqua's breaking the X-Blade releasing that energy, not an internal battle, which holds with my theory. Ven and Vanitas would have already fought at that point, the internal key would have just been destroyed and Aqua destroying the shell of the external key would have released that pent up energy.
I already explained why Vanitas said that in my last post -- because there is every reason in the universe for the external events to be ignored in this scene! The writers don't want to put it there because it would spoil Aqua's story, and Vanitas doesn't want to say it because it would mean admitting to Ven that Aqua's still alive and resisting him.
Riddle me this: what would be gained by Vanitas saying "our union was interrupted?" It'd have players thinking, "oh, hey, Aqua's okay!" instead of wondering what happened to her. It'd make Vanitas sound weak, since he'd be admitting failure. It'd be a complete and utter derail of how that conversation was supposed to go, because Ven would demand details, and that would have little purpose besides spoiling Aqua's story. It'd be absolutely and utterly out of character for Vanitas, basically turning him into Mr. Exposition no matter how unlikely he is to actually explain things properly in that context.
I think Zulkir adequately responds to this, and I think you're failing to understand the difference between exposition and characterized dialogue.
There's literally no reason for Vanitas to lie at that point because if he did, the player would never even know, thus the effect is lost. Furthermore, we would be left with misleading information since it is also not covered in Aqua's story. On that note it is, unsurprisingly, not even covered in the character reports, the one place it should have been. Gee, wonder why.
(you keep ignoring the fact that Vanitas calls the X-blade broken rather than incomplete or unfinished)
The fact that he uses "not finished" interchangeably with "broken" as you yourself pointed out shows that these are being used as synonyms. Which, you know, they are.
There is only one X-Blade, and it clearly still exists even before their union (on whatever plane of existence), so to say their union forged it in a broken state is totally acceptable.
And, yes, I think Vanitas was wielding a complete X-blade when he fought Aqua? You know why? Because they made a Complete X-blade design and used it in that fight. Because the X-blade that Vanitas used against Aqua had an absurd level of cutscene power that Ven simply didn't face in his own scenario (if Aqua was thrown back into a wall by a simple swing of an Incomplete X-blade, Ven certainly should have too given that he's canonically weaker than her). Why should the weapon Ventus-Vanitas wields in that fight even exist in that form if Ven was never subdued?
Because there's a difference between the internal and external key.
Internally from the start the X-Blade was broken because of their incomplete union. Thus it only looked complete externally. And then Aqua physically broke it
Honestly, if a complete X-Blade can be stopped that easily, it isn't worth the endeavor and MX should give up on it. It can be destroyed that easily by bonds when that has happened to no other weapon in the series. Sora is bond-central, so pretty sure a completed X-Blade would be cake to destroy.
Ven's destruction of the internal key prior to Aqua makes much more sense because it actually provides a legitimate, logical explanation for why she could do so- because the X-Blade had already been severed internally by one of its "ingredients."
Also, LOOK AT DA POWER OF DA X-BLADE IT MUST BE COMPLETE DESPITE THE FACT THAT I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO MEASURE POWER IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE POWER OF A COMPLETED X-BLADE IS SUPPOSED TO BE.
If you're right, then Aqua couldn't have done anything without Ven enabling it, which is really annoying given that she's the only female character in KH doing any of the real work to begin with. =/
Yeah, preserving Ven in the CoW and then beating Terranort and sacrificing herself- she totally doesn't have enough of a role, let's steal Ven's glory despite the fact that he was passive and subdued most of the time and finally managed to do something.
Works both ways.
Why I’m saying this has absolutely nothing to do with character preference. I actually like Aqua more (think I explained why in the Xion Hate club).
The same thing you did when I quoted you, and the same thing I was doing sarcastically in response.
And did you forget what game we're talking about here? Convoluted and counter-intuitive is just how Kingdom Hearts rolls. If it wasn't, there wouldn't need to be two characters involved in the X-blade's destruction in the first place. =P
It's certainly not unprecedented for characters to lie outright in important scenes -- remember Xion pretending that she'd gone mad and wanted to absorb Roxas when she really just wanted Roxas to kill her?
Remember that time when it was made clear after the fact that Xion was lying and thus it made sense to have the lie in the first place, since the player could actually know it WAS a lie?
You choose that line as evidence? Seriously? First off, MX and Terra are both inside Apprentice Xehanort at that point, and both of them are locked out. And, more importantly, it's far too general to prove that he knows exactly what's been happening outside -- all it proves is that he knows that he's in control of the body, which is blatantly obvious even from the inside.
Locked out? Huh? MX flat out says there that he’s in control.
I don’t understand how you can be IN CONTROL but not know what you’re doing. If you control the body
how the fuck do you not know what’s going on outside? If that’s the case, hilarity ensues, because Apprentice Xehanort (and Vanitas) would be walking into walls and shit.
I just have serious trouble imagining that fight working out with Vanitas being fully conscious both on the outside fighting Aqua and on the inside fighting Ven at the same time. How can he see both sets of events at the same time? How can he react with both real and mental muscles in different ways at the same time? There are no other scenes in which we see characters in their Dive to the Heart while doing anything with their bodies -- Sora's sleeping, Roxas is transported away bodily, young Ven's in a coma, and Terra and Master Xehanort are both locked out of Apprentice Xehanort's body.
Because that’s Vanitas’ heart fighting against Ven’s heart, so what we’re seeing is a sort of metaphysical battle. I don’t understand how it’s so hard to think that Vanitas could be fighting Ven internally and Aqua externally. I think you’re thinking of it way too literally.
The one where he says the X-blade is broken? I think that proves evidence against your idea too. You're trying to use an ambiguous line to prove more than it's capable of proving.
“You're trying to use an ambiguous line to prove more than it's capable of proving.”
-uses the word broken to try to prove Aqua broke it-
I am assuming nothing more than what was presented to us. The X-Blade was broken and their union was not finished.
As the character reports put it:
“but it was damaged; their union had not been finished”
Let’s have a grammar lesson. What is the purpose of a semicolon? To provide a close connection between two sentences/clauses, eg through causation
. That is, the wording here means that the X-Blade was damaged BECAUSE the union had not finished. And I am assuming nothing more than that, while you are suggesting that the union was not finished because of Aqua, which is never even remotely hinted at despite plenty of chances to do so.
Here, let's try it this way: Ventus-Vanitas and the X-blade are the same thing -- the fusion between Ven and Vanitas' hearts. If something happens to weaken the X-blade, the Ventus-Vanitas fusion should be weakened as well. However, there's no indication of that at any point before a few seconds after Aqua cracks the X-blade. The weakening of the Ventus/Vanitas fusion doesn't have to take the form of Ven gaining control of their combined body, but it ought to have some visual representation, and that simply doesn't exist in the game.
I agree that Ventus/Vanitas are representative of the X-Blade, but what muddies the whole thing up is the fact that they don’t die at the same time. The X-Blade is destroyed, Vanitas disintegrates, Ven disintegrates. If we’re taking a strict approach, then this should have all happened simultaneously. But as I’ve discussed, there’s that sort of death delay.
Who said it needs a visual representation, and more importantly, who made you the decider of that? I mean, shit, you said that the dark suit on the outside disappears when Vanitas on the inside loses control
meaning we have no visual representation in Aqua’s story of when Vanitas DIES.
As I said, there is a difference between the internal and external key, and the external doesn’t have to reflect the internal. As an example, the Keyblade Graveyard. Those “lifeless keys” which “used to be full of power”? What do you think happened to them. Obviously, the “internal keys” are gone, the heart/souls of the keyblades. So they become useless scrap metal. But they’re not destroyed.
Similar for the X-Blade. It was incomplete from the beginning despite the fact that it looked complete. Then Ven destroys the internal key, it becomes scrap, and Aqua manages to physically break it and release that energy.
Sora woke up naturally in his Destati as part of a dream. If you want to admit Vanitas' body was asleep, go right ahead, but then I've already won.
Ven's condition is completely unlike any other Dive to the Heart that we see, because it's caused by Vanitas trying to force a union between both of them and completely dominate Ven's heart. This means that Sora's Dive to the Heart is not necessarily the best example to use -- especially since Vanitas is already fully awake when Ven wakes up.
Sooo it must just be a COMPLETE coincidence that Ven enters this Dive to the Heart in the exact same manner as Sora... and Roxas... and himself at the beginning of the game.
I agree that these are different circumstances but the fact that they all enter using the same animation should be telling you something.
Listen, because you’re so stuck on some kind of explanation for the incomplete union, maybe putting this in DBZ terms will make you understand.
In DBZ (can’t believe I’m using this but it’s the closest thing I could think of), you need to have equal power levels to fuse, correct? A similar case in KH, but I don’t imagine they need to be the exact same, just within a range. Otherwise, if one power is significantly stronger than the other, the weaker will be destroyed, as MX suggests in his report. That was the whole point of making Ven stronger, to have him on level with Vanitas. However, the light in his heart proved to be stronger than anticipated. It was able to resist a complete union.
Can this occur unconsciously? YES. The power in his heart is inherent, it’s not going to go away if he’s passed out.
...and you're forgetting the fact that they're trying to avoid spoiling Aqua's scenario, aren't you? -_- Because that would be a great way to ruin her entire ending, and add little else. (Besides, why would Aqua cracking the X-blade take the form of her calling out to Ven in his mind? She's trying to subdue Ventus-Vanitas, not plead for Ven to wake up -_- )
Complete load of bullshit. If they have to spoil, they will, though even in this case they can keep it vague. As an example, we find out what Vanitas is in Terra’s scenario, spoiling for Ventus, but we don’t see Vanitas’ face. Similarly, we could hear Aqua’s voice or that the union had been interrupted, and then find out exactly what happened in Aqua’s scenario.
Otherwise, as I said a million times, by upholding some spoiler integrity then they lose an actual explanation and no one ever knows what actually happens. Of course, they could at least explain it in the Character Reports but OH WAIT... they don’t. Funny.
I don't need kicking and screaming, but I do need some indication that Ven's subconscious knew that it had fought Vanitas off.