Why does kh2 final form have better combos than kh3 final form?

[disney233]

This comment section shows just how high of a pedestal KH2 is on. No one WANTS to care about the other installments. Even 1, when it had the best usage of the Disney worlds. It'll always just be 2.

 

[Deliverance]

If you set Auto-Drive to happen, you just hit triangle to kill everyone.

That’s not even close to being true. Simply activating a Drive isn’t going to clear the whole room.

I think this conversation basically shows why they change things - we had different experiences and perceptions. You had all this thought put into choosing drive forms. I barely used them after the first few Disney worlds and the only one I used was Valor because Wisdom is a waste of time IMO. After that I used Master Form whenever I was in a rush to get through a world and then Final Form against the Data Organization to kill them in the blink of an eye. So I think it comes down to what each individual player likes and actually uses in combat in KH. I will say that I don't really even use the keyblade transformations either when playing the story. If I feel like it, I'll use it, but Sora is already so OP on his own that it isn't a must. That's how drives are and so are keyblade transformations. The only difference that I can say is that I needed Final Form to kill the Data Organization, while Ultimate Form didn't guarantee me instant wins like Final Form. Whether that's a testament to the fights themselves or the game mechanics or me as a crappy player, I don't know.

Ultimately, I don't see what's the big deal not having drive forms. They were an additional power-up during fights that Sora can use, they just swapped that out for another power-up. I think that drive forms were perfect for KH2 and keyblade transformations were perfect for KH3. Those power-ups each suited the game that they were placed in.

I think you’re simplifying a complex issue. If a developer wants to create a combat system worth its salt, they can’t just implement mechanics that work at a basic level. When a player decides to fully invest in that system, what do the mechanics make them do? If capitalizing on your skill results in important decision-making in one game, but not the other, then those mechanics aren’t on the same level. We can’t have a proper discussion on mechanics if we just stop at the fact that they work.

 

[Face My Fears]

That’s not even close to being true. Simply activating a Drive isn’t going to clear the whole room.


I think you’re simplifying a complex issue. If a developer wants to create a combat system worth its salt, they can’t just implement mechanics that work at a basic level. When a player decides to fully invest in that system, what do the mechanics make them do? If capitalizing on your skill results in important decision-making in one game, but not the other, then those mechanics aren’t on the same level. We can’t have a proper discussion on mechanics if we just stop at the fact that they work.

Well I made it clear that I was looking at the issue simply because that's the only way I can process it. The reason I enjoy KH as a video game that I play is because the system is so simple. If I encounter a boss that's difficult, I just level up/use items to increase stats, equip better stuff, then beat the boss. Sure some fights require immense strategy (like Yozora), but I was able to fluke one victory out of him by boosting my stats. Yozora is probably the limit of what I would like to see in difficulty in a KH game. This isn't Dark Souls or some other game that is renowned for its difficulty.

In my eyes, KH2's apparently complex and deep combat is only that way if you purposefully limit yourself to have that be exposed. I think the same can be said about KH1 and KH3. Of course, I would never do a level 1 run in any of those games because I don't see the fun in that at all. Other people probably do (hence why they made no EXP an ability in all the recent games), but I don't think the developers make KH to cater to people who are looking for a difficult/complex combat system.

And yes, simply activating Final Form will clear a whole room after you do Thundaga or Reflega. Using Final Form against the hardest fights in the game (Data Organization) will guarantee a victory by mostly hitting X and Reflega. That's what I did to Lingering Will and I beat him easily! No strategy needed. I don't think the fights were intended to be experienced that way, but as it's an RPG, I can choose how I want the fight to go and I definitely didn't want to suffer losing all the time because I'm not a talented gamer that can beat Critical Lingering Will on Level 1 with no items or abilities and using Kingdom Key.

But I think this discussion shouldn't be about the game's combat system (which I will admit I am not an expert on understanding its intricacies), but KH2's Final Form having better combos than KH3 Ultimate Form. Aesthetically, I do prefer the combos from Final Form because I like seeing the two keyblades that I chose floating around me and part of the combo. Ultimate Form doesn't feel as powerful as Final Form, it feels more balanced (like attack/magic/speed are on the same increased level). Why is Final Form better? Probably because it was meant to be a surprise end-game form, since it originally appeared randomly. I remember I got it when you're trying to destroy the cylinders at the end of the game and I was so surprised (and thankful because I was going into a Drive in desperation).

 

[Deliverance]

Well I made it clear that I was looking at the issue simply because that's the only way I can process it. The reason I enjoy KH as a video game that I play is because the system is so simple. If I encounter a boss that's difficult, I just level up/use items to increase stats, equip better stuff, then beat the boss. Sure some fights require immense strategy (like Yozora), but I was able to fluke one victory out of him by boosting my stats. Yozora is probably the limit of what I would like to see in difficulty in a KH game. This isn't Dark Souls or some other game that is renowned for its difficulty.

In my eyes, KH2's apparently complex and deep combat is only that way if you purposefully limit yourself to have that be exposed. I think the same can be said about KH1 and KH3. Of course, I would never do a level 1 run in any of those games because I don't see the fun in that at all. Other people probably do (hence why they made no EXP an ability in all the recent games), but I don't think the developers make KH to cater to people who are looking for a difficult/complex combat system.

And yes, simply activating Final Form will clear a whole room after you do Thundaga or Reflega. Using Final Form against the hardest fights in the game (Data Organization) will guarantee a victory by mostly hitting X and Reflega. That's what I did to Lingering Will and I beat him easily! No strategy needed. I don't think the fights were intended to be experienced that way, but as it's an RPG, I can choose how I want the fight to go and I definitely didn't want to suffer losing all the time because I'm not a talented gamer that can beat Critical Lingering Will on Level 1 with no items or abilities and using Kingdom Key.

But I think this discussion shouldn't be about the game's combat system (which I will admit I am not an expert on understanding its intricacies), but KH2's Final Form having better combos than KH3 Ultimate Form. Aesthetically, I do prefer the combos from Final Form because I like seeing the two keyblades that I chose floating around me and part of the combo. Ultimate Form doesn't feel as powerful as Final Form, it feels more balanced (like attack/magic/speed are on the same increased level). Why is Final Form better? Probably because it was meant to be a surprise end-game form, since it originally appeared randomly. I remember I got it when you're trying to destroy the cylinders at the end of the game and I was so surprised (and thankful because I was going into a Drive in desperation).

1. You are really reaching with that Final Form comparison. Look at how many qualifiers you had to tack on to put it on 3’s level. “If you use this specific ability with this specific end-game form and use these specific magic combinations, it’s the same as 3”. Pressing triangle in a Transformation will literally nuke the screen. Period. No specific weapon, ability or cost required. They’re not the same.
2. This is why I said talking about Final and Ultimate in terms of balance isn’t a good idea. KH2 doesn’t begin the moment you get Final and unlock the Data Org. There’s a whole 25 hours of game where it’s not available. So it shouldn’t be used as any kind of basis to judge the Drive system as a whole.

Anyone who tells you 2’s system is only good when you play No Damage LV1 Critical doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Difficulty is a factor of combat systems but it doesn’t determine whether a mechanic itself is well designed. In fact, sometimes it does the opposite. Higher difficulties stretch mechanics to their limit so any flaws they may have are exasperated. If something is well designed then it’s well designed. Doesn’t matter if you’re playing on Beginner or Critical, the Drive system stays the same. Good design isn’t exclusive to hard games.

 

[Face My Fears]

1. You are really reaching with that Final Form comparison. Look at how many qualifiers you had to tack on to put it on 3’s level. “If you use this specific ability with this specific end-game form and use these specific magic combinations, it’s the same as 3”. Pressing triangle in a Transformation will literally nuke the screen. Period. No specific weapon, ability or cost required. They’re not the same.
2. This is why I said talking about Final and Ultimate in terms of balance isn’t a good idea. KH2 doesn’t begin the moment you get Final and unlock the Data Org. There’s a whole 25 hours of game where it’s not available. So it shouldn’t be used as any kind of basis to judge the Drive system as a whole.

Anyone who tells you 2’s system is only good when you play No Damage LV1 Critical doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Difficulty is a factor of combat systems but it doesn’t determine whether a mechanic itself is well designed. In fact, sometimes it does the opposite. Higher difficulties stretch mechanics to their limit so any flaws they may have are exasperated. If something is well designed then it’s well designed. Doesn’t matter if you’re playing on Beginner or Critical, the Drive system stays the same. Good design isn’t exclusive to hard games.

I would argue that the screen nuke with triangle for Ultimate Form is comparable to Final Form's overpowered magic/abilities. One just does the damage quicker, but in terms of what the form can do Final Form is a much more powerful form. I will say again that I think each feature (keyblade transformation/drive forms) worked for the game they were in. I think Drives would have been OP in KH3 and Keyblade Transformations not useful in KH2.

No one told me KH2's system was only good when you play no damage LV1 Critical. I just always hear that KH2's fighting system is the best and that you can really see it when playing LV1 Critical. When I looked up videos of that, I just see long fights. Same with KH3 LV1 Critical no damage.

Both Drive and Keyblade Transformations aren't necessary to beat the game. You can go through the entire game doing nothing but dodging and hitting X, which will probably be tedious and not fun. All these features like magic, summons, limits, drive, keyblade transformations, lockshot etc. are for the players to decide how they want to fight. You don't need to use any of them. I rarely use Drive forms unless I want to rush through enemies. I like using the keyblade transformations more because visually it feels more Disney to me than the Drive form just changing Sora's attire. I like both a lot. I just don't get why people are angry that KH3 tried something new. Every game can't carry forward everything from past games. KH3 was trying to go big visually and keyblade transformations do that, I'm sure they could have updated Drive forms to do that as well... but then we'd be right back here with the complaints that it's not like KH2. So what can they really do, if people will always complain that it's "not KH2, so it sucks".

EDIT: I do want to toss in that I don't think I'm qualified to speak about the KH battle system beyond the basics because I'm really not a gamer. I don't know how to analyze the battle system in-depth or anything, so I can just talk about how the system makes me feel and the people that I've played KH with.

 

[Launchpad]

EDIT: I do want to toss in that I don't think I'm qualified to speak about the KH battle system beyond the basics because I'm really not a gamer. I don't know how to analyze the battle system in-depth or anything, so I can just talk about how the system makes me feel and the people that I've played KH with.

This is an interesting piece of your post. While I'm not really about people adopting a gatekeepy, elitist pro gamer perspective, I do think it's important to recognize that, even from a casual perspective, better and deeper mechanics for pros is not only a net gain for them, but will likely subtly increase your overall enjoyment too. If something feels better and makes sense, that's good even on the easiest difficulty. That's why KH2 feels smooth as butter and is fun even when you're wiping through everything.

In turn, the very fact that KH has once or twice put itself on the map as a genuinely good action game creates an eternal expectation from fans who enjoyed those instances that KH can and SHOULD improve and retain that level of quality. 3RM did the most despicable thing of all-- It gave me hope for the future. And I suspect that only happened because so many core fans were vocal about the gameplay for so long. "It's good enough for me, stop complaining" didn't bring us ReMind.

 

[Face My Fears]

This is an interesting piece of your post. While I'm not really about people adopting a gatekeepy, elitist pro gamer perspective, I do think it's important to recognize that, even from a casual perspective, better and deeper mechanics for pros is not only a net gain for them, but will likely subtly increase your overall enjoyment too. If something feels better and makes sense, that's good even on the easiest difficulty. That's why KH2 feels smooth as butter and is fun even when you're wiping through everything.

In turn, the very fact that KH has once or twice put itself on the map as a genuinely good action game creates an eternal expectation from fans who enjoyed those instances that KH can and SHOULD improve and retain that level of quality. 3RM did the most despicable thing of all-- It gave me hope for the future. And I suspect that only happened because so many core fans were vocal about the gameplay for so long. "It's good enough for me, stop complaining" didn't bring us ReMind.

Well like I said, I'm definitely not qualified to comment on quality of the battle system beyond "I like it". All three main title games, I thoroughly enjoyed their battle systems (vanilla and Re). I don't even notice any changes in the battle system for ReMIND and vanilla KH3 - which would be the system that would be most fresh in my mind between playing vanilla and Re (since KH1 and KH2 ReMixes came out in the US years after the vanilla ones). I did notice that critical mode made you have to use more skills, like blocking, but aside from that I didn't notice some grand improvement from what KH3 provided.

This discussion has made me want to try the Data Organization/Lingering Will in KH2 without using Final Form and see what happens. Maybe I will be able to discover the deeper mechanics at work in KH2.

 

[Deliverance]

I would argue that the screen nuke with triangle for Ultimate Form is comparable to Final Form's overpowered magic/abilities. One just does the damage quicker, but in terms of what the form can do Final Form is a much more powerful form. I will say again that I think each feature (keyblade transformation/drive forms) worked for the game they were in. I think Drives would have been OP in KH3 and Keyblade Transformations not useful in KH2.

No one told me KH2's system was only good when you play no damage LV1 Critical. I just always hear that KH2's fighting system is the best and that you can really see it when playing LV1 Critical. When I looked up videos of that, I just see long fights. Same with KH3 LV1 Critical no damage.

Both Drive and Keyblade Transformations aren't necessary to beat the game. You can go through the entire game doing nothing but dodging and hitting X, which will probably be tedious and not fun. All these features like magic, summons, limits, drive, keyblade transformations, lockshot etc. are for the players to decide how they want to fight. You don't need to use any of them. I rarely use Drive forms unless I want to rush through enemies. I like using the keyblade transformations more because visually it feels more Disney to me than the Drive form just changing Sora's attire. I like both a lot. I just don't get why people are angry that KH3 tried something new. Every game can't carry forward everything from past games. KH3 was trying to go big visually and keyblade transformations do that, I'm sure they could have updated Drive forms to do that as well... but then we'd be right back here with the complaints that it's not like KH2. So what can they really do, if people will always complain that it's "not KH2, so it sucks".

EDIT: I do want to toss in that I don't think I'm qualified to speak about the KH battle system beyond the basics because I'm really not a gamer. I don't know how to analyze the battle system in-depth or anything, so I can just talk about how the system makes me feel and the people that I've played KH with.

Look, I don’t know if you were expecting some DMC combo mad level gameplay when you looked up videos on Critical, but the decision-making KH2 allows isn’t something you can just watch in a video. It’s something you do. A good game isn’t going to sit you down and make you learn how the mechanics work and how they’re meant to be used. Because that’s boring. It takes investment and experimentation.

I can understand your position but I can’t accept a sequel that caters to only one side of the skill divide when the previous game accommodated both. I genuinely tried to invest in 3, but I only wasted my time.