Why do so many hate Xion?



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Muke

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I feel like this is a teenager thing. At least for some teenagers.
No. I am a teenager, and that means that I also have teenager friends. No teenager is like Roxas.

How many people would care deeply about all of their coworkers/classmates/etc.? It's pretty normal to find a couple you're close with. I believe he cares about the others, but it's on a basic, colleague level.
When he asks Saïx about what happened at Castle Oblivion, he only cares for Axel, which kinda makes him look like a dick. If some of your friends, including your best friend, went to a trip and you heard some rumors, would you go "so what happened to my best friend?!?" or would you go "what happened to them?!", because I'm sure most people would still ask the latter and show concern for everyone?


I think it's interesting Roxas was interpreted that way in KH2. To me, Days makes sense as a background. He's angry at Sora, and Days gives him reason to be.
A stupid reason. As Void said, it was sudden and came out of nowhere.

KH2!Roxas was mysterious, kind of a villain, he was sassy, aggressive, questioning… he just wanted to be his own person, he just wanted answers. And then we have Days!Roxas, who is this angsty, whiny teenager who acts like a five-year-old and nothing like his KH2-and-onward incarnation. There's a reason people always differentiate between Roxas and Days!Roxas.
 

UmbraTsuki

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No. I am a teenager, and that means that I also have teenager friends. No teenager is like Roxas.
I was recently a teenager, and I definitely knew teenagers like Roxas.

When he asks Saïx about what happened at Castle Oblivion, he only cares for Axel, which kinda makes him look like a dick. If some of your friends, including your best friend, went to a trip and you heard some rumors, would you go "so what happened to my best friend?!?" or would you go "what happened to them?!", because I'm sure most people would still ask the latter and show concern for everyone?
At that point, most of the Organization members were basically strangers to Roxas. There's even a difference in that the Org members in KH2 will even call Sora by Roxas's name, while the members in CoM mention similarities but don't act as if they know him personally. A group of strangers+a friend is much different than a group of friends. He did sound like an ass, but tact doesn't have to be high on his priority list.

A stupid reason. As Void said, it was sudden and came out of nowhere.

KH2!Roxas was mysterious, kind of a villain, he was sassy, aggressive, questioning… he just wanted to be his own person, he just wanted answers. And then we have Days!Roxas, who is this angsty, whiny teenager who acts like a five-year-old and nothing like his KH2-and-onward incarnation. There's a reason people always differentiate between Roxas and Days!Roxas.
To me, there was never a strong difference between KH2/Days Roxas. Again, I played Days first, so that affects things, but I feel like just because KH2!Roxas could have been interpreted as more mature/mysterious/villain-like/etc. just by his short appearances there, does not mean that was the correct interpretation.
 

Muke

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To me, there was never a strong difference between KH2/Days Roxas.
I… literally listed the differences? That's not even an opinion, those were literally his KH2 incarnation and his Days incarnation.

I played Days first, so that affects things
I don't really see it. Even if I were to play Days and then KH2 now and acted as if I just got introduced to the series, it's still WAY too sudden and different. He's just not the same person. And no, that's not character development
 

UmbraTsuki

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I… literally listed the differences? That's not even an opinion, those were literally his KH2 incarnation and his Days incarnation.

I don't really see it. Even if I were to play Days and then KH2 now and acted as if I just got introduced to the series, it's still WAY too sudden and different. He's just not the same person. And no, that's not character development
It's still an interpretation. I haven't played the games in a while, so I'll see if anything changes when I play through this time, but I do know I didn't feel it was sudden or drastically different.
We could speculate all we want about how we'd feel if we played the games in a different order, but we'll never know. I just don't see how order of gameplay wouldn't affect things.
 

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Xion added first and foremost the drama to the game. If Roxas left Organization 13 for other reasons, this did not cause so many emotions in many people. Left and let (and that's right). Yes, it would be useful to learn more about other members of the organization, but if Xion lacked drama, it simply disappeared, it was her story and her friendship with Roxas, Axel and "death". Make this story so dramatic and sad at the end. Sorry for my English I hope you understand what I'm talking about.)
 

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Xion added first and foremost the drama to the game.
Too much drama, might I add.

If Roxas left Organization 13 for other reasons, this did not cause so many emotions in many people.
Which would've been awesome, then so many people wouldn't have felt angry and disappointed

Yes, it would be useful to learn more about other members of the organization, but if Xion lacked drama, it simply disappeared, it was her story and her friendship with Roxas, Axel and "death". Make this story so dramatic and sad at the end.
It was too much Xion and too little organization. The drama was literally on the boxart, it wasn't even surprising. And again, there is something like "too much drama".

Sorry for my English I hope you understand what I'm talking about.
Don't worry about it, it's fine. :)
 

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On the subject of Roxas the reality is KH2 never showed the real Roxas save for a few scene that don't give much insight into he is. He gets his memories back and whatever cool maturity he had goes right out the window as he throws the equivalent of a child's temper tantrum destroying a computer for no reason other than anger. Shortly after that he has a sad goodbye with Axel that just shows he values their friendship. Then he responds to seeing DiZ by trying to beat him up no questions asked even though he knows literally nothing about this man. Finally we see him just look at Sora sadly and accept going into him as if he has nothing to live for. After that we never see or hear from Roxas until the end of the game and when we do all we get is...."guy really angry at Sora who comes to view Sora is not a total wash out" and "guy who still has questions he is leaving to Sora to answer".

Anything before getting his memories back wasn't Roxas. The week we spent getting to know Roxas was never the real Roxas the game flat out said that itself "he will need a new personality". Days's Roxas lines up perfectly with the Roxas we see in those few scenes by the end of the game. It doesn't however quite mesh with the Roxas we spend most of KH2 playing as, there is some overlap but there is some dissonance. Which is again intentional when the game once more spelled out that this Roxas who hadn't gotten back his memories was just running off the personality that was programmed into him. It does raise the question though on our formation of identity on what parts are inherent to us and what parts are a result of upbringing.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not calling this character development or anything just that the purpose of Roxas's story in KH2 was an intentional obfuscation of Roxas as a whole, because Nomura had already planned to address Roxas's story after KH2. Which from a writing standpoint makes sense Roxas is important but he's not THAT important to KH2 and KH2 had to prioritize Sora, Riku, and Kairi's story first and foremost before anything else. But you know the end result is that people build up in their idea what Roxas was like basing it off a fake personality + those few glimpses of the real Roxas and all these ideas on who Roxas was builds up expectations just waiting to fall apart.

Which brings me back to Xion, in a series that had fans that tried to fill all the holes in with many kinds of fanon what followed next was little more than something many writers have to deal with. That is that a writer will almost always have a vision different from the ones that fans come up with. The minute canon explanations and events are introduced in one fell swoop many people's ideas, hopes, visions, assumptions, etc.. they are all brutally crushed and replaced with this new reality. And if it's not a reality that lines up it very commonly will be met with anger and frustration I've seen this happen not only with Xion in KH but many MANY series. So in short both the vast love for Xion and the vast hate for Xion was predetermined the moment she was created to be put in this vortex.

I will say this idea that if Xion wasn't there the other members would of gotten focus is pure nonsense if anything we would have just gotten more Axel and Roxas talking about regular life or even more scenes of Roxas sitting alone. None of the others were getting development as they were either minor characters or their stories were already planned for later games, aka Xigbar and Xemnas. Xion's existence didn't bring the other characters down the reality is those other characters were never going to be brought up. Days showed exactly what Nomura wanted to do with the Organization members and which of them he thought were important. It's understandably frustrating though when you basically have your author saying "these guys aren't that important, don't have anything I find interesting or important enough to bother writing, I don't feel like even sharing their names right now, and they will be remaining as minor here as they were in KH2". Which is the real source of anger and Xion is just an easy scapegoat for this anger.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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I don't hate Xion as a character at all (quite the opposite actually), but I can definitely see where most people's gripes are coming from. Most people in this thread already addressed a majority of what I'm about to say, so I'll try to summarize as best I can.
From what I can tell, the issue isn't her character, it's how much she takes away from other characters. While this doesn't personally apply to me, it's true that a lot of people went into the game expecting much more character development for Roxas, and backstory to some extent the other organization members. But when they finally got the game, they were instead greeted by a new character who effectively stole most of the spotlight from the same characters they were looking forward to know (even Roxas suffered a bit from this). It also doesn't help that she wasn't even hinted to exist in any earlier material, AND was erased from everyone's memories at the end of the game (even if it was very heart wrenching).

Think about it this way. If you went somewhere looking forward to getting something, and not only did you not get what you came for, instead you get something else that you never asked for only for it to be revealed that what you did get was ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things anyway. Regardless of whether those people liked Xion or not leaving that game, they'll feel like they were swindled out of something they were really looking forward to. It's a real shame too, because had she been introduced in a way that didn't require SO much attention to be taken away from the other characters, I really don't think she would get so much hate.
 
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Nukara

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Muke,I think that the story will be more boring, it will be an absolutely primitive reason for leaving the organization. In many ways Xion contributed to the drama and the touch of the moments that are in all this game. If her drama were not much less. It would be very little or none at all. Well, if you think so, it was not so much from Xion that it was the hall of development of Axel and Roxas as characters and their friendship in particular. Despite the great emphasis on Xion, they were given a lot of time, at least for their friendship, they were accurately uncovered. People exaggerate greatly that Xion has stolen all screen time on herself. For KH2 it was usually difficult to say that they were friends, if you did not take into account the FM scene, then Roxas was pretty indifferent to Axel. If I go back to the topic, members of organization 13 (for example, Demyx) ,will rather give them a little more time on the screen. In terms of disclosure, Saix was more interesting and its connection with Axel.
 

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I want to add that if there were no Xion, 358/2 would not be just emotional. It can be coded in terms of informative and better days, but the story there just does not cause any emotion. Whereas in days there are moments that made me cry. The last time such was only in KH1 and BBS
 

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On the subject of Roxas's characterization, Hirokey did a great job of identifying where and why he differs between games. To add to that a bit: Roxas's character can be interpreted as the marriage of two key qualities-- naivety and idealism. His naivety is a product of his circumstances and it informs his behavior in both Days and KH2. His idealism is a deliberate echo of Sora's: it is in so many words the sum of his parts, from his brash, emotionally pronounced confrontational side to his fanciful and cautiously curious personality, and it manifests not just as a result of his circumstances but in the nature of his circumstances themselves. In Days, Roxas lives out an almost effortless, routine existence made up of ice cream and friendly banter; in KH2, he is literally walking about an artificially crafted Twilight Town designed as his ideal landscape-- but in both scenarios, Roxas is also a prisoner, trapped by forces larger than himself and unequipped with even rudimentary knowledge as to the reality of his situation. And we see, in both games, exactly what Roxas does when he gains access to reality and where his idealism contrasts with that of Sora: Roxas, by virtue of his naivety, assigns a nostalgic facade to friendship and uses routine, exclusive pleasures as a protective measure against the encroachment of the "outside" world. Sora, on the other hand, sees the bigger picture and undertakes his friendships and connections with others as a manner of actively accessing a larger vision of community: where Roxas sees a closed loop and is prone to mistrusting people who don't fit into his neat and tidy circle, Sora accepts people as they are (even the bad guys).

This is why we see Roxas, in Days, pushing back against Axel during the latter portion of the game: Axel broke the simple vision of friendship Roxas had been conditioning himself to cling to by withholding information; it's likewise why we see Roxas lash out so fiercely towards the end of his prologue in KH2 (Hirokey alluded to this), as he realizes his ideal has been irreparably shattered and can't bring himself to accept that-- even though he himself was complicit in both instances, asking questions he didn't really want answered. There's the scene in Days where he murmurs to himself on the clock tower after abandoning the Organization, "Where did I think I could go?" It's a tonal mirror of his resignation in KH2, when he realizes he can't escape the inevitable and that, indeed, his summer vacation is over. The stubbornness of his convictions and his unwillingness to relinquish himself to fate are central traits of Roxas as a character which carry from KH2 to Days and back again.

I think encountering Days with the understanding that it's actively investigating this dualistic, self-empowered/self-defeating element of Roxas puts things into perspective. It's not arbitrary: Days encourages these meta-readings of its characters (after all, everything about Roxas is dual in nature, whether he's being cast against Xion or Sora or literally fighting with two keys) and internal dynamics, but we can also understand Roxas in the narrative context, as someone whose spirit is molded in the midst of the duplicitous Organization and singularly manipulative entities like Xemnas, Xigbar and Saix. Of course he's an idealist: having nothing of reliable substance to measure his concepts of others against, we see him grasp at the only genuine connection he makes with Xion and Axel, and covet it, like when he suggests that everything should stay exactly the same forever (impossible but sweet) or when he encourages the two of them to run away with him (decidedly not a solution, also sweet). So it makes sense that in KH2, he would invoke the names of Hayner, Pence and Olette as a sort of talisman when his ideal comes under threat, and why, after that fails to fend off reality, he surrenders to Namine and asks her to outline how it all ends for him because "nothing else matters anymore." (Of course, DiZ has to foil that budding relationship because he's obsessed with playing both god and devil's advocate to the Organization's thesis, but then AtW is a whole other can of worms.)
 

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Muke,I think that the story will be more boring, it will be an absolutely primitive reason for leaving the organization. In many ways Xion contributed to the drama and the touch of the moments that are in all this game. If her drama were not much less. It would be very little or none at all. Well, if you think so, it was not so much from Xion that it was the hall of development of Axel and Roxas as characters and their friendship in particular. Despite the great emphasis on Xion, they were given a lot of time, at least for their friendship, they were accurately uncovered. People exaggerate greatly that Xion has stolen all screen time on herself. For KH2 it was usually difficult to say that they were friends, if you did not take into account the FM scene, then Roxas was pretty indifferent to Axel. If I go back to the topic, members of organization 13 (for example, Demyx) ,will rather give them a little more time on the screen. In terms of disclosure, Saix was more interesting and its connection with Axel.
Of course Xion contributes to all the moments. That's what happens when a game is made to revolve around you. It's hardly a merit of the character.
Same for Roxas, Axel and their friendship. It was made so that she plays a huge role (although, I don't think she was this great cause for development, if anything she was a big part in its breakup later in the game).
Roxas had amnesia, of course he was indifferent to Axel. But, aside from the fact that Axel's emotions and behaviour speak for themselves, at the end of their fight Roxas agrees on meeting him again "on the other side".

I would've personally left their KH II relationship like that, without adding the FM scene. I think that was trying too hard to get the message home, making their relationship really obvious for those who didn't bother to read the "subtlety" in the prologue.
THAT was good "show don't tell".

I want to add that if there were no Xion, 358/2 would not be just emotional. It can be coded in terms of informative and better days, but the story there just does not cause any emotion. Whereas in days there are moments that made me cry. The last time such was only in KH1 and BBS
It wouldn't be emotional the way it is now.
But making it emotional and also better in any narrative way it's totally doable.
 

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Roxas did not even cry when Axel was dying. And even this promise that he made Axel was pretty cold on my view. Actually it seems to me that they were perfect friends, but rather were some kind of fighting companions. Actually, Axel saw in Roxas a friend while the second more as a partner. This can be seen in the manga for KH2 flashbacks where we though little but shows the relationship of the two. In addition, in earlier versions Axel had to die in the prologue, before the main events of Kingdom hearts 2, perhaps it was Roxas who would have killed him. From that and the phrase "Only you have the next life" would then look even more ironic.
 

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I don't hate her. I think her creation (by Nomura and crew) was unnecessary and complicated the plot more than they needed to, but I digress. What's done is done. I just hope they resolve it all properly. If I could go back in time, I'd prefer if she weren't a thing though. But now that's she's here, she's alright.
 

Nukara

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DarkosOverlord,Roxas did not even cry when Axel was dying. And even this promise, which he did. In my opinion, Axel was rather cold. In fact, it seems to me that they were fine friends, but rather were some kind of fighting comrades. In fact, Axel saw in Roxas a friend, and the second - as a partner. This can be seen in the manga for flashbacks of KH2, where we, although a little, but see the relationship between them. In addition, in earlier versions Axel had to die in the prologue before the main events of the Kingdom of the Heart 2, perhaps it was Roxas who would have killed him. From this and the phrase "Only you have the next life" then it will look even more ironic.
 

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Of course Xion contributes to all the moments. That's what happens when a game is made to revolve around you. It's hardly a merit of the character.
This also wound up giving Xion all the agency. Roxas didn't grow past his "What does this mean goo goo gaa gaa? phase until the end of the game because Xion essentially took his character arc.
 

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I don't hate Xion she's an interesting character I thought. However, it's a character I don't think was really needed, but whatever floats Nomura's boat ya know. If I had one thing negative to say is how complicated of a character she is. I don't understand why strong memories of Kairi would cause her to be a girl, I don't understand why, when different characters look at her they see different faces (or no faces at all sheesh). I'd like to see more of her I feel the intricacies of her character call for that.
 
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