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Why do people keep saying KH2 is better than KH3?



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Ballad of Caius

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KINGDOM HEARTS II, or rather, KINGDOM HEARTS II Final Mix, is where the series as a whole hit a peak that would pretty much raise the bar as to what to expect from future games. After having replayed KHIIFM before KHIII, I have to say that they're both on equal grounds, and I don't mean that I place KH3 in the same pedestal as KH2FM because they're each their own thing. KH2 is pretty much a game that culminated a saga: the Sora reuniting with his friends saga; while KH3 closes the Xehanort saga, while in the mean time lays the grounds for the Foretellers saga. Other than that, they have the same gameplay, but are focused in two different ways:

* KH2FM's battles are built upon abilities that further deepen the combat, alongside Reaction Commands.

* While KH3's battles are built upon transforming the Keyblade and Situation Commands with party members.

I pretty much think both entries hit their own peaks. Like a twin set of Mt. Fujis.
 

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I am not sure if we can compare them that easily in that regard since they have a different story behind it and thus maybe needed a different pacing
We absolutely can compare them that easily, because KH3 had a story that needed to be told and told it in a downright terrible way. This person told KH2s story using KH3's structure and devices to highlight this issue.

Also lets not forget that Roxas tutorial in KH3 was the whole of Hercules world. Only after that Kh3 appeared as logo exactly how Kh2 only appeared after Roxas went back with Sora. So in that way imo they are quite similiar just instead of a new none disney world our tutorial world was the huge olympus.
I know you have your opinion and are entitled to it, but regardless I think it's false to claim that the Roxas prologue was unnecessary and that it carried the same story weight as Olympus did. You cannot compare something that sets up practically all of the story for KH2, not to mention attaches you to a character and gives him some serious development, to a world that literally does nothing for the story except for showing maleficent and Pete who ultimately did nothing the whole game. Yes Roxas' story is long but it is *necessary* to KH2.

Radiant garden was in the end nothing but short scenes until the big battle. Heck we just meet the crew again, say to them that we will help with their huge problem but as soon as a new portal opens Sora leaves them behind. Their problem is not solved till later in the game. In KH3 we simply did not need such visits because we got our information another way. We still got cutscenes on Riku and Mickey and sometimes the other important people. Twilight town unlike Radiant garden was also a save world so its not like anyone needed help there.
Does worldbuilding and character interaction mean nothing to you? Sora knew the Committee, he visited Hollow Bastion, he was reacquainted with them, we got some really nice scenes where their friendship is cemented
("We may never meet again, but we'll never forget each other." "Is that supposed to be Leon?") we were introduced to Hollow Bastions conflict, but we were also introduced to the Organisation and ultimately Sora knew what the bigger fish was, and when he left HB it wasn't exactly falling apart was it?
When Sora was *told* to leave HB by Mickey to advance the plot he decided not to. That's another nice moment, plus, the battle of 1000 Heartless has easily one of the most badass moments (see my avi).

The fact that we don't need such visits doesn't mean that they shouldn't be included. The Gummiphone was the worst thing to happen to KH3s plot and I will die on this hill. Instead of using all the characters and storylines at his disposal to give a bombastic finale Nomura decided to take the easy way out i.e streamline everything so that all we have is Disney worlds and the very very basic story beats that *everyone* knew would happen since DDD at least and BBS at most. That's not good storytelling.


I would not have anything against more worlds but for me at least they were not necessary. In the end would have more visits to twilight town for cutscenes really made the world better? When you have to land, loading screen, walk there, loading screen, see cutscene, loading screen, go back to map with a loading screen. All that for information that we simply got another way?
Like I said, just because something isn't necessary, doesn't mean it's not wanted. My post above showed what a completely "necessary" KH2 would look like, and honestly, it sucks ass. If that can't put KH3 into perspective for you then, eh. Whatever. You seemed easily satisfied by whatever the devs thought up and I didn't.

And yes, having a bigger twilight town act as a hub world would have made the game marginally better as they could probably do a lot more with it storywise. Hell, at this point, I'll take the mansion.

"All that for information that we simply got another way?"

Let's just make Kingdom Hearts wall-to-wall monologuing then shall we? If all we want is information. Gosh, it's like you didn't want to have all these opportunities like a data TT or the clock tower being somewhere explorable.
 

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I'm going to post something that I found from the KH subreddit that I think really encapsulates all that I feel was badly done about KH3's story:

"Yep. The game needed at least 2 more worlds, one at a halfway point and one to explore before the final battle

Imagine if in KH2 had the same lack of content.

The Roxas prologue is now a completely seperate game called KH1.8. The game begins with Sora waking up. Twilight Town is entirely cutscenes, up until Sora meets Yen Sid, who sends him off on another adventure.

After a brief 10 minute visit to Radiant Garden, you explore nothing but Disney worlds until the endgame. You can return to Radiant Garden again later, but only for a single Hundred Acre Woods mini-game. Occasionally Sora will get a phone call from someone telling him about plot developments that happened when he wasn't around. "The organization attacked Radiant Garden while you were singing with Ariel, but we dealt with it."

After Pride Lands, Sora gets a call that Kairi appeared in Twilight Town but was kidnapped, followed by a series of cutscenes. You finally regain control of Sora as they enter the digital Twilight Town. You fight some nobodies and enter TWTNW.

Then instead of exploring TWTNW, you begin right outside the castle, which is just several rooms of boss fights leading to the final boss.

That was KH3. Pls fix."
That guy's post perfectly summarizes KH3's issues.

The fact that we don't need such visits doesn't mean that they shouldn't be included. The Gummiphone was the worst thing to happen to KH3s plot and I will die on this hill. Instead of using all the characters and storylines at his disposal to give a bombastic finale Nomura decided to take the easy way out i.e streamline everything so that all we have is Disney worlds and the very very basic story beats that *everyone* knew would happen since DDD at least and BBS at most. That's not good storytelling.
The sad thing is it could have been good. Or at least less terrible. I've always wanted cellphones in KH so the story didn't slow down by forcing Sora into everything so he can interact with X character. Instead the majority of the time it's used in place of story rather than enhancing it.

The phone could have been used so Sora and Kairi were in constant contact with each other. We could have had optional conversations for everyone. We could have had something that wasn't what we were given.
 
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drew0512

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Let's just make Kingdom Hearts wall-to-wall monologuing then shall we? If all we want is information. Gosh, it's like you didn't want to have all these opportunities like a data TT or the clock tower being somewhere explorable.
Some people just aren't willing to lose sleep over the lack of exploration of data TT/clock tower and it would be nice to not make them feel like they're in the wrong for thinking so, especially if the best argument out there is "it should have been like this because I say so".
 

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Some people just aren't willing to lose sleep over the lack of exploration of data TT/clock tower and it would be nice to not make them feel like they're in the wrong for thinking so, especially if the best argument out there is "it should have been like this because I say so".
Except that's not what I said at all? It's almost as if you're deliberately taking my words out of context.

And the best argument for including a larger Twilight Town is present within KH3 itself; the lack of it really had an effect on whatever the potential Roxas storylines could have been, not to mention just pure player satisfaction. I'm more than willing to bet that out of all the fans even people happy with the game would feel the loss of Twilight Town in some way. I'd probably say a good 80% of the fans and I feel like I'm underestimating it here.
 

Ballad of Caius

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I just feel like this game was too big for its own good. Each world pretty much accounts for two from KH2. I pretty much think the additions via Final Mix DLC will be cutscenes.
 

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I was (and probably still am at some point) going to mention this in a longer post critiquing the Anti-Aqua subplot, but remember how they went out of their way to establish a connection and/or friendship between Aqua and Ansem the Wise (one of the few things blank points actually does), yet proceed to do nothing with it? In fact, the only thing it serves to do is give them an excuse to have SoD randomly appear (somehow) to attack them at the dark margin, consequently throwing Aqua into the abyss, only for him to stop caring (by his own admission) as soon as he loses his grip on AtW and works out that there's a traitor in the organization. Thus making his initial attack in the RoD amount to absolutely nothing other than compromising a newly formed relationship that's never explored, utilized, or brought up ever again, all while needlessly padding out Aqua's plight in the RoD and having AtW opperate entirely off-screen (which didn't do the game's pacing or execution any favors at all). Seriously, what a contrived plot-point and absolute waste of potential.
It's such a loss that two of the most individually compelling characters in the series were positioned together with such potential to move forward and grow through their shared dynamic and a meditation on the theme of loss that is pervasive to both of them, only to be thrust into such a staged, inept, meandering, and cold split from the narrative track they were on for the sole purpose of enabling Nomura to indulge his worst instincts and squander them both as utilitarian props and trailer/sequel fodder that goes nowhere and has nothing to say. It would have been so easy to approach Aqua's story so that she was the center of focus and the agent of her own outcome, in a way that would dovetail beautifully with AtW's driving pursuit of penance-- such that all Nomura had to do was let them walk that road together and let us experience the natural conclusion. It's embarrassing to think that, instead, what we actually got in summary was this sloppy narrative cul-de-sac of Aqua getting damsel'd so that Ansem the Wise could be not!captured so that a future plotline could be set up which infers a puzzle box girl getting damsel'd. You'd seriously be forgiven for thinking this was a Steven Moffat script. Wasted.


That's another thing I will never understand about how they wrote the human apprentices. You have all these original characters with interesting and well established powers, and hold so much storytelling potential, yet you throw it all away? Why show Lea retaining his nobody powers only to never utilize that interesting concept? Never saw the benefit of it. Much like Alexis said, Ienzo in particular could have had a FAR more active and substantial role in the plot, but they ultimately opted to make him another Vexen and take away much of what made him unique as a character. He's very much a workaholic and overachiever who does his best to go above and beyond in pretty much whatever he's doing just for the sake of reaping the potential benefits. It would've totally been in character for him to go into deep cover, repeatedly masquerading as different organization members across the story and gathering key information that could better help the heroes one-up Xehanort in the finale. Ending with this huge reveal that he was doing it to the knowledge of only a few people, excluding us of course (bonus points if we actually get to see him morph back to his original form as it happens). THAT, to me, is a genuinely satisfying and intriguing twist, and one I would find more interesting than the reveal of Vexen's ulterior motives. Even himself would've been better positioned at RG to stay working on restoring the fallen nobodies, since he was the only one that experience creating artificial one's in the past, and would have had plenty of resources to work more efficiently there. We could've gotten all the same story beats of him wishing to atone, and lamenting about how curiosity can often drive scientist too far (a very interesting and truthful statement that reflects people in the real world), but with the added bonus of the Ienzo feeding him back information regarding his findings of how one can exist and be recreated without yet having a heart (like Vexen does in the official). Another bonus to this would be if Siax is still the one to recruit Ienzo to his plan of undermining Xehanort, because if you recall, Zexion was the second in command of the original organization, and the major thing standing between Siax and moving up to the top of the ranks. It'd be very interesting to see or read about the two of them acknowledging how capable the other is in terms of organizing and carrying out plans of this nature, and thus agreeing to work with each other as equals instead of rivals while watching the other's back. This could’ve made saving Ansem the Wise (who could suddenly disappear from Ansem's grasp after some kind of key conversation) more mysterious and intriguing, as we wouldn't immediately recognize it as Ienzo using his powers, and then we could be treated to a flashback cutscene of them reuniting properly after the reveal. Something like this could've given both Ienzo AND Even satisfying and fitting roles to play while also giving credence to Zexion's title of “Cloaked Schemer.” Anyway, don't know why I went on this little tangent, but it's definitely a fun idea, and another sorely missed opportunity for sure.
The unfortunate conclusion is that they didn't really write the human apprentices, they slapped them over a prefab shonen/comic book endgame plot with all of the noncommittal anti-climax they could manage to fail to muster and then conferred upon them a leftover facade of intrinsic purpose scrounged from the thinnest afterthought of whatever constitutes a character arc in Nomura's mind now. They're the scraps of this saga's better trajectory, reconfigured into silently guffawing scarecrows and confused half-participants in a story that has everything to do with them but doesn't want to anymore. They amplify the impression of KH3's descent into total dramatic disharmony and its complete failure to cohere in its design as it drags along the immense burden of all its prior engagements while digging the deepest hole it can to try and get out from under them. Ultimately, it digs so deep it hollows itself out; KH3 embraces nothing of its identity and history, it just exploits the most marquee elements of whatever KH is popularly considered to be in order to make it into something that looks like it's intentional in its relation. So Zexion is Vexen is Demyx is probably the MoM or some other shockgasp roommate of Ventus because these characters don't exist to fulfill ideas, they exist to fill in gaps between ideas.

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The fact that we don't need such visits doesn't mean that they shouldn't be included. The Gummiphone was the worst thing to happen to KH3s plot and I will die on this hill. Instead of using all the characters and storylines at his disposal to give a bombastic finale Nomura decided to take the easy way out i.e streamline everything so that all we have is Disney worlds and the very very basic story beats that *everyone* knew would happen since DDD at least and BBS at most. That's not good storytelling.
Y E S
God damn the Gummiphone. I will die on that hill with you.

Also I love your signature too. Why does everyone in this thread have such nice signatures!
 
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SuperSaiyanSora

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I just feel like this game was too big for its own good. Each world pretty much accounts for two from KH2. I pretty much think the additions via Final Mix DLC will be cutscenes.
It really depends, and I think if it were mostly cutscenes, that honestly is plenty enough for them to flesh out certain scenario parts. They COULD expand Scala, they COULD expand Twilight Town, they COULD give us Radiant Garden... But I think most likely it's only going to be stuff relevant to the story that they've already established in the game with some playable scenarios added in possibly. It'd be incredible if they gave us these locations, but since there's no evidence to say that there's a likelihood of it, I'd rather temper my expectations and consider what we're more likely to get.

The benefit of this discussion though is, no matter which side of the fence you fall on, I like to think that people from Square are listening and taking notes. They clearly understand loud and clear how people felt about the lack of FF characters (even the developers weren't thrilled either, so I doubt this was even a surprise to most of them over there despite what's said), they understand perfectly clear how people felt KH3's difficulty is too easy, and there's absolutely ZERO doubt in my mind that they don't know how people feel about Kairi. So my hopes are that they take all of the feedback that they've collected and make the Final Mix DLC filled with enough stuff to give people what they want while also not undermining what they've already laid out.

Who knows, maybe they might toss a surprise into the Critical Mode DLC since they've been working on it so hard, or even give us a potential roadmap of DLC to expect kinda like what FFXV did. But I do think the team is listening and they do go to forums like this one to find out where they should take things next.
 

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Does worldbuilding and character interaction mean nothing to you? Sora knew the Committee, he visited Hollow Bastion, he was reacquainted with them, we got some really nice scenes where their friendship is cemented
That's another nice moment, plus, the battle of 1000 Heartless has easily one of the most badass moments (see my avi).

The fact that we don't need such visits doesn't mean that they shouldn't be included. The Gummiphone was the worst thing to happen to KH3s plot and I will die on this hill.

And yes, having a bigger twilight town act as a hub world would have made the game marginally better as they could probably do a lot more with it storywise. Hell, at this point, I'll take the mansion.

"All that for information that we simply got another way?"

Let's just make Kingdom Hearts wall-to-wall monologuing then shall we? If all we want is information. Gosh, it's like you didn't want to have all these opportunities like a data TT or the clock tower being somewhere explorable.
For you it was terrible, I for most of the time enjoyed the way it was told. No world was truly a filler, we got organisation members in each one and on top of that great interactions between disney characters and the enemies. And not every world was simply a retelling of the story with Sora in it which is also quite nice.

No Roxas himself was not uncessary but I also believe that the long tutorial could have been cutted or used better. There are days in this tutorials were nothing much happens at all. And a lot of the time we have just cutscenes with barely much to play. So for me most of it could have either been reduced or just completely told as a cutscenes without missing much. I was in the end really happy to finally controll Sora again and truly start the game and be out of that tutorial. Roxas might be important as a character to other characters but even without him Sora would have still tried to stop the organisation because its not for Roxas that he started to go after them.

I care about worldbuilding and character interactions but that does not change the fact that until the big battle of 1000 heartless the world was only used in small ways to get information. I for example would have found it better to visit radiant garden, then truly help them with their problems, maybe with the first boss too and then later come back to battle the many heartless. Less scenes maybe but at least those scenes had more behind it. Because I had a hard time believing that Sora after promising to help them just went of to another adventure...would just be like him leaving Mulan behind to maybe fight the boss all on her own. I just dont need to visit a place again and again just for some cutscenes if I can get these cutscenes in another way. That does not mean that I want no interaction at all..

The thing is, none of us even knows if they would have introduced more story in Twilight Town even if it was bigger. Maybe they would have still just be something to look at while the rest still happens elsewhere.

And lets not use hyerbole, just because we did not get certain interactions or have another way to get them (the phone). It does not suddenly mean that we should just take all of that out and make a monologue. Heck maybe next game they have more of that or maybe Nomura just simply likes that way. Of course you can dislike it, thats your right, but imo it does not make the way they used it as the wrong way.
 

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Because not only is the pacing the worst thing ever and most of the Disney worlds in KH3 are like the Disney movies with Sora and co. just standing there watching, but it's also missing a bunch of stuff that was in KH1 and KH2
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1. A Colosseum. You even go the the Hercules world again, it was a waste not to put it in even if it had nothing to do with the story. Heck they could have done something fun and made the prize a "black box" and had Pete and Maleficent as enemies at some point. Then the box can just have some synthesis item or whatever in it XD

2. Twilight Town is way too small, and you can't go to Radiant Garden out side of 1 tiny DLC room (not worth 30$). The Final world, Scala, and the Keyblade graveyard are just boring. I wanted to GO to Castle Oblivion and find Ven dang it. Not have Aqua deus ex the place back to normal in 2 seconds.

3. The Disney worlds are boring even for Disney worlds. At the very lest they could have given us proper enemies to fight or some other objective. Even the power of waking could have worked if the gave it some semi-physical form, like shards of stained glass or something that we had to find as we went through the worlds.

4. We didn't get to find Roxas in the digital Twilight Town either. Wouldn't that have been fun?

5. The main villains did nothing until the very end. Their motives were also super unclear. Or just boring. Why did Xehanort want he X-blade again? To destroy the world? To access Kingdom Hearts for power? Just cause? What would causing another key-blade war do for him exactly? It's fine if he just wanted to prove that darkness was better/stronger like KH1 Ansem, but have him say that.

6. From a game play stand point KH2 is way more fun and balanced, especially in Final Mix. The proper drive forms are far better than the lame form shifts we get randomly that you can barely see. Also attraction rides are gimmicky and stupid. Who ever looked at KH2 and said "You know what this needs? Obnoxious theme park rides as attacks." Most stuff about combat is random and it feels like you have little control over it. Let me select my Limit or Dive form when I want to, not when the game feels like giving it to me.

7. No one aside from Sora did much of anything. Would it have killed them to let Riku explore the Realm of darkness for a bit like Aqua did in 0.2? Or let us play as Kairi for an hour in Radiant Garden? Honestly the Twilight Town gang did more than most of the main characters.

8. Honestly the only thing KH3 did better was the visuals. They should just do a 1 for 1 remake of KH2FM in Unreal 4 XD I mean they can add some more stuff if they want but they are not allowed to take anything away. I want to explore all of Twilight Town and Radiant Garden it that beautiful Unreal 4 HD. It'll never happen, but I can dream. On the upside the secret movies and the stuff from the mobile game look interesting at least.
 
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