Why do people keep saying KH2 is better than KH3?

[Elysium]

I don’t have to think, I’ve been with this series from the beginning; fans were seriously (and rightfully) pissed about Dodge Roll’s absence from KH2, myself included, and complained about it. That’s how it ended up in the Final Mix. They also complained about KH2's lack of platforming and boring world design, and that's why the Cavern of Remembrance happened. I guess if the fanbase held their tongues and swept any mistake under a mat, no matter how minor, that would’ve never happened. Some fans like to be arbitrary about what they think is "right" to assume or expect out of this series and what isn’t out of a desire to feel better than, but I don't see what's worth patting yourself on the back about for being determined to accept anything regardless of its actual quality.

 

[Deleted member]

I don’t have to think, I’ve been with this series from the beginning

 

[Elysium]

Oh, yay, a GIF reply.

 

[allenleonardo]

Some fans like to be arbitrary about what they think is "right" to assume or expect out of this series and what isn’t out of a desire to feel better than, but I don't see what's worth patting yourself on the back about for being determined to accept anything regardless of its actual quality.

And here you are assuming something about those that just simply like the game. No I dont accept anything but as others have stated people have different tastes. I dont care about FF characters, I dont really care for x amount of hard boss fights. I really deeply enjoyed the gameplay and even though I do have gripes with the story, for me its not worse than any KH game before.

I understand that someone might dislike it. Be disappointed. But on the other hand you have also people that assume that just because something was once or twice in a KH game it means that it always has to be in the game otherwise its half baked, rushed and unfinished. And then you have the people that are saying that its a FACT that KH2 is better than Kh3. But that is just not true because this is subjective.

I have nothing against people writing down what they disliked, but there is a line where it just gets too much. There is one topic on here right now where the OP states that just because we dont have second visits KH3 is bad and half assed. And that is imo the problem of expectations. If they went around and stated in their advertisement that there would be multiple story lines in each world and not just one then of course that is a rightful negative opinion and should be pointed out because the expectation for it would be right. But just because it had been in some older games? That is just wishful thinking.

 

[drew0512]

you ever think about the fact that kh2 vanilla didn't even have dodge roll

All the time, especially because even 2FM forces you to play half of it without DR. What they were thinking remains still a mystery.

 

[Elysium]

And here you are assuming something about those that just simply like the game.

Because I was responding to the same old character attacks against people who were disappointed. Just because there are people who didn't respond well to the game doesn't make them inferior to you or mean that they had higher expectations than you or any other nonsense.

I have nothing against people writing down what they disliked, but there is a line where it just gets too much.

But you don’t get to decide where the line is or when someone is allowed to criticize something or what is an "unfair" criticism of a game. You don’t own this series any more than any other fan. Trying to control what people are going to say or how they’re going to feel is like trying to control the wind.

 

[NoWay]

I really love KH3. But there are two things which bother me.

1. Cutscenes in Disney worlds and saving opportunities
Sometimes the cutscenes in Disney worlds are way too long and imo do not contribute to the overall storytelling. In general I love the cutscenes in KH games but the Disney worlds cutscenes do annoy me sometimes.
Another problem: Some days ago, I finished Arendelle and wanted to dive directly into the Caribbean because it’s my favorite world.
But it was already very late in the night so I just wanted to see the introduction and save my game after 5-10 minutes of fighting heartless.
However, cutscene after cutscene, there wasn’t any save point because the game was leading me from one point to another until the first boss fight against the big dragon like heartless. It was very dragging. The commands were also horrible in this boss fight. I couldn’t control the heartless.

2. You can watch the important story cutscenes without any context
In January I wasn’t able to play KH3. But I also didn’t want anyone to spoil me, so I decided to watch the important story cutscenes + ending for myself on YouTube. And I liked everything about the story. Except for one thing. I didn’t have played KH3 at this moment. But I was able to understand all cutscenes without knowing what actually happened in this game. What i mean is, the story is missing some Plottwists or story development which wasn’t predictable for us. Nearly Everything was just how I expected it to be and wasn’t that surprising or shocking for me. As someone who played all the KH games, everyone would be able to understand the whole saving Aqua&Ventus and KG cutscenes without playing the rest of the game, because there weren’t any big revealing/developments in the overall story which would make it necessary to experience the rest of the story too.

However, I cannot deny that I still love the gameplay and the story. KH3 is still a solid 8,5/10 for me. I think that future DLCs can raise this to 10/10.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

Why is it better? (Kinda curious on that)

Because I think for the last few pages the discussion just kept going in circles, and this last round with Tartarus seems on an equal pace.

"I hate this about KH III"
"But I don't"
"Hey KH II had this one flaw"
"I know but it still doesn't change what I dislike about KH III"
"Okay but that's you"
"I know it's me"

I dunno, I'm not saying "stop discussing", that's what threads are for, but I feel like the main points have been outlined. Most of us agree KH II wasn't perfect either, most of you agree KH III wasn't perfect either, and we all now know what we hate/love about each of these games.
That's why I said posts ago that the entire premise of a KH II vs KH III was prone to going nowhere.
Absent going in and just speaking their heart about it reminded me that it was what I ultimately wanted to do in the first place, before going over each pixel in each game.
Not that it wasn't fruitful at all doing that, every discussion is a learning experience, but again I think it's getting stale.

But if you are truly that disappointed with the series and see such big flaws for such a long time, then maybe it is time to say goodbye to it. I mean a game is still just something that is made for enjoyment. If you dont enjoy it because of flaws that are there again and again then you are not forced to give it x amount of chances. I know that this might be harder for something that one is following for years but at the same time you seemingly already had problems with it for years too.

Oh but I did. Gave my official farewells more than a month ago, after reading that No Heart, a mystery that has endlessly intrigued me due to its ambiguous nature and the fact that multiple official sources keep repeating how "We don't know who's even behind that armor! Don't think it's like Armor of Eraqus, this is so different!" ended up being "Oh, Xehanort had two sets of armor lol."

I've stopped being a Kingdom Hearts fan since March 4th, and I thought about ending here as well, but in these last weeks I've had a fun time firing up some innocent jokes and last batches of discussion, so I thought of exhausting them while they last.
But yeah, I don't even think I'll buy the next KH game, at least not after viewing a lot of actual released game footage like I do with any other (emotionally) standard series and decide it's worth my time and money.
It wasn't even that hard to do so, surely it was sad, but it was for the better. I think the reason why I can still be around here and hopefully come off as less of a jerk is, ironically enough, because now I feel less emotionally invested in this or that topic and I don't feel like challenging anybody who thinks differently.

Maybe I'll eventually move away from Insider too, no doubt making a few souls happier, as soon as I figure out where would be the appropriate thread for one last farewell.

But anyway, I understand the intentions behind your words and I appreciate the advice.

I think people's expectations are what cause them to be so disappointed by KH III.

Expectations are nothing but emotions aimed towards a precise element, there will always be some. You yourself said you got what you expected out of KH III meaning you did have expectations and in your case they were fulfilled. In our they weren't.

This obviously begs the question: were our expectations far too high? I might be biased in saying "no", but I agree with Tartarus that we weren't those crazy-hyped fans asking for every single mechanic of every game, twenty transformations, 37 boss phases and so on.

We basically saw everything that the game had to offer in the last few trailers, so I really don't think they were advertising anything that we did not get.
People just assumed Final Fantasy characters would be in the game, people just assumed that Kairi would have a major role... the list goes on and on.

Kairi was absolutely advertised as this one character who was going to take a major stance and fight, with so much as an entire marketing ad dedicated to that. Needless to say, no one expected they would resort to making her the damsel again after all of that, especially those who knew the issues around the character.
In general, those of us who got burned by the game are looking back at the marketing campaign didn't expect Square to have such gall.

Because while in some cases it might've not been straight up lying, they did put on a show that seemed to promise far more than what it ultimately delivered.
I was among those who kept defending them after each trailer arguing that they were NOT spoiling the entire game. I did that because I believed it. And of course, by believing that also came the feeling that "if this is what they're showing us, imagine what else will be in the game!"

I even remember there was that notion (Idk if it was official or just a rumor) that no final world bosses were being showcased in trailers. Even if it was just a rumor, people seemed to fully believe in it, as many Insider threads from pre-release can confirm.
We... basically saw all final bosses except for Davy and Baymax, which we already knew were going to be bosses anyway.

I mean just thinking back at how many Graveyard and Scala (and Final World like, damn) cutscenes we were shown makes me in denial it even happened. Not to mention the whole Anti-Aqua segment: minus the actual dark ball, we saw its beginning, development and conclusion in trailers, and there was even an event where it was shown Sora fighting her.
And I dare anyone to go back and read Nomura's interview when she first appeared during E3 and not think that there was going to be more to it by the way he spoke.

We underestimated their... I guess greediness in wanting to show every little surprise the game had, which is something a title like KH III didn't even need to sell the way it did, just to keep us hooked a bit more, at the expense of our surprise and enjoyment with the actual game.
And I'm the first one to admit it's a "fool me twice shame on me" scenario, since they did the same thing with 2.8 at the time.

So to sum it up: my expectations were normal at the start, pessimistic even. I was prepared for KH III to be awful years ago.
Then I saw the trailers, read the inteviews, and the game was starting to look great... only to realize I basically watched 85% of the game through promotional material.
There are definitely people angry for the """wrong""" reasons and it's easy to mentally portray another person as their worst iteration of what we don't like (I don't say this to accuse you guys, it's a natural reaction that has nothing to do with goodwill), but I didn't go into KH III thinking it was going to be an unrealistically perfect game.

I don't like how Nomura handled the story, and that's me.
I don't like most gameplay decisions, that's also me.
The over-inflating marketing campaign... because I think it's apparent now that I disagree that the marketing for KH III was fine and honest... thaaaaat's them. And that is where my hype and expectations came from, so while I agree that part of my dissatisfactions with KH III come from my expectations, that's still their fault to me.

Maybe I'm different, but I love this series for the gameplay and the story. Its easy gameplay and insane story are all I need. Are there other things that I want (like more Disney/harder bosses/more side quests/showing other characters do stuff etc)? Yes. But I got what I was expecting and some more. I got a brand new journey with the squad (Sora/Donald/Goofy) and that's pretty much all I needed. So I can be critical on all the games as a player, but as a fan I adore each game. Like I can openly admit that it was pretty much agony playing KH 358/2 Days because the gameplay was just so annoying to me, but the story (and Roxas) salvaged it for me and hence I always say I love Days. I will never, ever PLAY it again, but I watch those cutscenes all the time.

You're certainly not different, I did the same for many games. I was ready to defend BbS, DDD, Ux, Back Cover, and said many things. Some of those things I still believe in... some I don't.
I just can't do the same for KH III.

 

[allenleonardo]

Because I was responding to the same old character attacks against people who were disappointed. Just because there are people who didn't respond well to the game doesn't make them inferior to you or mean that they had higher expectations than you or any other nonsense.

But you don’t get to decide where the line is or when someone is allowed to criticize something or what is an "unfair" criticism of a game. You don’t own this series any more than any other fan. Trying to control what people are going to say or how they’re going to feel is like trying to control the wind.

But it also does not make it right to then do the same and assume stuff about those that simply like the game. Either by saying that those just accept anything no matter the quality, or that people will buy it even if devs made horrible decisions and all the other attacks in other threads. (And I am honestly not even sure if there is someone on this forum or this thread that made it look like those that like it are superior?)

The problem is that there are people that had way too high expectations. (And there are probably also people that shut down any kind of negative opinion too) And that its not the games fault.

Of course I cant decide what people are allowed to post but I am allowed to call people out of it when I believe its too much. And I do believe that some of those posts (not necessarily even on this site) are over the top. And if you post that opinion than you should be ready to have someone answer to it. So anyone can post their opinion and anyone can trash something, but that same person should be ready to receive some posts on that too. And no those answering those posts are not blind fanboys that would buy anything and dont know about quality. Exactly how those that just simply dislike it are inferior as a person..

Because I think for the last few pages the discussion just kept going in circles, and this last round with Tartarus seems on an equal pace.

I dunno, I'm not saying "stop discussing", that's what threads are for, but I feel like the main points have been outlined. Most of us agree KH II wasn't perfect either, most of you agree KH III wasn't perfect either, and we all now know what we hate/love about each of these games.
That's why I said posts ago that the entire premise of a KH II vs KH III was prone to going nowhere.
Absent going in and just speaking their heart about it reminded me that it was what I ultimately wanted to do in the first place, before going over each pixel in each game.
Not that it wasn't fruitful at all doing that, every discussion is a learning experience, but again I think it's getting stale.

Ah okay. Yeah discussions like that which are mostly just subjective will probably just go in circles but I think that is fine. If someone has nothing more to say they can simply just go out of the discussion and someone new might just want to post their opinion even if its the same as already existing ones.

I for example just posted my pixel view because I gave an opinion beforehand about a game that I had not played in years and I thought that this might not have been very fair. (Of course I still have not played through it) And I just like discussion way more where the person has some examples and explains their view in details. It just makes it much easier for me to follow and maybe understand the view and gives a good way to answer them.

 

[Face My Fears]

Because I think for the last few pages the discussion just kept going in circles, and this last round with Tartarus seems on an equal pace.

"I hate this about KH III"
"But I don't"
"Hey KH II had this one flaw"
"I know but it still doesn't change what I dislike about KH III"
"Okay but that's you"
"I know it's me"

I dunno, I'm not saying "stop discussing", that's what threads are for, but I feel like the main points have been outlined. Most of us agree KH II wasn't perfect either, most of you agree KH III wasn't perfect either, and we all now know what we hate/love about each of these games.
That's why I said posts ago that the entire premise of a KH II vs KH III was prone to going nowhere.
Absent going in and just speaking their heart about it reminded me that it was what I ultimately wanted to do in the first place, before going over each pixel in each game.
Not that it wasn't fruitful at all doing that, every discussion is a learning experience, but again I think it's getting stale.



Oh but I did. Gave my official farewells more than a month ago, after reading that No Heart, a mystery that has endlessly intrigued me due to its ambiguous nature and the fact that multiple official sources keep repeating how "We don't know who's even behind that armor! Don't think it's like Armor of Eraqus, this is so different!" ended up being "Oh, Xehanort had two sets of armor lol."

I've stopped being a Kingdom Hearts fan since March 4th, and I thought about ending here as well, but in these last weeks I've had a fun time firing up some innocent jokes and last batches of discussion, so I thought of exhausting them while they last.
But yeah, I don't even think I'll buy the next KH game, at least not after viewing a lot of actual released game footage like I do with any other (emotionally) standard series and decide it's worth my time and money.
It wasn't even that hard to do so, surely it was sad, but it was for the better. I think the reason why I can still be around here and hopefully come off as less of a jerk is, ironically enough, because now I feel less emotionally invested in this or that topic and I don't feel like challenging anybody who thinks differently.

Maybe I'll eventually move away from Insider too, no doubt making a few souls happier, as soon as I figure out where would be the appropriate thread for one last farewell.

But anyway, I understand the intentions behind your words and I appreciate the advice.



Expectations are nothing but emotions aimed towards a precise element, there will always be some. You yourself said you got what you expected out of KH III meaning you did have expectations and in your case they were fulfilled. In our they weren't.

This obviously begs the question: were our expectations far too high? I might be biased in saying "no", but I agree with Tartarus that we weren't those crazy-hyped fans asking for every single mechanic of every game, twenty transformations, 37 boss phases and so on.



Kairi was absolutely advertised as this one character who was going to take a major stance and fight, with so much as an entire marketing ad dedicated to that. Needless to say, no one expected they would resort to making her the damsel again after all of that, especially those who knew the issues around the character.
In general, those of us who got burned by the game are looking back at the marketing campaign didn't expect Square to have such gall.

Because while in some cases it might've not been straight up lying, they did put on a show that seemed to promise far more than what it ultimately delivered.
I was among those who kept defending them after each trailer arguing that they were NOT spoiling the entire game. I did that because I believed it. And of course, by believing that also came the feeling that "if this is what they're showing us, imagine what else will be in the game!"

I even remember there was that notion (Idk if it was official or just a rumor) that no final world bosses were being showcased in trailers. Even if it was just a rumor, people seemed to fully believe in it, as many Insider threads from pre-release can confirm.
We... basically saw all final bosses except for Davy and Baymax, which we already knew were going to be bosses anyway.

I mean just thinking back at how many Graveyard and Scala (and Final World like, damn) cutscenes we were shown makes me in denial it even happened. Not to mention the whole Anti-Aqua segment: minus the actual dark ball, we saw its beginning, development and conclusion in trailers, and there was even an event where it was shown Sora fighting her.
And I dare anyone to go back and read Nomura's interview when she first appeared during E3 and not think that there was going to be more to it by the way he spoke.

We underestimated their... I guess greediness in wanting to show every little surprise the game had, which is something a title like KH III didn't even need to sell the way it did, just to keep us hooked a bit more, at the expense of our surprise and enjoyment with the actual game.
And I'm the first one to admit it's a "fool me twice shame on me" scenario, since they did the same thing with 2.8 at the time.

So to sum it up: my expectations were normal at the start, pessimistic even. I was prepared for KH III to be awful years ago.
Then I saw the trailers, read the inteviews, and the game was starting to look great... only to realize I basically watched 85% of the game through promotional material.
There are definitely people angry for the """wrong""" reasons and it's easy to mentally portray another person as their worst iteration of what we don't like (I don't say this to accuse you guys, it's a natural reaction that has nothing to do with goodwill), but I didn't go into KH III thinking it was going to be an unrealistically perfect game.

I don't like how Nomura handled the story, and that's me.
I don't like most gameplay decisions, that's also me.
The over-inflating marketing campaign... because I think it's apparent now that I disagree that the marketing for KH III was fine and honest... thaaaaat's them. And that is where my hype and expectations came from, so while I agree that part of my dissatisfactions with KH III come from my expectations, that's still their fault to me.



You're certainly not different, I did the same for many games. I was ready to defend BbS, DDD, Ux, Back Cover, and said many things. Some of those things I still believe in... some I don't.
I just can't do the same for KH III.

I think your experience leading up to KH3 may have been different from mine. I stopped watching trailers after the last world reveal (I believe that's the Pirates one). The only major thing that was spoiled for me was the Aqua section which I am dumbfounded why they would advertise that at all. Maybe Roxas' return, but that was so fast that it didn't spoil anything except that he was back in some form. I watched all the trailers (after I beat the game) and I do agree that they somewhat built up certain expectations - one of which being that they would NOT be showing the entire game in trailers, so naturally you would be expecting more content. I feel like if they cut back the trailers and content to just gameplay in Disney worlds and some story cutscenes (none in Keyblade Graveyard or Dark World), then the reaction to KH3 may have been better.

 

[Elysium]

But it also does not make it right to then do the same and assume stuff about those that simply like the game.

I wasn't the one who turned the discussion into what's wrong with fans, I responded to it. The criticism of fans with negative reactions to KH3 has been recurrent since release day. It usually devolves into what those fans must've done wrong, because reactions can't be genuine or deserved if they aren't positive. FTR, I love KH3. Radiant Garden is the only thing I'd say the game is really lacking, but the attempts to deflect any criticism of the series never stopped annoying me because it was the same in the past when I criticized most of the side games or KH2. That's why I don't go along with the attempts to stifle criticism of KH3 even when I'm on the positive side of a debate for a change with both it and 3D, because I know how it is to be talked down to in that way.

The problem is that there are people that had way too high expectations.

This is a problem to you, but to me that's only an exaggeration to devalue opinions you don't agree with.

Because I think for the last few pages the discussion just kept going in circles, and this last round with Tartarus seems on an equal pace.

"I hate this about KH III"
"But I don't"
"Hey KH II had this one flaw"
"I know but it still doesn't change what I dislike about KH III"
"Okay but that's you"
"I know it's me"

I dunno, I'm not saying "stop discussing", that's what threads are for, but I feel like the main points have been outlined. Most of us agree KH II wasn't perfect either, most of you agree KH III wasn't perfect either, and we all now know what we hate/love about each of these games.
That's why I said posts ago that the entire premise of a KH II vs KH III was prone to going nowhere.
Absent going in and just speaking their heart about it reminded me that it was what I ultimately wanted to do in the first place, before going over each pixel in each game.
Not that it wasn't fruitful at all doing that, every discussion is a learning experience, but again I think it's getting stale.

lol, it's true that these kinds of discussions often circle and go nowhere. Sorry I contribute to that.

 

[Face My Fears]

I definitely think that fans should voice their concerns about the game. But when people just say "KH3 was shit!", "KH3 was a huge disappointment!", "Where the fuck is Final Fantasy!?" and other useless comments like that, it doesn't really contribute. How are statements like that supposed to help the developers know what is actually WRONG with the game if all they see are people bashing it and not going further. Some people go in-depth on what's wrong and that's fine, but when you just trash the game clearly out of spite/anger it gets kind of hard to distinguish valuable/tangible critique that can help with DLC improvements.

 

[allenleonardo]

This is a problem to you, but to me that's only an exaggeration to devalue opinions you don't agree with.

So if someone goes around saying that Kh3 was for example a bad game because they believed that all the important characters are playable which then did not happen, they are right with that and did not just have too high or unreasonable expectations?

I mean stuff like hype trains do exists and in some cases can crash quite badly for some people because they went with some of the announced stuff and imagined more and more on top of that. Something that the game could have never given them. It would be bad to say that those simply dont exists but it also would be bad to say that all players that are disappointed did this to themselves.

 

[Raz]

(Is 'Quick Run' really that different from Dodge Roll?)

 

[2 quid is good]

I'm going to post something that I found from the KH subreddit that I think really encapsulates all that I feel was badly done about KH3's story:

"Yep. The game needed at least 2 more worlds, one at a halfway point and one to explore before the final battle

Imagine if in KH2 had the same lack of content.

The Roxas prologue is now a completely seperate game called KH1.8. The game begins with Sora waking up. Twilight Town is entirely cutscenes, up until Sora meets Yen Sid, who sends him off on another adventure.

After a brief 10 minute visit to Radiant Garden, you explore nothing but Disney worlds until the endgame. You can return to Radiant Garden again later, but only for a single Hundred Acre Woods mini-game. Occasionally Sora will get a phone call from someone telling him about plot developments that happened when he wasn't around. "The organization attacked Radiant Garden while you were singing with Ariel, but we dealt with it."

After Pride Lands, Sora gets a call that Kairi appeared in Twilight Town but was kidnapped, followed by a series of cutscenes. You finally regain control of Sora as they enter the digital Twilight Town. You fight some nobodies and enter TWTNW.

Then instead of exploring TWTNW, you begin right outside the castle, which is just several rooms of boss fights leading to the final boss.

That was KH3. Pls fix."

 

[DarkosOverlord]

For the sake of truth I'd argue "exploring" TWTNW didn't add all that much (unless we're also removing the Roxas cutscenes), but it works as a general idea of what I deem was done even worse than standard quality in KH III.

 

[alexis.anagram]

I think your experience leading up to KH3 may have been different from mine. I stopped watching trailers after the last world reveal (I believe that's the Pirates one). The only major thing that was spoiled for me was the Aqua section which I am dumbfounded why they would advertise that at all. Maybe Roxas' return, but that was so fast that it didn't spoil anything except that he was back in some form. I watched all the trailers (after I beat the game) and I do agree that they somewhat built up certain expectations - one of which being that they would NOT be showing the entire game in trailers, so naturally you would be expecting more content. I feel like if they cut back the trailers and content to just gameplay in Disney worlds and some story cutscenes (none in Keyblade Graveyard or Dark World), then the reaction to KH3 may have been better.

I don't follow that contriving ways to conceal the most anticipated (hence, most disappointing) elements of the game would have turned the reception of it one way or the other. That likely would have just led people to-- rightly-- conclude that the game was too anemic on story to justify a regular and revealing marketing output; it's not as though it would have helped the game feel more substantive, because the actual content that is there still would have been regarded as thin and misguided and anticlimactic. The few dramatic turns that weren't altogether forecast by trailers (Kairi's death, Sora's whatevering) have been among the least well regarded developments within the game, so it doesn't stand to reason that people are more given to appreciate that which they don't see coming. In the case of this game, holding out on everything related to such a stringent non-ending would have only incensed people during the marketing and then compounded our incredulity after the fact.

I definitely think that fans should voice their concerns about the game. But when people just say "KH3 was shit!", "KH3 was a huge disappointment!", "Where the fuck is Final Fantasy!?" and other useless comments like that, it doesn't really contribute. How are statements like that supposed to help the developers know what is actually WRONG with the game if all they see are people bashing it and not going further. Some people go in-depth on what's wrong and that's fine, but when you just trash the game clearly out of spite/anger it gets kind of hard to distinguish valuable/tangible critique that can help with DLC improvements.

For that matter, there's nothing especially valuable about proclaiming one's love for and enjoyment of KH3 in the short form: mindless praise is likewise rendered effectively "useless" by this logic, as it's not a constructive contribution, and has the arguably "harmful," net negative impact of giving license to creators like Nomura to continue proliferating subpar, even regressive, models of storytelling because it lends the perception that people will eat it up no matter its shortcomings. I place a high value on dialogue and discourse and I think it's important for people to be willing to engage and process beyond imageboard shorthand and the limited-character Twitter feed, but it's disingenuous to apply the demand in only one direction, and if a portion of the audience sees fit to heap commendations upon a work through a modern language of sappy .gifs and SARDONICALLY CAPITALIZED HYPERBOLE ABOUT FEELINGS, it would seem equally justifiable that another portion might express their negative reaction to the same material in similar form...reactionary though it maybe, at times.

The other problem with this train of thought is the embedded presumption that the game (or its various essential elements) can be corrected and improved upon, and the implied assertion that only arguments which target that objective hold merit. While it's possible that some individual points of contention could be addressed via DLC, there is a strong and increasingly unifying consensus that the game is mismanaged and flawed in its entirety, such that the only feasible corrective measure would be to reconceptualize and reconfigure it as a whole or in such significant portions that applying this perspective with an eye towards reparation would be disavowed as even more extreme and unrealistic than such critical conjecture is already. But just because its aim doesn't align with yours doesn't mean the argument lacks any value; in the first place, it may be correct on the face of it, which requires the refutation of a counter to disprove, which has the beneficial outcome of expanding and/or deepening the angles of approach through which people discuss the game and therefore conveys the potential to improve the overall dialogue surrounding it. That assumption inherently necessitates the further consideration that the opinions and expressions of the community are, in and of themselves, as valuable as the game itself: that is, attempts to orient community discourse around the needs and interests of the game's authors, thus restricting the critical conversation to those narrow opportunities to capitalize upon a potentially fixable feature, misses the point-- because the needs and interests of the audience have their own inherent weight, reciprocal to the creative output of any individual talent or company, and one of the core pursuits of collective reflection on any artistic work is to communicate what those were, and are. The essential value of any artwork is in its short and long-term impact and in its reception outside of the vacuum in which it was created, where society begins. So, the conversation which this community chooses to have is the conversation which matters (to this community); it's your prerogative to pursue whatever lead you find to be most fulfilling and find out if it catches, but asserting that the opinions of others are "useless" because they don't do your job for you is just lazy.

On an unrelated note, I'm glad to see that scene with Namine and Xion in your signature. I had intended to claim it for mine when the spoiler ban lifted as it's one of the few moments I genuinely appreciate from KH3, but it's good to know that there's someone around to rep my girls when I finally descend to hermitage in the Realm of Darkness where I have been assured a better haircut and glow-in-the-dark eyes.

Occasionally Sora will get a phone call from someone telling him about plot developments that happened when he wasn't around. "The organization attacked Radiant Garden while you were singing with Ariel, but we dealt with it."

This part in particular is just so on point in how it summarizes what makes KH3 such a failure in evincing any sense that we were supposed to be invested in what was happening; things that don't happen to, or at least in direction relation to, the main actors may as well not happen. This is worldbuilding 101. The only reasons cell phones should exist in a narrative are to break or lose signal: so of course Nomura has Jiminy hand them out to the entire ensemble so we can just ~imagine~ all the interactions they could have used to build character and rapport between them. "You all know each other so...now you all know each other!" Job done.

It's a funny thing that Ienzo doesn't actually investigate Sora's condition or the criteria for resurrecting any of the hearts inside of him as their own people since, ostensibly, this is his sole contribution to the story. Instead, he routinely checks in to report his theories, findings and conclusions, which presents the illusion that he is a protagonist actively involved in ongoing events when, really, he doesn't serve a purpose at all: Riku proposes the Replica program as a convenient way of bringing people back with zero weight given to it in the context of the broader drama and what's at stake (I think Sora's response is literally something like, "Uh, cool, that's great") while Vexen and Demyx are the ones who enable the plan to succeed. It's all well and good that Ienzo apologizes to Ansem the Wise for being a bad boy, but given we know virtually nothing about their relationship aside from speculation drawn from better games that did the job of actually depicting bits and pieces of it, that's a rather weak rationale for tethering him to that webcam when he would be better positioned using his powers of illusion (he can appear as literally anyone in the series and Nomura DOESN'T make a twist out of this?!) to sniff out the Organization's weak spots.

Speaking of Ansem the Wise, that was another thing that KH2 did better. Remember when he was part of the plot of the game he was in and not a game that's going to come out in 10 years if fans are lucky. The good old days.

 

[allenleonardo]

I'm going to post something that I found from the KH subreddit that I think really encapsulates all that I feel was badly done about KH3's story:

"Yep. The game needed at least 2 more worlds, one at a halfway point and one to explore before the final battle

Imagine if in KH2 had the same lack of content.

The Roxas prologue is now a completely seperate game called KH1.8. The game begins with Sora waking up. Twilight Town is entirely cutscenes, up until Sora meets Yen Sid, who sends him off on another adventure.

After a brief 10 minute visit to Radiant Garden, you explore nothing but Disney worlds until the endgame. You can return to Radiant Garden again later, but only for a single Hundred Acre Woods mini-game. Occasionally Sora will get a phone call from someone telling him about plot developments that happened when he wasn't around. "The organization attacked Radiant Garden while you were singing with Ariel, but we dealt with it."

I am not sure if we can compare them that easily in that regard since they have a different story behind it and thus maybe needed a different pacing.

Honestly Roxas prologue could have (imo) been cut and Kh2 would not have been worse. (And there had been quite a few complaints about this tutorial when the game came out because it was long and for some people quite boring)

Also lets not forget that Roxas tutorial in KH3 was the whole of Hercules world. Only after that Kh3 appeared as logo exactly how Kh2 only appeared after Roxas went back with Sora. So in that way imo they are quite similiar just instead of a new none disney world our tutorial world was the huge olympus.

Radiant garden was in the end nothing but short scenes until the big battle. Heck we just meet the crew again, say to them that we will help with their huge problem but as soon as a new portal opens Sora leaves them behind. Their problem is not solved till later in the game. In KH3 we simply did not need such visits because we got our information another way. We still got cutscenes on Riku and Mickey and sometimes the other important people. Twilight town unlike Radiant garden was also a save world so its not like anyone needed help there.

I would not have anything against more worlds but for me at least they were not necessary. In the end would have more visits to twilight town for cutscenes really made the world better? When you have to land, loading screen, walk there, loading screen, see cutscene, loading screen, go back to map with a loading screen. All that for information that we simply got another way?

 

[Twilight Lumiair]

Speaking of Ansem the Wise, that was another thing that KH2 did better. Remember when he was part of the plot of the game he was in and not a game that's going to come out in 10 years if fans are lucky. The good old days.

I was (and probably still am at some point) going to mention this in a longer post critiquing the Anti-Aqua subplot, but remember how they went out of their way to establish a connection and/or friendship between Aqua and Ansem the Wise (one of the few things blank points actually does), yet proceed to do nothing with it? In fact, the only thing it serves to do is give them an excuse to have SoD randomly appear (somehow) to attack them at the dark margin, consequently throwing Aqua into the abyss, only for him to stop caring (by his own admission) as soon as he loses his grip on AtW and works out that there's a traitor in the organization. Thus making his initial attack in the RoD amount to absolutely nothing other than compromising a newly formed relationship that's never explored, utilized, or brought up ever again, all while needlessly padding out Aqua's plight in the RoD and having AtW opperate entirely off-screen (which didn't do the game's pacing or execution any favors at all). Seriously, what a contrived plot-point and absolute waste of potential.


edit:

It's all well and good that Ienzo apologizes to Ansem the Wise for being a bad boy, but given we know virtually nothing about their relationship aside from speculation drawn from better games that did the job of actually depicting bits and pieces of it, that's a rather weak rationale for tethering him to that webcam when he would be better positioned using his powers of illusion (he can appear as literally anyone in the series and Nomura DOESN'T make a twist out of this?!) to sniff out the Organization's weak spots.

That's another thing I will never understand about how they wrote the human apprentices. You have all these original characters with interesting and well established powers, and hold so much storytelling potential, yet you throw it all away? Why show Lea retaining his nobody powers only to never utilize that interesting concept? Never saw the benefit of it. Much like Alexis said, Ienzo in particular could have had a FAR more active and substantial role in the plot, but they ultimately opted to make him another Vexen and take away much of what made him unique as a character. He's very much a workaholic and overachiever who does his best to go above and beyond in pretty much whatever he's doing just for the sake of reaping the potential benefits. It would've totally been in character for him to go into deep cover, repeatedly masquerading as different organization members across the story and gathering key information that could better help the heroes one-up Xehanort in the finale. Ending with this huge reveal that he was doing it to the knowledge of only a few people, excluding us of course (bonus points if we actually get to see him morph back to his original form as it happens). THAT, to me, is a genuinely satisfying and intriguing twist, and one I would find more interesting than the reveal of Vexen's ulterior motives. Even himself would've been better positioned at RG to stay working on restoring the fallen nobodies, since he was the only one that experience creating artificial one's in the past, and would have had plenty of resources to work more efficiently there. We could've gotten all the same story beats of him wishing to atone, and lamenting about how curiosity can often drive scientist too far (a very interesting and truthful statement that reflects people in the real world), but with the added bonus of the Ienzo feeding him back information regarding his findings of how one can exist and be recreated without yet having a heart (like Vexen does in the official). Another bonus to this would be if Siax is still the one to recruit Ienzo to his plan of undermining Xehanort, because if you recall, Zexion was the second in command of the original organization, and the major thing standing between Siax and moving up to the top of the ranks. It'd be very interesting to see or read about the two of them acknowledging how capable the other is in terms of organizing and carrying out plans of this nature, and thus agreeing to work with each other as equals instead of rivals while watching the other's back. This could’ve made saving Ansem the Wise (who could suddenly disappear from Ansem's grasp after some kind of key conversation) more mysterious and intriguing, as we wouldn't immediately recognize it as Ienzo using his powers, and then we could be treated to a flashback cutscene of them reuniting properly after the reveal. Something like this could've given both Ienzo AND Even satisfying and fitting roles to play while also giving credence to Zexion's title of “Cloaked Schemer.” Anyway, don't know why I went on this little tangent, but it's definitely a fun idea, and another sorely missed opportunity for sure.

P.s.- Glad to see you back on the forum! I've missed your well structured and informative opinions so much. ^^

 

[VoidGear.]

The absence of dodge roll in vanilla KH2 never bothered me too much, primarily because level 1 or even just critical difficulty (where it's quite crucial in some fights) wasn't an option anyway, and guard/reflect as well as quick run/aerial dodge did the job well enough for the few challenges the game held.

Either way, in my personal opinion KH2 is still the best game in the series. Its story wasn't mindblowingly executed, but then again most installments' stories weren't, so I'm mostly judging by gameplay.
Some major points where KH3 loses against KH2 big time (and yes, of course this is also still very much subjective):
- boss design (when I encountered the titans in Olympus, I almost cried because I feared all bosses would be that bad. Rinse and repeat in KoC. Not to mention PotC. God. I want to fight, not follow an enemy around just so they leave that spot in that second. And the ship fight plleaase no it was so bad.)
- pacing (yes, KH has almost always had this problem of forcing everything into the last third of the game, but in KH3 it was...a whole new level)
- balancing (chip damage on level 1 without any clever ways to get around it? ew)