Why do people keep saying KH2 is better than KH3?

[SuperSaiyanSora]

Regarding the Power of Waking and the Disney worlds - you're right on the money! Sora DOES have the Power of Waking, he had it all along like Ven said. I know it wasn't explained well at all - and this may just be my interpretation - but the Disney worlds helped him realize he had it all along. It would have been pretty cheesy and poor writing to have him deliver a monologue of exposition stating exactly how they helped him and I liked that Nomura left it up to our imagination/perception on how he regained it. The way I saw it was that his heart was trying to help him regain the Power of Waking, so it took him to the worlds that would do so - that's why after he heard about "may your heart be your guiding key" only then was he able to open the gateway to Olympus. It then takes him to Twilight Town to reawaken another part of his heart (Roxas), then he goes on to the other worlds and learns lessons from them. Sure, it was the same "Sunday morning cartoon" lessons, but I feel that the way Sora processed them this time around was different - IE through a more mature lens - and were actually helpful to him in the final battle.

You've been killing it in the thread, but this part specifically is something I also agree with and wanted to touch on. The game has made it abundantly clear that Sora at the beginning of the game is nowhere near battle ready for Xehanort. People say that Olympus was a pointless visit, when it was probably THE most important place for Sora to go. At face value, we go because Sora, like Hercules, lost his strength but Hercules gained it back. So we go to ask the man himself how it's done, and he remembers at the end, but Sora decides to figure it out on his own. What does he do next? He's guided through the worlds, as you said! "May your Heart be your Guiding Key" was a thing in KH3 for a reason, and I absolutely agree -- his heart was guiding him in order for him to become stronger and regain the Power of Waking.

Every world had the same core theme, and that was "love". Whether that was the romantic love between two individuals, or it was the bond of two sisters, the connection between a boy and the robot his older brother made, the desire for toys to reunite with their owner, or even the protection of two friendly monsters to protect a little human girl and send her back home safely... It all played a part. What was Hercules saying about regaining his strength, again? He says something to the extent of, "All I know is that she was in trouble. Suddenly, I wanted to save her with all my heart, but... It's not like I could tell you how." And guess what Ven says in the Land of Departure, after Sora says he didn't have the Power of Waking yet? "You never lost it... It sleeps until someone needs it." Up until that very moment, Sora wasn't backed into a corner where it was do or die like Hercules was back in KH2 and had to act.

Sora found out that Mickey and Riku were in trouble in the Realm of Darkness, and what happened? Sora let his heart be the guide, and it led him to Destiny Islands. They get there, they find the Master's Defender, and it guides Sora again. Had it not been for those two situations occurring AND Sora rescuing Mickey, Riku and Aqua, Ven wouldn't have been able to wake up. Sora's heart was strong enough and ready enough by that point. It was the perfect time for him to realize his power again, because imagine just how badly it would've played out had Sora remembered three worlds in that he had the Power of Waking. Terranort alone took out Ven, Axel and almost Kairi with Sora had Donald and Goofy not stepped in.

It's like what has been said in the thread already, I think the pace is fine, because we have to remember that everyone's working on borrowed time. It's either they get the Guardians, or they start picking off the Princesses of Light. And they KNOW the Guardians aren't going to just sit back and let that happen, so that's why things happen relatively quickly. I think if they had expanded on a bit of the characters other than Sora a bit more and let them be playable, as well as even giving Scala a chance to be explored, the pacing complaints would disappear, but I feel like given the situation, they didn't have a whole lot of time to waste.

 

[Face My Fears]

You've been killing it in the thread, but this part specifically is something I also agree with and wanted to touch on. The game has made it abundantly clear that Sora at the beginning of the game is nowhere near battle ready for Xehanort. People say that Olympus was a pointless visit, when it was probably THE most important place for Sora to go. At face value, we go because Sora, like Hercules, lost his strength but Hercules gained it back. So we go to ask the man himself how it's done, and he remembers at the end, but Sora decides to figure it out on his own. What does he do next? He's guided through the worlds, as you said! "May your Heart be your Guiding Key" was a thing in KH3 for a reason, and I absolutely agree -- his heart was guiding him in order for him to become stronger and regain the Power of Waking.

Every world had the same core theme, and that was "love". Whether that was the romantic love between two individuals, or it was the bond of two sisters, the connection between a boy and the robot his older brother made, the desire for toys to reunite with their owner, or even the protection of two friendly monsters to protect a little human girl and send her back home safely... It all played a part. What was Hercules saying about regaining his strength, again? He says something to the extent of, "All I know is that she was in trouble. Suddenly, I wanted to save her with all my heart, but... It's not like I could tell you how." And guess what Ven says in the Land of Departure, after Sora says he didn't have the Power of Waking yet? "You never lost it... It sleeps until someone needs it." Up until that very moment, Sora wasn't backed into a corner where it was do or die like Hercules was back in KH2 and had to act.

Sora found out that Mickey and Riku were in trouble in the Realm of Darkness, and what happened? Sora let his heart be the guide, and it led him to Destiny Islands. They get there, they find the Master's Defender, and it guides Sora again. Had it not been for those two situations occurring AND Sora rescuing Mickey, Riku and Aqua, Ven wouldn't have been able to wake up. Sora's heart was strong enough and ready enough by that point. It was the perfect time for him to realize his power again, because imagine just how badly it would've played out had Sora remembered three worlds in that he had the Power of Waking. Terranort alone took out Ven, Axel and almost Kairi with Sora had Donald and Goofy not stepped in.

It's like what has been said in the thread already, I think the pace is fine, because we have to remember that everyone's working on borrowed time. It's either they get the Guardians, or they start picking off the Princesses of Light. And they KNOW the Guardians aren't going to just sit back and let that happen, so that's why things happen relatively quickly. I think if they had expanded on a bit of the characters other than Sora a bit more and let them be playable, as well as even giving Scala a chance to be explored, the pacing complaints would disappear, but I feel like given the situation, they didn't have a whole lot of time to waste.

Thanks! I am glad that you appreciated my posts in this thread! The discussion has actually made me feel way more reassured in my love of KH III, especially after watching/reading A LOT of negativity towards it.

To be fair, I think the pacing only suffered at the end because it went from 0 to 100 real fast. Also content wise, it was lacking more boss fights spread out during the journey in the Disney worlds and then got packed with back-to-back boss fights in the Keyblade Graveyard/Scala Ad Caelum.

I feel like they could have incorporated the urgency of Sora with Master Xehanort's plan to "exhaust" Sora. The Organization should have powered up the Disney villains to tire Sora out before the Keyblade Graveyard. They really could have played up Master Xehanort trying to cause Sora to make a mistake at the Keyblade Graveyard.

 

[SuperSaiyanSora]

Thanks! I am glad that you appreciated my posts in this thread! The discussion has actually made me feel way more reassured in my love of KH III, especially after watching/reading A LOT of negativity towards it.

To be fair, I think the pacing only suffered at the end because it went from 0 to 100 real fast. Also content wise, it was lacking more boss fights spread out during the journey in the Disney worlds and then got packed with back-to-back boss fights in the Keyblade Graveyard/Scala Ad Caelum.

I feel like they could have incorporated the urgency of Sora with Master Xehanort's plan to "exhaust" Sora. The Organization should have powered up the Disney villains to tire Sora out before the Keyblade Graveyard. They really could have played up Master Xehanort trying to cause Sora to make a mistake at the Keyblade Graveyard.

I personally love KH3 to death, so I understand lol. The whole "the game is rushed!" argument never made sense to me, because nothing about KH3 is unfinished where plot points are unexplained to the degree of you not understanding what's going on entirely. You fully get what the stakes are. Now is it perfect? No, and KH has always left us with questions. But to say it's a rushed and incomplete game... To me, is craziness. KH3 is a full game from front to back. They could leave it as is today and it'd still accomplish what it was meant to do -- end the Dark Seeker saga. So to me, the game is amazing.

But yeah, I do think that there should've been more bosses to fight in order to give Sora more of a challenge. And probably not so many Demon Tides lol, I get that it's a great boss and I personally don't mind it... But more variety would be nice. Although I will definitely say that I felt that the Heartless boss designs in KH3 are super cool, especially the one in Kingdom of Corona and Monstropolis.

The whole events in the Keyblade Graveyard really did ramp up quite a bit, and I suppose they could've fleshed it out by another hour or two. Although I think that's probably where the DLC updates would go, most likely, if I had to guess. I believe Nomura said that he did have to make it clearer how Xion returned, even though you can put two and two together. Also, the whole "resolving plot points" is WAY too big of a missed opportunity and would be an excellent way for some story exposition. Roxas and Ven interacting, Terra and Riku, Axel trying to make sense of it all... Actually I think it's THAT part that people have issues with the most, besides Kairi's untimely demise and I think the lack of controlling the Lingering Will. I think what they could also do is add some more padding around the time period of SDG heading to Scala Ad Caelum with everyone still at the Keyblade Graveyard doing something here and there. Riku and Mickey would have to catch the gang up for starters as to what happened to Kairi.

As for tiring Sora out, I think that's a really interesting way to go about all of it. You could argue that Sora having to resolve every issue definitely tired him out, compared to just letting other characters shine. Though I think a bit of added lines could easily make that more clear, however, Sora seems to understand that Xehanort wants them to make a mistake when Ven was going to go with him. You could argue that actually by the time Sora even reached Xehanort, he was running on fumes and high emotion due to using the Power of Waking and losing Kairi.

 

[Face My Fears]

I personally love KH3 to death, so I understand lol. The whole "the game is rushed!" argument never made sense to me, because nothing about KH3 is unfinished where plot points are unexplained to the degree of you not understanding what's going on entirely. You fully get what the stakes are. Now is it perfect? No, and KH has always left us with questions. But to say it's a rushed and incomplete game... To me, is craziness. KH3 is a full game from front to back. They could leave it as is today and it'd still accomplish what it was meant to do -- end the Dark Seeker saga. So to me, the game is amazing.

But yeah, I do think that there should've been more bosses to fight in order to give Sora more of a challenge. And probably not so many Demon Tides lol, I get that it's a great boss and I personally don't mind it... But more variety would be nice. Although I will definitely say that I felt that the Heartless boss designs in KH3 are super cool, especially the one in Kingdom of Corona and Monstropolis.

The whole events in the Keyblade Graveyard really did ramp up quite a bit, and I suppose they could've fleshed it out by another hour or two. Although I think that's probably where the DLC updates would go, most likely, if I had to guess. I believe Nomura said that he did have to make it clearer how Xion returned, even though you can put two and two together. Also, the whole "resolving plot points" is WAY too big of a missed opportunity and would be an excellent way for some story exposition. Roxas and Ven interacting, Terra and Riku, Axel trying to make sense of it all... Actually I think it's THAT part that people have issues with the most, besides Kairi's untimely demise and I think the lack of controlling the Lingering Will. I think what they could also do is add some more padding around the time period of SDG heading to Scala Ad Caelum with everyone still at the Keyblade Graveyard doing something here and there. Riku and Mickey would have to catch the gang up for starters as to what happened to Kairi.

As for tiring Sora out, I think that's a really interesting way to go about all of it. You could argue that Sora having to resolve every issue definitely tired him out, compared to just letting other characters shine. Though I think a bit of added lines could easily make that more clear, however, Sora seems to understand that Xehanort wants them to make a mistake when Ven was going to go with him. You could argue that actually by the time Sora even reached Xehanort, he was running on fumes and high emotion due to using the Power of Waking and losing Kairi.

You made a brilliant point which I totally agree with - unlike KH2 where the additional FM scenes were NEEDED to make KH2's story feel more complete, KH 3 doesn't really need additional scenes to explain anything. Additional scenes will be a nice complement to the game to enhance the experience and do more fan service, but will not be necessary.

Reigning in the conversation to KH2 vs. KH3 - I think what KH2 lacked in Disney world depth, KH 3 definitely made up for it. But KH2 is far superior in the bosses available (even in the normal KH2). There's at least 2 different bosses in each Disney world (one being an Organization member), Hollow Bastion has Demyx and Sephiroth, then the last world has several Organization bosses as well. This is where I'm torn in KH3. I loved the 3 on 3 fights, it was a different experience for us, but I kind of wish that it was one on one. Maybe they should have had Easy and Standard be 3 on 3, then Proud was individual fights with the Organization (back to back)? I'm just hoping that the DLC includes an area where you get mega hard boss fights (including revamped bosses from the Disney worlds).

 

[Elysium]

It promised to be the ending to Xehanort's arc, nothing more. If you say "conclusion to all the unresolved plotlines" and "end to all the endable", you're implying that KH3 promised to end all the stuff from KHUX and things connected to it that started in other games (like Maleficent's plot in Re: Coded), and that's clearly not what the game promised and we've been knowing this from the start. I get what you mean with the rest, but you started from a false premise or you simply expressed yourself wrong.

Your argument is that storylines presented in prior games didn't bring with them the expectation of being resolved or at least involved in the story of KH3 (the end of the arc), and to me that is nonsensical. That's like saying if, for example, characters like Xion, Roxas, etc. hadn't been revived in KH3, fans wouldn't have any right to be upset about that either because it wasn't "promised," that KH3 only "promised" Xehanort's death--as if all the needless side games' only purpose for existing (other than greed) wasn't to build up these plotlines specifically for KH3 to resolve in the first place. If Nomura had no intention of bringing those plotlines into KH3 (again, the end of the arc), then it was his failure for including them in earlier games to begin with to give people the expectation they would play a role in KH3's story. That failing is on him, not the players.

I don't agree with DarkosOverlord, but that's a poor argument for discounting their opinion.

 

[drew0512]

Your argument is that storylines presented in prior games didn't bring with them the expectation of being resolved or at least involved in the story of KH3 (the end of the arc), and to me that is nonsensical. That's like saying if, for example, characters like Xion, Roxas, etc. hadn't been revived in KH3, fans wouldn't have any right to be upset about that either because it wasn't "promised," that KH3 only "promised" Xehanort's death--as if all the needless side games' only purpose for existing (other than greed) wasn't to build up these plotlines specifically for KH3 to resolve in the first place. If Nomura had no intention of bringing those plotlines into KH3 (again, the end of the arc), then it was his failure for including them in earlier games to begin with to give people the expectation they would play a role in KH3's story. That failing is on him, not the players.

You completely misunderstood. I never mentioned "Xehanort's death", I've specifically talked about Dark Seeker Saga (= Xehanort's arc). I guess saying "Xehanorth's arc" could be ambigous and that's probably why you came to the wrong conclusion, so I guess I'll just stick to DS saga.
Anyway, KH3 promised to be the end of the Dark Seeker Saga (which is very different from "end of all the endable) and that's what it was. Or am I wrong? Plot points from BBS, Days and DDD were resolved in KH3, so what's exactly the issue here? That's what I don't understand.

Besides, I'm not discounting DarkosOverlord's opinion, I'm actually trying to understand what he means exactly because we're basically saying the same thing but with different words.

 

[SuperSaiyanSora]

You made a brilliant point which I totally agree with - unlike KH2 where the additional FM scenes were NEEDED to make KH2's story feel more complete, KH 3 doesn't really need additional scenes to explain anything. Additional scenes will be a nice complement to the game to enhance the experience and do more fan service, but will not be necessary.

Reigning in the conversation to KH2 vs. KH3 - I think what KH2 lacked in Disney world depth, KH 3 definitely made up for it. But KH2 is far superior in the bosses available (even in the normal KH2). There's at least 2 different bosses in each Disney world (one being an Organization member), Hollow Bastion has Demyx and Sephiroth, then the last world has several Organization bosses as well. This is where I'm torn in KH3. I loved the 3 on 3 fights, it was a different experience for us, but I kind of wish that it was one on one. Maybe they should have had Easy and Standard be 3 on 3, then Proud was individual fights with the Organization (back to back)? I'm just hoping that the DLC includes an area where you get mega hard boss fights (including revamped bosses from the Disney worlds).

I think the biggest thing people want (besides an Episode Kairi -- crazy how this is where we're at now) is a coliseum of fights and maybe some opportunities for fighting past bosses. So if they're listening, which I really think they are, I have faith that it's on the way.

But honestly, I feel like the Critical Mode they're wanting to implement is going to change a lot of people's opinions on the game as a whole in terms of the experience. That's what they sound like they're doing, otherwise they would've put it out by now. And we're probably not just getting Critical Mode either in the update we get. But who knows.

I think now that the team is done with KH3, they can work towards the next title and whatever DLC they have in mind for KH3. I'm not sure if Nomura would have to be present in order for them to implement stuff, I'm sure they could just get his approval and do what's necessary (Plus Tai Yasue is there), so maybe this month or next month we'll see what's coming. I don't know if they're going to wait until E3 to drop a bunch of stuff, but it would be a pretty hype time of the year to do so.

Also... I do remember Nomura being asked about online capabilities, and it wasn't something that they were gonna do in KH3 but they were considering it, if memory serves. Why not bring back the Mirage Arena? You'd be killing multiple birds with one stone, you'd have a brand new world with fights that could be stuff from the Coliseum AND it would include Organization Data Battles. I think it would be a cool thing to do, it would also give people a reason to come back and play routinely. New bosses added here and there, they could go far if they wanted to.

 

[allenleonardo]

So I know that it all comes down to subjective opinions on a lot of it, yet since I started to play through KH2FM now (first time doing that and it was a long time ago when I played through KH2) I wanted to post my impressions on it here and compare it to KH3. This is only my opinion and of course I am not that far into the game so things can change. (Just beat Hercules world for the first time)

Cutscenes/Dialogue:
People say that KH3 has a lot of those and that is true but honestly right now I get the feeling that KH2 is not much better than that. The tutorial was full with lots of cutscenes and lots of scenes where you have to read all the dialogue that is happening. Every time (as I feel) you get into a new room in a world you get a new Cutscene. I have no problems with that because I love cutscenes but I feel like Kh3 is not worse in that regards than KH2 and on top of that every single Dialogue in KH3 is voiced so at least I dont have to read them. The Dialogue itself also have these pauses in KH2 and imo that happens already way more often than Kh3 did. And some of those scenes are really just awkward. For me its already flowing much better in Kh3 than it did in KH2.

NPCs:
Barely any NPCs there (but more than I remembered especially in Twilight Town) yet none of them are truly voiced outside of Cutscenes and there is no real interaction here. KH3 also does that better imo because there are way more NPCs in all worlds, they are all voiced and they do talk to other NPCs which you can overhear.

Battle Partners:
I like them in both games but it was always a bit sad that you had to lose either Donald or Goofy if you wanted to have the NPC in your party. In KH3 you not only have more partners but everyone stays. They also talk inbetween battles and their actions you can do with them do not take away my mana (which is bad as a mage). So both are kinda fine but I like the system in Kh3 a bit more.

Gummi Ship:
When I replayed KH1FM before KH3 I really disliked that section. Thankfully it was great in KH3 with lots of freedom and I would say that both are fine. KH2 is a big improvement over KH1 and I like both of them but KH3 is still a bit better because of the freedom.

Worlds:
Maybe this changes later but I honestly cant understand how you would like the KH2 worlds more than the KH3 ones. Yes Twilight town has less zones in KH3 but just the forest alone is so much bigger than in KH2. And I was not that impressed with the town in KH2 either. After seeing the amount of detail and life it has in KH3 I really have a hard time in KH2. Otherwise many of the world in KH2 are quite small or like the underworld are often just corridors with nothing in it. They are fine for their time but I prefer the ones in KH3, just alone for the small details in them which makes me often stop to look at things even if there is nothing to get there.

Bosses:
KH2 does have a bit more bosses already than KH3 and both games designed them well. I do say that I would love to have more of those in future games, so this is a part that KH2 might have done a bit better.

Battle style:
Drive forms are fun but are also quite limited to use thanks to them needing Drive to work and it can also punish you at the worst time with Antiform (which appeared in the boss fight in Mulans world for me..). They are also kinda necessary if you want to get all the puzzles because you only level up certain abilities through them. Which is something that I dont really like. Keyblade transformations are an improvement on that imo, because you dont need them for overworld stuff, thus you can take the keyblade that you like the most and use that. They also pop up more often, which makes the battles for me much more fun because they provided me with the most fun in it. You are also not punished for using them and Rage form is just really cool too. You can also store the changes away if you dont need them right now and can switch quite fast between three keyblades.

I also noticed that KH2 loves to use battle conditions a lot. You often have to protect a NPC, have a certain time to beat something or for example in Mulan nearly every battle has something like that, be it that you have to defeat x amount of enemies in y time, keep the morale of the group high enough or protect the door. Its nice sometimes but it gets a bit much when its used that often, especially when you start to look more towards those orbs to keep morale high instead of just enjoying the fights. In KH3 you dont get that much and as far as I can remember its mostly just a timer.

Triangle spam:
Both games have that quite often but KH2 forces them much more often on you. You have certain bosses in KH3 where you have to use the triangle to even win it but most of the fights can be done without it, they are just there to help. I only remember two bosses where I was forced to use attractions for example, while right now every single bossfight in KH2 had the gimmick where you needed to use it to even stand a chance at winning it or was the only reason to win it. I have nothing against that btw. they often look really cool but at least in a lot of battles in KH3 you could simply ignore stuff like the attractions or even the battle partner commandos and still win it.

Magic:
The spells look a bit better in KH3 for me but both are fun to use in the games. I also like the difference between them. Like how fire is a AoE attack in Kh2 and more single target in KH3. Dislike in both that the use of a cure takes away all the magic, KH1 was better with that imo.

Voice actors:
Both are fine but also have moments where especially Sora sounded off. Like he sounded way too mature in some sentences. Otherwise no complains for both games, but of course you had more VA in KH3 just by the fact that you had no more text dialogue.

Additional world things:
Puzzles are a nice addition with the FM but I like the hidden mickeys more. Right now I can see all the puzzle pieces but cant just simply reach them because I am forced to level up certain abilites or get them to reach them. Not that fun even if the idea behind it was great. The hidden mickeys can normally be found on the first run and even if there are paths that only open up afterwards, you simply just need to run through the worlds again. You are not forced to learn certain abilites first thus you could complete the worlds much earlier and for me they provided a very good reason to look even more at the details and some were really good hidden too. This made the exploration of the world even better for me.

Difficulty:
I play through games on normal difficulty most of the times and still died sometimes in KH3. Right now after finishing Hercules world for the first time I still had not a single death. And I was even going to beasts castle first instead of mulans world thus I was quite underleveled for it. So for me they both feel fine and KH2FM does not feel much harder right now. Of course I cant say how its on higher difficulties but at the same time KH3 does not even have a critical mode right now.

I also have to say that I was often a bit overleveled in KH3 because I looked at every bit of the map and often times went back to the world to already search for the hidden mickeys and the treasures and since I liked the fighting a lot I mostly killed everything in my path. Thus of course some worlds got a bit easier but at the same time it took down the need to grind later. The only grind I did was for materials and even that was barely a grind because I already killed lots of heartless on the way thus got most of the stuff already. I dont have much reasons to go back to the KH2 worlds after the story is over (I know that you have a second visit later but that is not happening right now) because I first need to get the abilities anyway.

In the end I do enjoy both games but right now I still like KH3 much more than it, because for me it improved on a lot of things and as a magic user I am just happy that none of the team attacks take away my magic.

 

[SuperSaiyanSora]

So I know that it all comes down to subjective opinions on a lot of it, yet since I started to play through KH2FM now (first time doing that and it was a long time ago when I played through KH2) I wanted to post my impressions on it here and compare it to KH3. This is only my opinion and of course I am not that far into the game so things can change. (Just beat Hercules world for the first time)

Cutscenes/Dialogue:
People say that KH3 has a lot of those and that is true but honestly right now I get the feeling that KH2 is not much better than that. The tutorial was full with lots of cutscenes and lots of scenes where you have to read all the dialogue that is happening. Every time (as I feel) you get into a new room in a world you get a new Cutscene. I have no problems with that because I love cutscenes but I feel like Kh3 is not worse in that regards than KH2 and on top of that every single Dialogue in KH3 is voiced so at least I dont have to read them. The Dialogue itself also have these pauses in KH2 and imo that happens already way more often than Kh3 did. And some of those scenes are really just awkward. For me its already flowing much better in Kh3 than it did in KH2.

NPCs:
Barely any NPCs there (but more than I remembered especially in Twilight Town) yet none of them are truly voiced outside of Cutscenes and there is no real interaction here. KH3 also does that better imo because there are way more NPCs in all worlds, they are all voiced and they do talk to other NPCs which you can overhear.

Battle Partners:
I like them in both games but it was always a bit sad that you had to lose either Donald or Goofy if you wanted to have the NPC in your party. In KH3 you not only have more partners but everyone stays. They also talk inbetween battles and their actions you can do with them do not take away my mana (which is bad as a mage). So both are kinda fine but I like the system in Kh3 a bit more.

Gummi Ship:
When I replayed KH1FM before KH3 I really disliked that section. Thankfully it was great in KH3 with lots of freedom and I would say that both are fine. KH2 is a big improvement over KH1 and I like both of them but KH3 is still a bit better because of the freedom.

Worlds:
Maybe this changes later but I honestly cant understand how you would like the KH2 worlds more than the KH3 ones. Yes Twilight town has less zones in KH3 but just the forest alone is so much bigger than in KH2. And I was not that impressed with the town in KH2 either. After seeing the amount of detail and life it has in KH3 I really have a hard time in KH2. Otherwise many of the world in KH2 are quite small or like the underworld are often just corridors with nothing in it. They are fine for their time but I prefer the ones in KH3, just alone for the small details in them which makes me often stop to look at things even if there is nothing to get there.

Bosses:
KH2 does have a bit more bosses already than KH3 and both games designed them well. I do say that I would love to have more of those in future games, so this is a part that KH2 might have done a bit better.

Battle style:
Drive forms are fun but are also quite limited to use thanks to them needing Drive to work and it can also punish you at the worst time with Antiform (which appeared in the boss fight in Mulans world for me..). They are also kinda necessary if you want to get all the puzzles because you only level up certain abilities through them. Which is something that I dont really like. Keyblade transformations are an improvement on that imo, because you dont need them for overworld stuff, thus you can take the keyblade that you like the most and use that. They also pop up more often, which makes the battles for me much more fun because they provided me with the most fun in it. You are also not punished for using them and Rage form is just really cool too. You can also store the changes away if you dont need them right now and can switch quite fast between three keyblades.

I also noticed that KH2 loves to use battle conditions a lot. You often have to protect a NPC, have a certain time to beat something or for example in Mulan nearly every battle has something like that, be it that you have to defeat x amount of enemies in y time, keep the morale of the group high enough or protect the door. Its nice sometimes but it gets a bit much when its used that often, especially when you start to look more towards those orbs to keep morale high instead of just enjoying the fights. In KH3 you dont get that much and as far as I can remember its mostly just a timer.

Triangle spam:
Both games have that quite often but KH2 forces them much more often on you. You have certain bosses in KH3 where you have to use the triangle to even win it but most of the fights can be done without it, they are just there to help. I only remember two bosses where I was forced to use attractions for example, while right now every single bossfight in KH2 had the gimmick where you needed to use it to even stand a chance at winning it or was the only reason to win it. I have nothing against that btw. they often look really cool but at least in a lot of battles in KH3 you could simply ignore stuff like the attractions or even the battle partner commandos and still win it.

Magic:
The spells look a bit better in KH3 for me but both are fun to use in the games. I also like the difference between them. Like how fire is a AoE attack in Kh2 and more single target in KH3. Dislike in both that the use of a cure takes away all the magic, KH1 was better with that imo.

Voice actors:
Both are fine but also have moments where especially Sora sounded off. Like he sounded way too mature in some sentences. Otherwise no complains for both games, but of course you had more VA in KH3 just by the fact that you had no more text dialogue.

Additional world things:
Puzzles are a nice addition with the FM but I like the hidden mickeys more. Right now I can see all the puzzle pieces but cant just simply reach them because I am forced to level up certain abilites or get them to reach them. Not that fun even if the idea behind it was great. The hidden mickeys can normally be found on the first run and even if there are paths that only open up afterwards, you simply just need to run through the worlds again. You are not forced to learn certain abilites first thus you could complete the worlds much earlier and for me they provided a very good reason to look even more at the details and some were really good hidden too. This made the exploration of the world even better for me.

Difficulty:
I play through games on normal difficulty most of the times and still died sometimes in KH3. Right now after finishing Hercules world for the first time I still had not a single death. And I was even going to beasts castle first instead of mulans world thus I was quite underleveled for it. So for me they both feel fine and KH2FM does not feel much harder right now. Of course I cant say how its on higher difficulties but at the same time KH3 does not even have a critical mode right now.

I also have to say that I was often a bit overleveled in KH3 because I looked at every bit of the map and often times went back to the world to already search for the hidden mickeys and the treasures and since I liked the fighting a lot I mostly killed everything in my path. Thus of course some worlds got a bit easier but at the same time it took down the need to grind later. The only grind I did was for materials and even that was barely a grind because I already killed lots of heartless on the way thus got most of the stuff already. I dont have much reasons to go back to the KH2 worlds after the story is over (I know that you have a second visit later but that is not happening right now) because I first need to get the abilities anyway.

In the end I do enjoy both games but right now I still like KH3 much more than it, because for me it improved on a lot of things and as a magic user I am just happy that none of the team attacks take away my magic.

Good breakdown! I honestly think that when it's all said and done, people will look at KH3 in a positive light. KH2FM had years on it, and most people really only got to play in 2014 (basically 2015), and before that, people would use a patched ISO with an emulator to play it. Not to say that people's dissatisfaction with the game are wrong, though. We all have our own tastes and preferences.

Honestly, you know why else people hold KH2 so highly? It's because a lot of the fan base was built around that time, I think. A lot of the Kingdom Hearts memes and cosplays come from either KH2 or Days. Stuff like Demyx Time is inspired by KH2 and Days. That era was THE time for KH fans, because you had Coded coming out slowly in Japan, 358/2 was coming in 2009, and in 2010, Birth by Sleep was coming. There were a lot of people that had KH2 as their first Kingdom Hearts, and KH2 is also the game alluded to so many things that would come to pass, with BBS completely opening a new can of worms. (And don't even get me started on the fan fiction...)

It all comes down to what you prefer, and I personally like the Keyblade Transformations a bit more due to the versatility that they come with. Some prefer the Drive Forms (even though in a way, they're the same thing, only with a drain meter) and that's fine too. It's funny though, because when it comes to the battle system in KH2, there were some people that felt that it could be a bit "Press Triangle to Win". Fast forward to now, people miss it. So you just never know, I think the game will age really well.

 

[allenleonardo]

Good breakdown! I honestly think that when it's all said and done, people will look at KH3 in a positive light. KH2FM had years on it, and most people really only got to play in 2014 (basically 2015), and before that, people would use a patched ISO with an emulator to play it. Not to say that people's dissatisfaction with the game are wrong, though. We all have our own tastes and preferences.

Honestly, you know why else people hold KH2 so highly? It's because a lot of the fan base was built around that time,

It's funny though, because when it comes to the battle system in KH2, there were some people that felt that it could be a bit "Press Triangle to Win". Fast forward to now, people miss it. So you just never know, I think the game will age really well.

Thank you. After posting in here and finally starting to play KH2 again I thought that I would look at it a bit more and compare it. But I of course enjoy both of them very much. The only KH game that I have played that I did not like was days. Just for me I find that KH3 does quite some things much better than KH2 thus I listed different categories.

I agree with you about KH2 being the first KH game for quite some of the players. And maybe some have just replayed KH2 so much that anything that is different from that is looked at much more critical than normal. Of course some might simply also just like KH2 more.

Its just a bit funny seeing some of the negative points and think "what that was in Kh2 too and maybe even worse". As you pointed out, the "press triangle to win" was quite the negative point in KH2 for some and it is really showing how you are forced into that for each single boss fight. Yet we have all the complaints about attractions which you can ignore (but of course a way to turn them off completely would be great too) so you can fight much more with your own style in this game.

 

[SuperSaiyanSora]

Thank you. After posting in here and finally starting to play KH2 again I thought that I would look at it a bit more and compare it. But I of course enjoy both of them very much. The only KH game that I have played that I did not like was days. Just for me I find that KH3 does quite some things much better than KH2 thus I listed different categories.

I agree with you about KH2 being the first KH game for quite some of the players. And maybe some have just replayed KH2 so much that anything that is different from that is looked at much more critical than normal. Of course some might simply also just like KH2 more.

Its just a bit funny seeing some of the negative points and think "what that was in Kh2 too and maybe even worse". As you pointed out, the "press triangle to win" was quite the negative point in KH2 for some and it is really showing how you are forced into that for each single boss fight. Yet we have all the complaints about attractions which you can ignore (but of course a way to turn them off completely would be great too) so you can fight much more with your own style in this game.

Exactly. When you get down to it, it's really all opinions. It's not a perfect game, but KH3 did a lot of things right. I actually feel like the worlds are FUN this time. People complain about "too much Disney", but that's literally half the franchise. That's the selling point. It would've been nice to have a bigger FF presence though.

And the attractions aren't really all that different from some of the Limit attacks in KH2, just flashier. Drive Forms in KH2 are literally the same in KH3 only this time in 3, you have the ability to use Keyblade Transformations more frequently. But they also don't tend to last as long as the Drive Forms would.

It's fine to prefer KH2 as an experience, but to say that KH3 objectively pales in comparison is wrong. And I'm glad that fans are coming around now and appreciating the game more after some time has passed. Again, it's not a perfect game and there's things that could've been better or should've been added/explored further, but it's still an amazing game on its own right. Once they start rolling out the updates, I bet a lot of people's opinions are going to change too.

 

[Face My Fears]

KH 1 had 12 worlds - 3 original (1 of them featured the Disney worlds somewhat and another a Disney party member/boss) and 9 Disney worlds, so KH 1 was 75% Disney at least.

KH 2 had 16 worlds total - 3 original worlds and 13 Disney worlds, so KH2 was at least 81.25% Disney

KH 3 had 10 worlds - 2 original worlds and 8 Disney worlds, so KH3 was 80% Disney, not to mention the cutscenes/short playable moments in non-Disney locations.

So if they really want to complain that KH2 was better because KH3 had "too much Disney", they need to check themselves.

 

[Elysium]

Well, you have to admit worlds like The World That Never Was, Twilight Town, Radiant Garden, Hollow Bastion, Traverse Town, and End of the World are all larger than KH3's Keyblade Graveyard, TFW, SaC and TT. Thus it's more like the original content got cut down to 10%.

Still, KG in KH3 is jam-packed with so many cutscenes that it feels very long (partly because of the do-over and chasing the Lich around) even if the world itself is pretty barebones and empty. And there is stuff shown with RG, LoD/Oblivion, Mysterious Tower, and the Realm of Darkness, too, even if we only visit two of them very briefly. The clocktower being off-limits in TT is one of those details that is baffling though, in the same vein as not being able to go inside Elsa's palace or Rapunzel losing party member status post-world. They didn't even have to include all the side rooms out of the way to get there that KH2 had; they could've made it so you jump over the area where the "movies" are screened and run over a few roofs to it.

 

[Absent]

I'm just going by feelings-
Personally I don't rank these two games by the pros but by their cons. I had more issues with 3 than with 2(which had its fair share) and those problems feel more bothersome to me.

I don't even like 2's pacing but 3's felt way worse when I experienced it. I really tried giving 3 a benefit of a doubt when playing but in the back of my head I knew I wasn't going to like it completely. I was completely enamored with KH1 all the way to Days, past that I just wasn't enjoying where the story was going and KH3 is the bitter culmination of my disillusion.

I'm tired of being annoyed by Nomura's(and Disney's) shenanigans. I don't like feeling this way towards a dear series I grew up with, I get no satisfaction.

 

[DarkosOverlord]

I'm just going by feelings-
Personally I don't rank these two games by the pros but by their cons. I had more issues with 3 than with 2(which had its fair share) and those problems feel more bothersome to me.

I don't even like 2's pacing but 3's felt way worse when I experienced it. I really tried giving 3 a benefit of a doubt when playing but in the back of my head I knew I wasn't going to like it completely. I was completely enamored with KH1 all the way to Days, past that I just wasn't enjoying where the story was going and KH3 is the bitter culmination of my disillusion.

I'm tired of being annoyed by Nomura's(and Disney's) shenanigans. I don't like feeling this way towards a dear series I grew up with, I get no satisfaction.

When few words and feelings are better than 20 analytical essays (including mine, I'm not try to throw shade at people for debating)

This is exactly how I feel down to a T.
Don't even want to stand up for KH II all that much. For years, KH II was my emotional punching bag for what it didn't do "right" in the series.
I went into KH III really trying to like it and wanting it to be so good, and ended up facing the harsh reality of a series that for me has stopped shining years before it. And I'm so tired of "looking forward" the next iteration hoping they'll finally fix what they didn't for nearly a decade now.

If someone feels criticized for sticking by it, don't. I was that way. I was the guy who'll pop up in random Twitter and Facebook discussions about Kingdom Hearts and defended this or that aspect of the series.
I just don't have it in me anymore. During these months I'm just exhausting all the topics left with you guys.

 

[allenleonardo]

When few words and feelings are better than 20 analytical essays (including mine, I'm not try to throw shade at people for debating)

I went into KH III really trying to like it and wanting it to be so good, and ended up facing the harsh reality of a series that for me has stopped shining years before it. And I'm so tired of "looking forward" the next iteration hoping they'll finally fix what they didn't for nearly a decade now.

If someone feels criticized for sticking by it, don't. I was that way. I was the guy who'll pop up in random Twitter and Facebook discussions about Kingdom Hearts and defended this or that aspect of the series.

Why is it better? (Kinda curious on that) I mean when I look at it that way Kh3 was still better than Kh2 for me. I honestly think that if you compare something you should kinda look at pros and cons and then weight them for yourself. And depending on what you like more or less this can change the view.

So after all these essays it comes down to personal opinions. For you and others it was a disappointment. Thats fine, no game will ever make everyone happy. And its also completely fine to point out what you disliked. (And others then can post their opinion on this views too) But if you are truly that disappointed with the series and see such big flaws for such a long time, then maybe it is time to say goodbye to it. I mean a game is still just something that is made for enjoyment. If you dont enjoy it because of flaws that are there again and again then you are not forced to give it x amount of chances. I know that this might be harder for something that one is following for years but at the same time you seemingly already had problems with it for years too.

About the last sentence: Well people can also just defend it because they simply like it. I wont pop up in random discussions about this, but if there is a thread discussing things here I will post my opinion and for me that is not something that I simply do because I believe that I have to defend it, but because I truly did enjoy the series and Kh3. (And no its not a perfect game for me either but the pros outweight any negative point by quite a large amount thus I focus on that more)

 

[Face My Fears]

When few words and feelings are better than 20 analytical essays (including mine, I'm not try to throw shade at people for debating)

This is exactly how I feel down to a T.
Don't even want to stand up for KH II all that much. For years, KH II was my emotional punching bag for what it didn't do "right" in the series.
I went into KH III really trying to like it and wanting it to be so good, and ended up facing the harsh reality of a series that for me has stopped shining years before it. And I'm so tired of "looking forward" the next iteration hoping they'll finally fix what they didn't for nearly a decade now.

If someone feels criticized for sticking by it, don't. I was that way. I was the guy who'll pop up in random Twitter and Facebook discussions about Kingdom Hearts and defended this or that aspect of the series.
I just don't have it in me anymore. During these months I'm just exhausting all the topics left with you guys.

Maybe people keep thinking that the series should change its formula and improve drastically, like GTA going from what it was on PC to GTA San Andreas. I think people's expectations are what cause them to be so disappointed by KH III. We basically saw everything that the game had to offer in the last few trailers, so I really don't think they were advertising anything that we did not get. People just assumed Final Fantasy characters would be in the game, people just assumed that Kairi would have a major role... the list goes on and on. Maybe I'm different, but I love this series for the gameplay and the story. Its easy gameplay and insane story are all I need. Are there other things that I want (like more Disney/harder bosses/more side quests/showing other characters do stuff etc)? Yes. But I got what I was expecting and some more. I got a brand new journey with the squad (Sora/Donald/Goofy) and that's pretty much all I needed. So I can be critical on all the games as a player, but as a fan I adore each game. Like I can openly admit that it was pretty much agony playing KH 358/2 Days because the gameplay was just so annoying to me, but the story (and Roxas) salvaged it for me and hence I always say I love Days. I will never, ever PLAY it again, but I watch those cutscenes all the time.

 

[Elysium]

Maybe people keep thinking that the series should change its formula and improve drastically, like GTA going from what it was on PC to GTA San Andreas. I think people's expectations are what cause them to be so disappointed by KH III. We basically saw everything that the game had to offer in the last few trailers, so I really don't think they were advertising anything that we did not get. People just assumed Final Fantasy characters would be in the game, people just assumed that Kairi would have a major role... the list goes on and on.

People assume a lot of basic things. I'm sure you assumed Namine, Aqua, all those other characters would be in KH3. Or many assumed there would be an orchestra version of the theme song. Or that SDG would be the main party, that the command menu would return, that you would be able to synthesize an Ultima Weapon again, that Sora would be able to dodge roll or glide. Or you assumed that there would be a Gummi ship you travel between worlds with. The only difference is those happened. I don't think expecting something minor means someone wanted a drastic change in formula or even that they dislike the final product.

 

[Face My Fears]

People assume a lot of basic things. I'm sure you assumed Namine, Aqua, all those other characters would be in KH3. Or many assumed there would be an orchestra version of the theme song. Or that SDG would be the main party, that the command menu would return, that you would be able to synthesize an Ultima Weapon again, that Sora would be able to dodge roll or glide. Or you assumed that there would be a Gummi ship you travel between worlds with. The only difference is those happened. I don't think expecting something minor means someone wanted a drastic change in formula or even that they dislike the final product.

I saw a lot of discussions of what people seriously assumed would be in KH3. Things like a more advanced combat system, more difficult story mode, Final Fantasy characters part of the main story, Kairi given significant screen time and a major role, and more. The things you stated are basically staples of the KH series and/or advertised in trailers.

 

[Deleted member]

you ever think about the fact that kh2 vanilla didn't even have dodge roll