Why didn't Xigbar mention Roxas' similarity to Ventus?

[Gram]

I'm playing through this game right now, and I'm about halfway through. I ALWAYS talk to everyone in the grey room, and so far he hasn't said anything like that. I'll let you know if he does say this at some point.

It's later in the game, Xigbar will be sitting on the couch to the left of the room. I always did the extra missions as well so there was some extra days they was all gathered in the grey room for me to so I'm not sure if it's on a day that you can't skip or one that you could skip past by ignoring extra missions.

 

[Rydgea]

Yeah, that was much later in the game. *has been doing a Proud playthrough before 1.5 comes out*

The quote is:

"Ain't Xion just a peach now? Face of an angel. Just gotta be careful -- girls her age have many faces."

Xigbar was cautioning Roxas on womanly wiles / Xion being tempermental and wishy washy with Organization XIII. It's a pretty clever line and themactically fits in perfectly. Considering everyone's different perspectives, and regardless that Xigbar himself sees her as Ven, he practically acknowledges her as a real girl here.

 

[Gram]

I knew I remembered seeing him say something! That line always stuck out to me cause he does more or less acknowledge Xion's a girl, I just wonder if it's cause he can see her as herself some times.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

That makes sense, through the apprentice he'd see her as herself, through terra he'd see ven and because he's fought sora he'd see him as well.

Maybe it depends on what memories within her are strongest at the moment?

I remember once, while playing days, that if you talk to Xigbar in the grey room on one of the days he's there he comments that Xion has a "face of an angel". Does this mean Xigbar also possibly seen her as both herself as well as ven at varying times like Xemnas or since it was a comment in the grey room/hub of the game should it not be taken to seriously?

That sounds plausible, although the Ven-bit can come from both Master Xehanort and Terra, as Xemnas was said to recover memories of both Master Xehanort and Terra throughout his "sessions" in the chamber of repose.

Could be, it would go hand-in-hand with the "yo-yo"-effect she and Roxas have with Sora's disconnected memories. Xion sometimes absorbs more, sometimes some memories fall back into Roxas. Depending on which memories (and how many) are inside Xion, it could result in Xemnas' perspective of her changing, maybe even coupled with which memories inside Xemnas (his own, Apprenticenort's, Terra's or MX's) are strongest right now.

It is possible. Nomura has stated that Xigbar does not always see Xion as Ventus.

Xigbar was cautioning Roxas on womanly wiles / Xion being tempermental and wishy washy with Organization XIII. It's a pretty clever line and themactically fits in perfectly. Considering everyone's different perspectives, and regardless that Xigbar himself sees her as Ven, he practically acknowledges her as a real girl here.

Xigbar didn't see Xion always as Ven, and regardless that "angelface" is a term that could be reasonably applied to Ven as well, the actual quote of Xigbar shows that he at least once saw her in her own form of the black-haired girl.

 

[ajmrowland]

Where was it said that Xemnas was gathering memories in chamber of Awakening?

 

[Ruran]

Funnily enough, I never thought Xion ever looked like KH-Kairi with black hair. I think, sort of like Roxas with Sora, her face is more consistently Identical to KH2 Kairi, despite real Kairi likely looking so much younger then.

Compare that with COM Namine, who I can believably see as identical to KH1 Kairi, aside from being blonde and having blonde eyebrows. No problem there.

Canonically I assume that during Xion's earlier days of existence she looked more like KH1 Kairi but since Days takes place over the course of a year she eventually came to look like KH2 Kairi. I figured that the reason Xion consistently looked like KH2 Kairi despite this was for the same reason Roxas looked like he does in KH2 throughout all of Days even though he should have looked notably younger at the beginning, just as Sora had, and why Riku had an awkward growth spurt: technical limitations.

Where was it said that Xemnas was gathering memories in chamber of Awakening?

I'm not entirely sure because it's been awhile since I've seen them but I think it was in the extra KH2FM+ cutscenes. I thiiiiiink...Might have been mentioned in an interview as well but I definitely recall something along those lines.

 

[Rydgea]

Xigbar didn't see Xion always as Ven, and regardless that "angelface" is a term that could be reasonably applied to Ven as well, the actual quote of Xigbar shows that he at least once saw her in her own form of the black-haired girl.

I highly doubt he meant Ventus has the face of an angel here (especially since Ven apparently always glares at him like his goldfish was drowned), but suuure... and I didn't mean he always/only saw her as Ven. My point was, despite that, he reaffirms (early on) what we've been told recently in DDD: she's growing a heart, becoming an individual, less puppet-like, etc...

Where was it said that Xemnas was gathering memories in chamber of Awakening?

Yeah, that would be good to see for reference purposes.

 

[Gram]

That sounds plausible, although the Ven-bit can come from both Master Xehanort and Terra, as Xemnas was said to recover memories of both Master Xehanort and Terra throughout his "sessions" in the chamber of repose.

Could be, it would go hand-in-hand with the "yo-yo"-effect she and Roxas have with Sora's disconnected memories. Xion sometimes absorbs more, sometimes some memories fall back into Roxas. Depending on which memories (and how many) are inside Xion, it could result in Xemnas' perspective of her changing, maybe even coupled with which memories inside Xemnas (his own, Apprenticenort's, Terra's or MX's) are strongest right now.

It is possible. Nomura has stated that Xigbar does not always see Xion as Ventus.

That makes sense, depending on the which extreme her 'yo-yo' effect was leaning towards determined how all the org members saw her. The few times other members mentioned her they would refer to her as a "her" (except Saix since he only ever saw an "it") so maybe the more of soras memories she possessed, and the more of her own heart she began to develop, the more often the others saw her as 'herself'.

Granted just speculation that dont hold that much water since nomura neglected to give us more screen time on other members during days but still something fun to think about. Kinda like the more of her own person she became the more others began to see her "real" face.

After all Namine was able to see her as "herself" as well and with her connections to sora you'd think she'd see someone else in xions face.

Xigbar didn't see Xion always as Ven, and regardless that "angelface" is a term that could be reasonably applied to Ven as well, the actual quote of Xigbar shows that he at least once saw her in her own form of the black-haired girl.

I believe that's what he was getting at. I doubt Xigbar would consider ven's face as a "face of an angel" xD

 

[ajmrowland]

Why is it being called the "yo-yo" effect? Is it simply because she often bounces back and forthe between identities?

I'm not entirely sure because it's been awhile since I've seen them but I think it was in the extra KH2FM+ cutscenes. I thiiiiiink...Might have been mentioned in an interview as well but I definitely recall something along those lines.

There were those scenes yes, but it's too vague to really say that's where he's getting memories, if at all.

Though I suppose that makes for a good purpose for Aquas armor

 

[Gram]

It's called 'yo-yo' effect cause some days Roxas will have more of sora's memories, and thereby power, while others Xion will have the higher amount and who has the most varies from day to day.

Just like a yo-yo going up and down on it's string the varying amount of sora's memories that is divided between Roxas and Xion goes up and down with one having more than the other at varying points.

 

[ajmrowland]

Okay, so almost removing sora from that, what should be roxas' sometimes goes down to xion and then to him again. Got itlol

I always thought it xion was more consistently growing stronger than that.

 

[Gram]

There was always a balance between Sora, the owner, Roxas the nobody, and Xion the replica. When Soras memories were messed with they seeped into roxas and then absorbed from him by xion.

Her strength has largely always depended on how much of sora's memories she had absorbed from roxas. It's pointed out by Axel in days and it's pointed out near the end of the game as Xion gets stronger and Roxas starts to fatigue easier. Xion even mentions he starts to look pale.

 

[ajmrowland]

Of course, but average yo-yoing only goes two ways. nah, that's not what confused me it was the analogy.

 

[Korai]

Xigbar didn't see Xion always as Ven, and regardless that "angelface" is a term that could be reasonably applied to Ven as well, the actual quote of Xigbar shows that he at least once saw her in her own form of the black-haired girl.

This is why Xigbar came up with the nickname "poppet" for her, because he saw her as a puppet at first like Saix did.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I highly doubt he meant Ventus has the face of an angel here (especially since Ven apparently always glares at him like his goldfish was drowned), but suuure... and I didn't mean he always/only saw her as Ven. My point was, despite that, he reaffirms (early on) what we've been told recently in DDD: she's growing a heart, becoming an individual, less puppet-like, etc...

Do not forget that Xigbar is a troll to a T, he also often uses such things meant in a sarcastic way. Beside that, an "Angel's face" is not always meant by just the expression, but also the overall look. Pit from Kid Icarus also has an "Angel's face" despite looking often angry and being an literal angel.
But we're trailing off topic, I was after all just being a tad joking there myself.
Yep, that's what it boils down to in the end. Despite on what Xion was originally based upon, the experiences she had and the memories she created from it nurtured her fledging heart, making her become more of an own individual.

That makes sense, depending on the which extreme her 'yo-yo' effect was leaning towards determined how all the org members saw her. The few times other members mentioned her they would refer to her as a "her" (except Saix since he only ever saw an "it") so maybe the more of soras memories she possessed, and the more of her own heart she began to develop, the more often the others saw her as 'herself'.

Granted just speculation that dont hold that much water since nomura neglected to give us more screen time on other members during days but still something fun to think about. Kinda like the more of her own person she became the more others began to see her "real" face.

After all Namine was able to see her as "herself" as well and with her connections to sora you'd think she'd see someone else in xions face.


I believe that's what he was getting at. I doubt Xigbar would consider ven's face as a "face of an angel" xD

Exactly, in Saix' case though I could imagine that he simply took the "we have no emotions and no true existence" way too much seriously, which also attributed to him being such a successful vessel. Because if Saix did not even see himself as a true person, how can he be expected to see something that was originally created as a doll becoming a true person? Axel eventually came around to it (while Roxas always saw her as a person) and told her that she's "no puppet in his book".

It's a plausible speculation though, also since we cannot use Xemnas or Roxas as poster examples because they were special cases here (again). The most "normal" examples we got are indeed the tidbits from Xigbar and Axel, who initially also saw her as the hooded doll, later on sometimes as Naminé and again other times as Xion.
One time though Axel saw a third person, when Xion knocked out Xigbar and left. When Axel later speaks with Roxas he says he "saw into the mirror but it wasn't Roxas he saw". So at that point, Axel may have seen Xion either as Ventus, like Xigbar, or as Sora, like Xemnas sometimes.
I've to say though Xemnas is still the most interesting case, since he alternates often between seeing Xion as "Xion", Ventus or Sora.

That's true as well, although this may have to do with either a) because Naminé is herself "derived" from Kairi and therefore closer to Kairi, she sees Xion as "herself" in her "Kairi"-Form or b) Naminé actually started to see Xion as her own entity, as she once confessed to Riku how impressed she is with how Roxas and Xion are fighting to be their own individuals. This was what made the task that the two had to disappear in order to restore Sora even harder to do for her.

Of course, but average yo-yoing only goes two ways. nah, that's not what confused me it was the analogy.

It does go only two ways though, as Sora is only the owner of the disconnected memories that are juggled between Xion and Roxas. Sora himself doesn't participate in the "yo-yo".

This is why Xigbar came up with the nickname "poppet" for her, because he saw her as a puppet at first like Saix did.

At the very first, when Xion had no sense of self at all, everyone saw her as the hooded puppet, even Roxas did until the second mission he performed with her.

 

[ajmrowland]

Yep, that's what it boils down to in the end. Despite on what Xion was originally based upon, the experiences she had and the memories she
It's a plausible speculation though, also since we cannot use Xemnas or Roxas as poster examples because they were special cases here (again). The most "normal" examples we got are indeed the tidbits from Xigbar and Axel, who initially also saw her as the hooded doll, later on sometimes as Naminé and again other times as Xion.
One time though Axel saw a third person, when Xion knocked out Xigbar and left. When Axel later speaks with Roxas he says he "saw into the mirror but it wasn't Roxas he saw". So at that point, Axel may have seen Xion either as Ventus, like Xigbar, or as Sora, like Xemnas sometimes.
I've to say though Xemnas is still the most interesting case, since he alternates often between seeing Xion as "Xion", Ventus or Sora.

Has Xigbar ever seen her as Namine?

I always thought it was Sora whom Axel was seeing there-sort of like a haunting memory-but now that I come to think of it, when he met Ventus, they had a battle. And Axel doesn't seem very sure of things.

It does go only two ways though, as Sora is only the owner of the disconnected memories that are juggled between Xion and Roxas. Sora himself doesn't participate in the "yo-yo".

exactly.

 

[Lord Sora]

One time though Axel saw a third person, when Xion knocked out Xigbar and left. When Axel later speaks with Roxas he says he "saw into the mirror but it wasn't Roxas he saw". So at that point, Axel may have seen Xion either as Ventus, like Xigbar, or as Sora, like Xemnas sometimes.

Wow, that sounds iteresting - I really need to look a bit deeper into that scene when I come across it again while replaying the game. But it does leave us with the question why Roxas saw Xion as Sora if Axel saw her as Ventus.
I guess that's why Axel seeing Sora would've given the first impression.

 

[Gram]

Exactly, in Saix' case though I could imagine that he simply took the "we have no emotions and no true existence" way too much seriously, which also attributed to him being such a successful vessel. Because if Saix did not even see himself as a true person, how can he be expected to see something that was originally created as a doll becoming a true person? Axel eventually came around to it (while Roxas always saw her as a person) and told her that she's "no puppet in his book".

It's a plausible speculation though, also since we cannot use Xemnas or Roxas as poster examples because they were special cases here (again). The most "normal" examples we got are indeed the tidbits from Xigbar and Axel, who initially also saw her as the hooded doll, later on sometimes as Naminé and again other times as Xion.
One time though Axel saw a third person, when Xion knocked out Xigbar and left. When Axel later speaks with Roxas he says he "saw into the mirror but it wasn't Roxas he saw". So at that point, Axel may have seen Xion either as Ventus, like Xigbar, or as Sora, like Xemnas sometimes.
I've to say though Xemnas is still the most interesting case, since he alternates often between seeing Xion as "Xion", Ventus or Sora.

That's true as well, although this may have to do with either a) because Naminé is herself "derived" from Kairi and therefore closer to Kairi, she sees Xion as "herself" in her "Kairi"-Form or b) Naminé actually started to see Xion as her own entity, as she once confessed to Riku how impressed she is with how Roxas and Xion are fighting to be their own individuals. This was what made the task that the two had to disappear in order to restore Sora even harder to do for her.

That's a very good observation on Saix and makes complete sense and I never thought of it as Siax not even seeing himself as a person before.

lol Yeah thanks to their special circumstances I try not to use Roxas or Xemnas as any examples.
I always assumed the third person Axel saw was Sora since he would be of more recent memory than Ventus. (if he can even remember Ven at all by this point in time)
Xemnas is definitely a more curious case in what he saw in Xion due to the connections we now know he has to others. Even Roxas, the other special nobody, only ever saw her as herself after first handful of missions together and he didn't see her as Sora till Xemnas' tampering with her.

As far as Namine goes it may be a bit of both a and b given her unique nature.

Has Xigbar ever seen her as Namine?

No, only Axel in the secret reports of days referred to seeing Xion as Namine.

Wow, that sounds iteresting - I really need to look a bit deeper into that scene when I come across it again while replaying the game. But it does leave us with the question why Roxas saw Xion as Sora if Axel saw her as Ventus.
I guess that's why Axel seeing Sora would've given the first impression.

Roxas only saw her as sora near the end because Xemnas done something to her after Axel brought her back at the end of the game.
I'm leaning towards Axel seeing her as Sora because he would be in more recent memory and because of his friendship with roxas he would have a closer connection to sora than he would ven whom he only encountered for a brief moment.

 

[Lord Sora]

Roxas only saw her as sora near the end because Xemnas done something to her after Axel brought her back at the end of the game.
I'm leaning towards Axel seeing her as Sora because he would be in more recent memory and because of his friendship with roxas he would have a closer connection to sora than he would ven whom he only encountered for a brief moment.

Oh, I see. I thought the part with Axel was also near the end after he let her go away, then Xion met up with Roxas. But seems I was wrong, It's been three years so my memory is a bit hazy.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Has Xigbar ever seen her as Namine?

I always thought it was Sora whom Axel was seeing there-sort of like a haunting memory-but now that I come to think of it, when he met Ventus, they had a battle. And Axel doesn't seem very sure of things.

Not as I can recall, and Xigbar was one of those who was most open about this stuff (without anyone in the Org actually realizing, due to his trolling nature).

I'm also tending more towards Sora, although it was the same scene, when we see Xion as Ventus we see her from Xigbar's perspective, not Axel's. Considering that during the whole time of CoM, Days and KH 2 Axel seems to have no recollection of Ventus at all, despite his twin-in-looks being right in his view for most of the time, it sounds more plausible that he saw Xion as Sora for that short moment.

That's a very good observation on Saix and makes complete sense and I never thought of it as Siax not even seeing himself as a person before.

It shows from how he acts and how he dismisses anything remotely having to do with personhood the other members, but especially Axel and Roxas, show. Especially his interactions with Axel and Roxas in Days are full of it, like

Saïx: What do you care? The creature is broken. Defective.

(Roxas stops and turns around)

Roxas (angrily): Don't call her that!

Saïx: I'll call that thing whatever I want. How we deal with Xion is no
concern of yours.

Roxas: I didn't ask you if it was!

Saïx: Look at you, Roxas. Up in arms over a nobody.

Roxas: We're all Nobodies!

Saïx: Settle down. Xion's failings won't affect your standing with us.
You've nothing to worry about.

Saix either doesn't bother to think that Roxas could have real feelings or he cannot fathom it because he completely believes in Xemnas' and Xigbar's propaganda and also doesn't see any emotional spark he has himself as a true emotion but a trick played by his residual memories.

Or this gem:

Xigbar: "Somebody"? Are we all gonna pretend we don't know who? Little Poppet
is turning into a problem--and I think you catch my meaning.

Saïx: Nonsense. I see no problem whatsoever.

Xigbar: Ha ha! Well no, apparently you don't!

Saïx: Something you find amusing?

Xigbar: If people see with their hearts, Saïx, then you're even blinder than
the rest of us.

Here, Xigbar is first mocking Saix for not realizing that Xion is developing a sense of self and becoming more and more of an own individual (hence why Saix still sees her as a doll and call her an "it") and secondly he mocks Saix himself for being blind.
At first glance, it may seem like it's another jab at Saix in regards to Xion, but when we look at the things we learned in Dream Drop Distance and take into consideration Xigbar's tendency to hint at certain truths through his trolling personality, Xigbar is actually mocking Saix for falling straight through into Xehanort's master scheme and deny his fledging emotions and how perfect of a vessel he is because of this.
Xigbar even mentions "hearts" and with this double meaning it can also stand for him telling Saix (without him noticing) that he won't ever grow a new heart because he's "blind".

lol Yeah thanks to their special circumstances I try not to use Roxas or Xemnas as any examples.
I always assumed the third person Axel saw was Sora since he would be of more recent memory than Ventus. (if he can even remember Ven at all by this point in time)
Xemnas is definitely a more curious case in what he saw in Xion due to the connections we now know he has to others. Even Roxas, the other special nobody, only ever saw her as herself after first handful of missions together and he didn't see her as Sora till Xemnas' tampering with her.

That was always my strategy as well, and although we have learned much about how Roxas' special case works throughout the series, he still doesn't make a good example for normal workings while Xemnas is still an even bigger enigma.
Yep, me too, especially since Axel does not seem to have any recollection of Ven at all during all of CoM, Days and KH 2, unlike Xigbar, who lets shine through that he does.
Indeed, and that's what I have a slight hope might be addressed a bit further in KH III, as we still do not know much about Xemnas' actual composition of memories, parts and powers in relation to MX, Eraqus and Terra.

As far as Namine goes it may be a bit of both a and b given her unique nature.


No, only Axel in the secret reports of days referred to seeing Xion as Namine.


Roxas only saw her as sora near the end because Xemnas done something to her after Axel brought her back at the end of the game.
I'm leaning towards Axel seeing her as Sora because he would be in more recent memory and because of his friendship with roxas he would have a closer connection to sora than he would ven whom he only encountered for a brief moment.

True dat, besides Xemnas, Naminé is practically the biggest mystery still out there in terms of the actual being.

True as well, and since Xigbar often commented freely on how Xion appeared to him, her appearing as Naminé would surely have been mentioned as well. So it stands to reason that she didn't appear as Naminé to Xigbar.

All true the third time, lol.

Oh, I see. I thought the part with Axel was also near the end after he let her go away, then Xion met up with Roxas. But seems I was wrong, It's been three years so my memory is a bit hazy.

It was near the end, in the same scene when Xigbar saw Xion as Ven. Shortly after, before Roxas leaves when he confronts Axel, Axel speaks about the "smoke and mirrors"-stuff and that it wasn't Roxas he saw in the mirror. Of course, being in denial and completely out of the loop because no one ever told him anything Roxas doesn't understand what Axel is implying at all.