Wouldn't it make way more sense to have divisions for different body types instead?
General ► Why are sports separated by gender?
- Thread starter WaltK
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what are you tryna achieve by asking the question, bc the answer is very obvious.
Not to me…?
I mean, the big gender controversy going on at the Olympics right now is over two cis women that are so strong that transphobes everywhere are assuming they're trans.
Perhaps I'm just naive but, doesn't this prove that the whole argument against trans women competing in women's sports is pointless, and that divisions based on gender are illogical and that physical builds should be the thing to focus on? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Honestly I think you are being naive, I don't wanna say it but it sort of comes off as reverse concern trolling.
These guys are Olympians - they are already way beyond the limits of us mere mortals, and some humans are literally just genetically wired to be better at *some* things, like Michael Phelps' freakish wingspan. Other men just biologically couldn't compete at that level, although I didn't hear anyone cry about it at the time like they're doing now.
How would you organise by "physical build"? Weight class? Height? Testosterone level? At the end of the day it's still unfair to put up cisgender women at the top of their game against men, it's why football doesn't allow for mixed teams after age 15, and why professional women's teams can be run ragged by U17 boys teams. There are some biological realities you can't turn away from.
Similarly, it would probably be unfair to cis male gymnasts if they were supposed to compete with cis female gymnasts in certain disciplines. I'm NOT saying "boys are just better" but I AM saying that there are somethings that our bodies are genetically better predisposed to do. Sure its a generalisation but its a generalisation based on something that's true for the majority, and it works.
What's happening to Imane Khelif is disgusting and I'm so so happy for her that she's won her recent bout (against a woman who's taller and bulkier btw. Whatever that's worth for the right wing droids). Really, what this proves is white women tears can burn the world, bc there is no reason for the Italian disgraceful remarks to have been given the time of day.
EDIT: Off topic but I thought the title of this thread was "why are sports separated by general" and I was about to complain on how there no Sports tag for threads, and can we PLEASE get a sports tag
EDIT EDIT: Also there's plenty of mixed Olympic sports, equestrian is the major one I'm thinking of, they're only gender segregated when it makes sense, and generally it makes sense.
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Cool, dude!
See this is why I didn't even want to touch this ridiculous minefield, bc I tried very hard to make sure I made my point in a safe way and I'm getting called out anyway.
this is such a fucking lame way of communicating that you found something offensive. there's nothing constructive about it. they were trying to convey something delicately, and erroneously used an outdated term. there's something truly special about ripping out all but two words of a person's post in a quote and essentially saying 'fuck you' without engaging with what it was they were actually trying to say.
"biological man"/"woman" isn't something a person should use in an exclusionary sense. there are both genetic and developmental components to a person realizing that they're trans, but either way, that term is usually only polished off to diminish or disavow trans identities. words have contextual meanings of course, but if I were to discuss this more I'd be more apt to use prefixes like cis- and trans- when discussing the differences between gender identities
which, especially when discussing sports, I fuckin' WON'T because this is such an overhyped, overdiscussed issue with so few notable incidents. it's an obvious strawman 9/10 times
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, the word cisgender actually completely slipped my mind while I was writing this post and I was desperately thinking of it when I resorted to using biological. I *knew* there was something i was missing. I am going to update my post now.
Well, fuck. Maybe it's best we just put this discussion to rest if that's your takeaway.
I can assure you I was being 100% sincere, but I've obviously tripped a wire that should have been left well enough alone. I'm sorry.
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I'm glad you're someone for whom it's safe for you to explain the issues with terms like this, but that's not been my personal experience on the internet, or, like, in life in general. If you think it's a shitty thing to have been taught, you might be right, but this thread isn't changing my perception so far.
No, I'm sorry, I wouldn't want you to feel like you're at fault, if I didn't think you were being honest or genuine I wouldn't have bothered answering. It's not a topic I want to touch with a bargepole.
Pretty much every time it's bought up its either A) by someone who has no inclination towards sports at all or B) someone with an agenda or ideological position to push or more commonly, both.
If I try to explain it as best as I can, the issue really comes when any person who has gone through male puberty competes against AFAB people, it's inherently unfair. From what I understand, the increased muscle mass and other advantages gained from male puberty tend to stay even after HRT.
If we had completely open competitions assigned by weight class, you would never - or hardly ever - see women compete at the top levels. If you have a 66kg AMAB vs AFAB fight, it's really really unlikely the AFAB person would win.
Furthermore weight classes work for boxing and are there for safety reasons, how would we reclassify other contact sports?
Do we have a featherweight and heavyweight FIFA WC?
Do we rework the whole Cricket structure? If so, AFAB people would never get a chance at breaking records because the fastest bowl by a woman doesn't touch the 90+ mph regularly achieved by some bowlers.
Its a nice, utopian thought to have but it would completely have to burn the sporting structure to the ground and rebuild it in a pretty haphazard way, imo.
In this context in particular, Imane Khelif is not a boxer who is lighting the world on fire, her recent record is something like 9-5. That doesn't speak of someone who's got insane genetic advantage like Michael Phelps did.
The issue arises because the Russian owned IBA (International Boxing Association) disqualified her after she beat an unbeaten Russian boxer (funny coincidence?) with some nonsense about failing gender tests. The IOC has repeatedly asked for clarification about the validity of these tests and have been told "she had too much testosterone" then "she had an XY chromosome" and then "shut up, we're not showing our results, just accept it".
So the IOC has actually stripped the IBA of its recognition. It was a total smear campaign against a cis woman who had the misfortune of embarrassing a Russian boxer. It only got bought up again because Carini took a hit to her previously injured nose and didn't wanna risk injury again, so she started crying and bought this up again. I'm glad she got shown up, and I'm glad the IOC backed Imane and stood it's ground.
BTW please do tell me if I'm using these terms correctly and if I've said anything that's offensive. I *will* improve and do better. And yeah, these incidents are either non existent or are soooooo overblown, the current structure isn't an issue imo.
I… will be honest in admitting I fall very much into category A there.
Male and female bodies typically develop differently.
It just wouldn't be fair to join up sports like that. Like there may be 5 WNBA players that may make it in the NBA but All NBA players would make it in the WNBA in dominate fashion. Hell Men's NCAA (College) live would have no issue competing and dominating. That is just basketball.
Think of other sports
Football / Soccer
Baseball
Tennis
MMA / UFC
Boxing
American football
Track and Field
Swimming
Its hard seeing female Athletes have any advantage or even playing on a even standing with male athletes.
This sounds sexist as hell but I'm just being honest here.
It just wouldn't be fair to join up sports like that. Like there may be 5 WNBA players that may make it in the NBA but All NBA players would make it in the WNBA in dominate fashion. Hell Men's NCAA (College) live would have no issue competing and dominating. That is just basketball.
Think of other sports
Football / Soccer
Baseball
Tennis
MMA / UFC
Boxing
American football
Track and Field
Swimming
Its hard seeing female Athletes have any advantage or even playing on a even standing with male athletes.
This sounds sexist as hell but I'm just being honest here.