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Who was the traitor?



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NoWay

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I mean like seriously.

Do we know it? Are we supposed to know it by now? The whole Foreteller Arc in X/UX built this up with all the conflicts between them, but it was never (clearly) resolved.

As far as I know, we only have theories about Ava being the traitor because of ignoring the Master’s orders.

I also have the feeling that this plot is not going to be dealt with in the further Union X story updates.. Or do you think that anyone from the new 5 Union Leaders is going to be the traitor who bears the sigil?

I am confused (as always with this series Lmao)
 
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LoneFox

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As far as I know, we only have theories about Ava being the traitor because of ignoring the Master’s orders.
First, those theories are wrong. We kind of know that Ava did change the future, because why else would they make such a big fuss about it, but let's ignore that for now and consider both possibilities. If she did change the future, then what she did is not in the book, therefore the Master of Masters didn't know about it, so he cannot call her a traitor. On the other hand, if she didn't change anything, then why would it be a big deal? Yes, she did disobey MoM's rules, but so did everyone else. Forming and breaking alliances, spying on each other, trying to take over and become a king, planning to summon Kingdom Hearts...

From that we get one possible answer: All of the foretellers are traitors. They all violated some of the rules, and I think at least two of them actually believe themselves to be the traitor mentioned in the book.

But there is more.

In the biblical stuff (Should we call it satire? It feels a bit too subtle for that word.) MoM represents God and Luxu represents Lucifer, the traitorous angel who started a rebellion and ended up becoming the Devil. Luxu broke an explicit promise (that he gave in Back Cover) by opening the box and reading the book. It seems that in future games the main conflict is going to be between these two. So, obviously Luxu is the traitor.

But there is even more.

These days many smart people think that God is actually the villain of that story. He claims to be absolutely good, but his actions are (at least by modern standards) those of an unquestionably evil being. Lucifer is just pointing out the Truth about this, which is generally the right thing to do. And the same logic applies to MoM and Luxu, think how much death and suffering MoM has caused. This is a good reason to say that the real traitor is actually the Master of Masters himself.

But then there is even better reason.

When MoM talks about his role in the previous keyblade war, he is doing it in a way that intentionally has a double meaning. He doesn't want to lie, but he doesn't want to tell the truth either. He says that "the monsters looked like us", because he was one of them, likely even THE one. He says that other keyblade wielders didn't count, because they were fighting against him. He was on the side of darkness in that conflict! Then he changed sides at some point, becoming a traitor in a very literal sense. Now he is a fanatic of light, deeply ashamed of what he once was, hiding the sigil under his black coat. Some further evidence of all this is in his symbol, where the wings of darkness and light describe his transformation and form the X-shape of the sigil, but it is hidden behind a cross, which represents what he is doing now.

That's three interpretations, all valid in some sense. Of course there may be even more...

So, "Now that you know who the traitor is, can you accept it?"
 

zander1995

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My personal theory is there was never a traitor among the foretellers at all. The prophecy of the traitor might be about the person who caused Strelitzia's death and tricked Ventus into becoming one of the group.

It's possible this was one of the foretellers, but I doubt it since they canonically perished during the Keyblade War and Darkness still exists in the new world.
what she did is not in the book, therefore the Master of Masters didn't know about it, so he cannot call her a traitor.
That's not necessarily true. What's written in the book is what the Master wanted them to know. He hid things and made a lot of the wording intentionally vague, and even removed a page. It's entirely possible that Ava was following his plan, even if unintentionally, because he gave her the wrong information.

Not that I think Ava is the traitor, of course.
From that we get one possible answer: All of the foretellers are traitors. They all violated some of the rules, and I think at least two of them actually believe themselves to be the traitor mentioned in the book.
This is definitely an interesting possibility and one I think is possible.
Luxu broke an explicit promise (that he gave in Back Cover) by opening the box and reading the book. It seems that in future games the main conflict is going to be between these two. So, obviously Luxu is the traitor.
Feels too obvious for Nomura, and I'm pretty sure Luxu hasn't read the book or opened the box. He's followed the MOM's plan almost religiously at this point over the course of decades. The Master also implies he knows Luxu never reads the book or opens the box because he's seen the future.
(MoM traitor theory)
While I think the MoM being traitor is a possibility (he could even be Darkness), I'm not sure the religious symbolism is that complex. Nomura likes to make sweeping references to religious imagery and mythology, but it's never actually all that deep. It's more set dressing and imagery than actual parallels.

Except for the Thirteen Xehanorts being some weird Jesus and his Apostles parallel. That was definitely intentional.
 

LoneFox

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That's not necessarily true. What's written in the book is what the Master wanted them to know. He hid things and made a lot of the wording intentionally vague, and even removed a page. It's entirely possible that Ava was following his plan, even if unintentionally, because he gave her the wrong information.
But how much control he has over what is in the book? Brain was probably correct when he suggested that the book changes when someone makes a choice that matters. It creates a definition of the term "worldline", which is otherwise unexplained. But if so, then the book just contains what the eye sees (and now I'm wondering how many instances of rule #34 have ended up in there... :LOL:).

I'm pretty sure Luxu hasn't read the book or opened the box.
He knows things he cannot know without having read the book, including the contents of the lost page. He talked about it to Ava. Also, in the secret reports he even writes "The whole Union leader thing was supposed to be by the books", which can be interpreted as a hint about where he got that information.

He's followed the MOM's plan almost religiously at this point over the course of decades.
He knows the final prophecy will become true no matter what, so it is his best interest to follow the plan until that.
 

zander1995

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Brain was probably correct when he suggested that the book changes when someone makes a choice that matters.
I rewatched the scenes, and the names of the Union Leaders weren't even in the book, they were on a piece of paper the Master gave to Ava, so whether the book changes or not, or whether the Master can write whatever he wants is moot in regards to Ava changing the future.
He knows things he cannot know without having read the book, including the contents of the lost page.
Also, in the secret reports he even writes "The whole Union leader thing was supposed to be by the books"
I always assumed the master told him certain things that were in the book but forbade him from reading it lest he change the future.
By the books isn't meant to be taken literally in English. The Japanese is
ユニオンリーダーに関しては、
もっとシンプルな計画だとは思っていたが、
いや、それすらマスターの意志によるものなのか?
筆者不明
With the English being
The whole Union leader thing was supposed to be by the books. Are these new events just another phase in the Master's grand plan?
—Unknown
The Japanese doesn't mention books at all, although it does speak about the plan being simple and easy to follow. This was reflected in the English by using the expression "by the books", implying that they had to go out of their way to deviate from the plan. Luxu is also speculating that the Master might have planned for this to happen, but if he had read the Book of Prophecies he would know for sure.
All it really seems to say is that he read the Lost Page, not the entire book. He was also told by the Master what was in the box, so he wouldn't have to open it to check.
 

LoneFox

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the names of the Union Leaders weren't even in the book, they were on a piece of paper the Master gave to Ava
When Ava gave that paper to Brain, she said, "I put it between the pages on which your fates are written", so there is at least something about them in the book. We don't know if their names are in it, but I assume there is enough information to detect the swap. But now I'm noticing a disconnect: If the union leaders were supposed to stay inside the data world until after the final prophecy becomes true, then how did the eye see them? There must be something wrong in my understanding of either the book or the plan...

Is there an unofficial translation of that secret report somewhere?
 

zander1995

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When Ava gave that paper to Brain, she said, "I put it between the pages on which your fates are written", so there is at least something about them in the book. We don't know if their names are in it, but I assume there is enough information to detect the swap. But now I'm noticing a disconnect: If the union leaders were supposed to stay inside the data world until after the final prophecy becomes true, then how did the eye see them? There must be something wrong in my understanding of either the book or the plan...

Is there an unofficial translation of that secret report somewhere?
Well, yeah, there was definitely something about them in the book. The names are not in it though or the Master wouldn't have needed to give her the paper with the names on it.

Also from my understanding, the stuff going on post-Keyblade War is a bit more complicated than that. There's a real Daybreak Town that the Union Leaders can freely traverse, a Data Daybreak Town to house the players that's sort of overlaid on top of the real Daybreak Town (or at least can affect the real Daybreak Town like the Twilight Town in KH2 could in some ways), and the Data Worlds the players traverse to collect Lux.

The translation of the secret report is perfectly accurate, it just uses a common idiomatic expression to capture Xigbar's character voice and match the meaning of the Japanese.
 

LoneFox

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Well, yeah, there was definitely something about them in the book. The names are not in it though or the Master wouldn't have needed to give her the paper with the names on it.
Good point. I still believe that the book has different set of leaders than the list, but even then, if the names were in the book, Ava would have noticed the difference and started asking questions about it.

There's a real Daybreak Town that the Union Leaders can freely traverse
No, they have been looking for a way out since the glitches made Brain understand that they are still in a data version of Daybreak Town. Also, I'm pretty sure the real town is now in ruins (the "Break" in ReMind) as a consequence of the war.

The translation of the secret report is perfectly accurate, it just uses a common idiomatic expression to capture Xigbar's character voice and match the meaning of the Japanese.
It's not just that one sentence. The report contains a lot of other information as well, and most of it depends on the exact wording...
 

Chie

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In Back Cover/etc. alone I'm pretty sure the intended reading is that there either was no traitor or the traitor was irrelevant. It's a story about how MoM manipulated five people who trusted him into turning against eachother. At the least I find this reading of MoM/the story more interesting than if it was entirely a lore puzzle and MoM really was a super ultra master genius.

As pointed out here there are definitely various possible "ironic" answers to the question, but in the X events themselves I don't think any of them are applicable to the scenario of the five Foretellers being suspicious of eachother.
 

NoWay

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You all are saying many interesting things. I really hope that one day Nomura decides to reveal officially this part of the X lore.
 

LoneFox

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If the union leaders were supposed to stay inside the data world until after the final prophecy becomes true, then how did the eye see them? There must be something wrong in my understanding of either the book or the plan...
I've been thinking about this and I believe I have a solution. Data can be put on a screen, so Luxu can spy on the union leaders by using a computer, perhaps the one in the real Daybreak Town's clock tower. This would also explain the forced connection (unless there already is a better explanation for it in Wreck-it Ralph... Those of you who have seen it, is there?), and it seems to fit very well in MoM's plan and in the story as a whole. The union leaders needed to learn that they are in a data world and start looking for a way out, then Ven would find it and get out to make creation of Vanitas possible. But this was supposed to happen only after the simulation resumes in the modern timeline, and Ava's changes (Lauriam being there instead of Strelitzia) caused them to find it too early.
 

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First, those theories are wrong. We kind of know that Ava did change the future, because why else would they make such a big fuss about it, but let's ignore that for now and consider both possibilities. If she did change the future, then what she did is not in the book, therefore the Master of Masters didn't know about it, so he cannot call her a traitor. On the other hand, if she didn't change anything, then why would it be a big deal? Yes, she did disobey MoM's rules, but so did everyone else. Forming and breaking alliances, spying on each other, trying to take over and become a king, planning to summon Kingdom Hearts...

From that we get one possible answer: All of the foretellers are traitors. They all violated some of the rules, and I think at least two of them actually believe themselves to be the traitor mentioned in the book.

But there is more.

In the biblical stuff (Should we call it satire? It feels a bit too subtle for that word.) MoM represents God and Luxu represents Lucifer, the traitorous angel who started a rebellion and ended up becoming the Devil. Luxu broke an explicit promise (that he gave in Back Cover) by opening the box and reading the book. It seems that in future games the main conflict is going to be between these two. So, obviously Luxu is the traitor.

But there is even more.

These days many smart people think that God is actually the villain of that story. He claims to be absolutely good, but his actions are (at least by modern standards) those of an unquestionably evil being. Lucifer is just pointing out the Truth about this, which is generally the right thing to do. And the same logic applies to MoM and Luxu, think how much death and suffering MoM has caused. This is a good reason to say that the real traitor is actually the Master of Masters himself.

But then there is even better reason.

When MoM talks about his role in the previous keyblade war, he is doing it in a way that intentionally has a double meaning. He doesn't want to lie, but he doesn't want to tell the truth either. He says that "the monsters looked like us", because he was one of them, likely even THE one. He says that other keyblade wielders didn't count, because they were fighting against him. He was on the side of darkness in that conflict! Then he changed sides at some point, becoming a traitor in a very literal sense. Now he is a fanatic of light, deeply ashamed of what he once was, hiding the sigil under his black coat. Some further evidence of all this is in his symbol, where the wings of darkness and light describe his transformation and form the X-shape of the sigil, but it is hidden behind a cross, which represents what he is doing now.

That's three interpretations, all valid in some sense. Of course there may be even more...

So, "Now that you know who the traitor is, can you accept it?"
Wait... the MoM is supposed to be good? I didn't even know that Luxu betrayed him by opening the box and reading the book. I thought MoM told him what was inside the box? When did it get confirmed that a book was inside the black box?

I thought MoM was the new villain, but now I feel so confused. They need to do something to explain the UX plot because I cannot keep up with it.
 

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Wait... the MoM is supposed to be good? I didn't even know that Luxu betrayed him by opening the box and reading the book. I thought MoM told him what was inside the box? When did it get confirmed that a book was inside the black box?
We know too little about MoM right now to categorize him as either good or bad, just that he's kind of a dick lol

We don't know if Luxu opened the box, and we also don't know if he read the Book of Prophecies. He certainly never received one, but he is aware that the events he observes has been recorded in its pages.
Yes, MoM told him what was in the box, but we the audience never learned of its contents.
 

LoneFox

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I didn't even know that Luxu betrayed him by opening the box and reading the book.
Luxu knows the contents of the lost page, as shown in the discussion between him and Ava that lead to the first blow of the war. Where did he get that information?

There are seven copies of the book in existence. Five of them had the page removed before they were given to the foretellers. We saw MoM rip the page off from another book (which has to be the one Brain has now) and give it to Gula. We haven't seen any contact between Luxu and Gula. Therefore the only possible answer seems to be that he read the book that is in the box.

I thought MoM told him what was inside the box?
He did.

When did it get confirmed that a book was inside the black box?
In KH3 by Maleficent. It was considered suspicious back then, because we didn't know where she got the information. But now she is in the real Daybreak Town, will meet Luxu there, and learn about it from him.

I thought MoM was the new villain
He is. He wants to destroy the worlds and replace them with his utopia. Extremists of either side are bad.
 

Idreamaboutcats

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I see a lot of incredibly loaded statements that I expected from Reddit, not here.

It's not explicitly stated as to who is what and if what was expected of Ava really was different or she was dancing to the MoM's tune all along. It's also not known what the true alignment of each foreteller is, as they're described in BC as being "5 Lights". This is a bit of a stretch, but the foreteller medals are upright, so there's that, but in the after credits scene of III, they're black pieces. None of them seems to be wearing an "X" outwardly. In the new group, we only know that Ven doesn't belong and should've never been there because it was explicitly stated, but we still don't know who was the traitor among the MoM and his apprentices.

In KH3 by Maleficent.
When?

It was considered suspicious back then, because we didn't know where she got the information. But now she is in the real Daybreak Town, will meet Luxu there, and learn about it from him.
We don't know that yet. If you're talking about "Darkness", we don't know who that is either, only that they're capable of human speech and might possibly be human.

He is. He wants to destroy the worlds and replace them with his utopia. Extremists of either side are bad.
Again, we don't know that yet. The only thing we have to go on is that his theme is an intentional cacophony of piano key banging, and that he didn't so much as flinch when meeting with YX despite knowing the future and what the latter would do.
 

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There are seven copies of the book in existence. Five of them had the page removed before they were given to the foretellers. We saw MoM rip the page off from another book (which has to be the one Brain has now) and give it to Gula. We haven't seen any contact between Luxu and Gula. Therefore the only possible answer seems to be that he read the book that is in the box.
It's possible the MoM told him. We know from UX that Luxu was told more by the MoM than Back Cover let on (the flashback to their conversation in the Cornerstone of the World's Rebirth scene).
In KH3 by Maleficent. It was considered suspicious back then, because we didn't know where she got the information. But now she is in the real Daybreak Town, will meet Luxu there, and learn about it from him.
We know that's what Maleficent thinks (because of what a 'dingbat in black' said, according to Pete at the end of Olympus). But we can't be sure she is correct or whether she was misled. We should learn some more about why Maleficent thinks that in UX, I think (Nomura said something about it in the KH3 Ultimania).
 

zander1995

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I highly doubt the Book of Prophecies actually is in the box. There'd be no mystery to the box if the solution were that simple.

Or if it is in the box, there's something else the box contains that's the actual mystery.

(I for one think the true Book of Prophecies is hidden in the Land of Departure and is what powered Castle Oblivion)
 

LoneFox

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I see a lot of incredibly loaded statements that I expected from Reddit, not here.

It's not explicitly stated as to who is what and if what was expected of Ava really was different or she was dancing to the MoM's tune all along. It's also not known what the true alignment of each foreteller is, as they're described in BC as being "5 Lights". This is a bit of a stretch, but the foreteller medals are upright, so there's that, but in the after credits scene of III, they're black pieces. None of them seems to be wearing an "X" outwardly. In the new group, we only know that Ven doesn't belong and should've never been there because it was explicitly stated, but we still don't know who was the traitor among the MoM and his apprentices.
We know a lot more than this.

The final chapter has been announced. It signals we now know everything we need to solve the main mysteries of the story, except for what is in the remaining handful of updates before it. This is how mystery stories work, they typically have a point where the author asks the audience to solve it. Our job is to put it all together, and I'm trying to do just that. And it seems I have been quite successful. I do have an understanding that is consistent not only within the story itself, but also with rest of the series and the worldview it is promoting. There are still some unanswered questions (Where is Ava?), and ones with multiple equally plausible answers (What caused the amnesia everyone is suffering from in the modern timeline?), and it's likely that I've got some of the details wrong (I don't claim to be perfect), but I do think that the big picture is correct.

In the scene where she and Pete are digging for what turned out to be Pandora's Box.
 

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In the scene where she and Pete are digging for what turned out to be Pandora's Box.
And you believe her to be correctly informed because...?
 

Idreamaboutcats

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We know a lot more than this.

The final chapter has been announced. It signals we now know everything we need to solve the main mysteries of the story, except for what is in the remaining handful of updates before it. This is how mystery stories work, they typically have a point where the author asks the audience to solve it. Our job is to put it all together, and I'm trying to do just that. And it seems I have been quite successful. I do have an understanding that is consistent not only within the story itself, but also with rest of the series and the worldview it is promoting. There are still some unanswered questions (Where is Ava?), and ones with multiple equally plausible answers (What caused the amnesia everyone is suffering from in the modern timeline?), and it's likely that I've got some of the details wrong (I don't claim to be perfect), but I do think that the big picture is correct.
I respect your posts and opinions, I really do; it's common netiquette, but I have to disagree.

Kingdom Hearts is a wonderful work of fiction that straddles the line between childhood and mature works, but a mystery story it is not. It's a mix of sci-fi and fantasy, mostly fantasy. Van Dine and Knox's rules won't work here by sheer principle of being 100% incompatible. Examples include Luxu being introduced very late in the original browser game, and if we consider his identity as Xigbar, he was still introduced in the middle rather than the start of the Dark Seeker Saga, and the story just screams of supernatural/preternatural agencies at work.

If it needs to be put together, we'd definitely need a lot more clues than what we're getting. If we took everything for its meaning and didn't account for the possibility of misinformation, the clues do point up to a certain someone, but as it is, we're still lacking that one important thing.

In the scene where she and Pete are digging for what turned out to be Pandora's Box.
I don't think I ever heard the word "book" in that scene.

Edit: I stand corrected. Pete said it. Though why it would be in the box, I don't know.
 
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