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Which villain would you want to get redemption?



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Pokie

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Mortimer Mouse is a really left-field yet suitable candidate to take a secondary antagonist position post-Kingdom Hearts III.


Kingdom Hearts 3 will become my GOAT if it would be possible to beat up this trash with Sora's keyblade.
 

MATGSY

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Chernabog's just misunderstood you guys. All he needed was a hug, that's why he always had his arms opened all the time.
 

Cloudberry

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Probably Demyx and Luxord. We don't really know much about these two, would be nice to hear more. Demyx never seemed like a bad guy, just a person who got tangled up with wrong kind of people. Luxord didn't seem that bad either, it seems he was on fairly good terms with Roxas too. I don't feel like he was seriously trying to get rid of Sora since his boss fight in KH II feels more like a minigame (upon losing, we won't get a death screen but just a pouting Sora).

As for Isa / Saix, I wish he and Lea would end up on good terms in some way or another. Be it Saix betraying the baddies and dying protecting his bestie, or returning as a somebody after getting rid of uncle 'Nort. The guy should have a good ending, at least in a way.

I'd like Vanitas to stick around too. Not as a total good guy who spreads happines and joy and flowers around, but as someone who picks fights (without a good reason) with good guys whenever he sees them. Oh dear, did I just say that? Usually that kind of characters annoy me to no end. :'D
 

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Mortimer Mouse is a really left-field yet suitable candidate to take a secondary antagonist position post-Kingdom Hearts III.

Picture it:

A dark portal opens in front of Sora and Mickey. A black hooded figure walks out. "Who are you?" Sora asks, summoning his Keyblade. A look of knowing fear crosses Mickey's face. The hooded figure reaches for the hood, and begins to reveal his face. "Ha-cha-cha."
 

Alpha Baymax

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Kingdom Hearts 3 will become my GOAT if it would be possible to beat up this trash with Sora's keyblade.

If this guy genuinely makes it into Kingdom Hearts III, it'd be the most obscure entry since the reveal of Julius in Dream Drop Distance.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Not sure how much more redemption he really needs. He is more or less 100% a trusted ally at this point. Plus Kairi already forgave him for kidnapping her.

You can make a case about the 100% trusted ally being a case of bad or at least insensitive writing, not only because the "Kairi forgiving him" bit seems to be something that happens behind the scenes (or in a concert snippet) without him actually making any amends to Kairi herself for his shitty actions back then, but also because there are still open issues that are unaddressed like i.e.

- him dragging Xion back to the Organisation multiple times against her will.
- constantly lying to Roxas and trying to keep him in a toxic situation as well.
- literally using the Riku Replica as a pawn to do his dirty work.

I might be forgetting some, but these are those I can come up with on the spot and I can see why some people might still be of the opinion that Axel/Lea "got off too easily" so far.

The KH series is also in general not too great in actually addressing and "unpacking" the consequences and long term effects of bad/harmful actions taken by certain characters in regards to those actually afflicted by those actions.


You say that but you forget that this series shows that everybody has a second chance. I know you have a pretty strong bias towards Ven, so that definitely is coloring your opinion of Vanitas but you are literally shitting on a character that was created to serve with no choice in the matter, experiences endless pain that can only be expressed through the Unversed they send out into the worlds, and has known nothing but the "kindness" of an abusive old man who didn't see him as anything but a tool.
That it comes down to be mostly about Ven when it comes to Vanitas is mostly because there seems to be a certain expectation or bias present that because the latter originally came from the former that there has to be some "special thing" to go on that somehow requires Ven to do more (emotional) labor and be accomodating when that shouldn't matter when looking at deeds done.
He shouldn't have to waste any thought on Vanitas more than i.e. Xion needs to waste any thought on Saix/Isa or Naminé needs to with Marluxia.

This isn't about certainly possible true changes of heart and actual remorse & amends scenarios, hence why I did say in response to Swoosh that it depends on how KH III as a whole tackles the issue, but about having undue expectations from one side of the coin when it is certainly the other side who has to make efforts and change first.

When Swoosh spoke about how there's a lot to forgive she's certainly right and from what the trailers show there is even more added to that pile in KH III itself it needs to be even more properly addressed if it is going to be believable is all I said and the series track record in this regards sadly isn't the best.

I don't treat Vanitas any differently than I treat Saix/Isa, Marluxia or Xigbar and I certainly don't have a special bias against him, but I do not ever give out premature praise for someone exhibiting shitty behaviour and in this regard he's no different to me than those above.
We're not talking about literal mind control here and Vanitas has shown himself that he can go against Xehanort's orders/wishes if he wants to so he can make free choices of his own, and he does choose to be awful as far as we can see.

Not everything all those people do is remotely controlled and brought about by Xehanort, or to quote former Dark Jedi Asajj Ventress from Star Wars "Remember… you always have a choice to be better."

It's one thing to face up to your own terrible behavior and choices, accepting that even though you’d been raised in a pretty awful environment your choices were still your own and then show you regret those choices and behaviour plus actively working to change it.
Considering where Vanitas stands and how he behaves, especially with his own overblown ego and arrogance in place I'm simply having a hard time believing him actually coming to a realization and doing all of the mentioned above.
Not impossible, but hard to believe.

Now, if KH III over its course actually manages to portray that well I can certainly see my opinion and assessment change at the end of it.
I already had this with Riku (I outright hated him in KH 1 because he reminded me of some bullies from my own school life) and DiZ/Ansem the Wise (I disliked him in KH 2 with his "apology" in the finale coming over as "too little, too late" in my book and in 358/2 Days) and yet CoM's Reverse Rebirth and Blank Points/DDD's ending made me change my view on the characters.


Except the trailers are showing this to us and nothing else. We don't know what Vanitas' story will look like in the game beyond what is shown. The trailers only show us what they want us to see, not what is actually happening. And you know better than anybody that Nomura makes his trailers either intentionally misleading or over-the-extreme spoiler-y while still being misleading.
Correct, we don't know and as I said above I am not ruling out anything.
I'm merely highly sceptical and added to Swoosh's statement that there's a lot to forgive that KH III so far looks like there is even more baggage loaded into this specific metaphorical trunk.

Eh, KH has a mixed history in regards to spoilers and misleading stuff in trailers, as BBS and DDD trailers were highly spoiler infested and only misleading in details, not huge plot developments or character arcs.


Nobody said that Ven needs to unconditionally forgive Vanitas. Forgiveness and acceptance can happen in stages and not all at once.
In all honesty I would be up to such a thing taking place, possibly even a whole character arc driven beyond KH III itself for both Ventus and Vanitas with the forgiveness and possibly even acceptance coming gradually in small steps over the course of several games, much like Riku's arc came in steps but while he had to mainly learn and work to forgive himself (as at least Sora and Kairi forgave him pretty quick while his other victims like Jasmine or the Beast never got addressed) Vanitas' arc would be about earning it from one of his victims.
You could even include Aqua in it since they too have bad history together.

If such an arc is fully fleshed out it could become a gem of characterisation for multiple characters.

And yet, do you trust the writing team of the series to actually pull such a feat off successfully?
It would be a highly interesting venture to be sure but I'm afraid I don't trust the abilities of the writing staff too much in this regard.


I have no idea how you've come to this interpretation. Vanitas and Ventus have always been two halves of a whole. Ven's half was much weaker, in fact, because his Darkness was much stronger than the light side of him. It was what Xehanort was constantly trying to bring out of him. Both halves were empty when split apart. Vanitas and Ventus were BOTH empty shells when born, but whereas Ven was fading to his death, Vanitas was growing stronger from the pain and negativity that was growing within him.

Vanitas is exactly what Ven probably would have become if he had allowed the Darkness within him to rise to the surface and you know that.
That is indeed a case of personal interpretation because I never gained any indicator from BBS itself and the Xehanort reports that Ven's half being much weaker was because his Darkness was so much stronger.
On the contrary, there are three points that go against this view and where I came to my interpretation from:

1. Ventus himself was already weakened through the Heartless attacks before so of course he was in a more bad condition and Xehanort notes that
Xehanort Report X said:
Ventus lacked the constitution for such an ordeal
which points towards a general lack of fortitude in Ventus' general overall status rather than because his darkness was so much stronger.
It's no big feat to be stronger than a kid that's already down and then having to endure an attack on what is equal to the core of your being.

2. Vanitas took away more of Ven's heart than he was supposed to again according to Xehanort's own observations of the whole process
Xehanort Report X said:
But Vanitas took too much of Ventus's heart, and from that fracture, I could see the last of Ventus's light was slipping away.
Which when looked at in conjunction with what Xehanort later tells Terra about Vanitas seeking to disrupt and eventually destroy any light he finds makes lots of sense. Vanitas took more than he was supposed to because he could due to Ventus' already weakend state, starting to consume the light the moment he was born.

That's also why he continued to stabilize while Ventus drifted ever further towards oblivion.

3. The symbolism of Ven's cracked Awakening station (which is a representation of one's heart) showing barely a quarter missing which signifys the dark part and the additional part Xehanort insinuates was taken too much from the start.


Being a "good kid" doesn't mean that he didn't have a deep darkness within him or that he was this shining beacon of light for his whole life.
Fair enough, point taken.


We know Ven from UX (barely) and then know him from once he becomes self-aware again in BBS. There is a huge gap between whatever happens that eventually leads him to Xehanort to when we first are acquainted with Ven in BBS. We can't know his character in that huge gap with certainty.
Indeed, another reason why I loathe UX's crappy storytelling and filleritis.

I also have no doubt that Ventus will get a fair share more of traumatic experiences on top of having likely at least partly witnessed the original Keyblade War, possibly similar to the Player Avatar and what will eventually lead to him being "found" by Xehanort but I doubt it'll go hand-in-hand with a huge personality change as Xehanort describes him as "too benign" before the whole splitting issue, which echos Blaine's early assessment in UX.


Jeez, Vanitas is a human being and Darkness is not evil, it is merely how it is used that makes it bad. It's like you've selected to forget this knowledge in the fact of your disdain over Vanitas. He wasn't a tumor. Ven didn't willingly cut Vanitas out himself. Xehanort ripped the Darkness from out of him. Ven didn't want to fall into the Darkness, but he wasn't begging to have it cut out of him.

Vanitas is only evil because he was fostered by Xehanort. Who knows what would have become of him if he had not been manipulated by him.
I think I worded this wrong, sorry.
Generally, a tumor is still your own tissue but warped into something harmful. This is essentially what Xehanort did only difference being that he took that tissue out and then warped it into something harmful.

But I get that the imagery might be ill-chosen here.

You can't expect someone to take in/accept someone/something that has been proven to be harmful to you even if it originally came from yourself.
Which is what "Ventus needs to accept Vanitas" implies to be the case. Objectively spoken, he doesn't need to do anything like this since he's not responsible for any of the shit Xehanort pulled.
What kind of message does it send when the tenor is practically "but thou must accept this person even if they continuously did you harm."?

Correct, and yet that's a typical if-when scenario that doesn't really help with what the actual problem at hand is.
We actually do have an at least partly comparative example at hand though with Roxas who at least mostly had the same starting parameters as Vanitas.
It's not like as if removing/killing Xehanort would suddenly flip a switch like if it was actual mind control, as Vanitas would still be loose and decide to "have fun" by making others miserable and attack people.
Of course that is where one could cut in and try to usher in change somewhat, but I do think this should be done by third party people and not be expected from those, including Aqua and Ven, who already had the brunt of his harmful actions to bear.


I'm certainly not in favor of Vanitas nor do I think he deserves to be absolved of his own actions, but I think you are definitely making him out to be an active participant rather than what he really is: a brainwashed kid who had no option but to turn to his abuser.

People do shitty things and then they learn from them. If Vanitas is irredeemable in KH3, then oh diddlyin' well. I don't think that will be the case, though, and I think Ven will be the first one to forgive him. And after that happens, Vanitas will appear as an anti-hero in the series. He won't be straight-laced, but he won't actively go out of his way to try and murder people or cause havoc and mayhem everywhere he goes.

Anyone who can make own decisions is an active participant, are they not?
Like those who use the "I was just following orders" - excuse in the real world? There is a reason why that doesn't count when one has to stand trial for shitty actions done.
Not that the KH series would ever do that in the first place as so far no one had to actually answer for their actions beyond getting whacked with a Keyblade in a battle anyways.

In order to learn one must actively want to do that though and if it is to be thorough it needs to be voluntary and ideally without expecting a reward in response. The first step would be to actually realize and acknowledge the things you did were shitty/harmful in the first place and then accepting that you yourself are in the wrong and go on from there.
The main question is if Vanitas is actually capable of that sort of introspective and then choose to go a different path, as it would certainly require to take a blow to his considerable ego.
In a way I'm actually looking at Demona from Gargoyles for a comparison as while she did have the ability to realize the things she does are shitty, she does not choose a different path because she doesn't want to face the guilt which has at least partly to do with pride.

I wouldn't exactly call him irredeemable, but I do think there are several issues that should/need to be addressed beforehand in order to make it fully believable and also stay true to the character shown so far.
Going by Ven's general personality that certainly isn't out of the question and of course it is his decision after all. For a while I was a little grumpy back in the 2000s how easily (too easily for my tastes) Sora forgave everything Riku did despite they having a history together since early childhood, but that got compensated eventually by Riku's own efforts I came to highly appreciate.

Maybe it will be the same in Ven's and Vanitas' case initially if it happens as you theorize, but we'll see.

Nonetheless, it's posts and discussions like those which I thoroughly enjoy having here. :D
 

Perkilator

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I’d say Saïx/Isa. Poor guy’s been forced to deal with the loss of a friend and is being used as a puppet for Xehanort. Granted, he was a massive dick in the original Organization XIII, but still.
 

Zettaflare

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Sephiroth your points about Lea keeping secrets from Roxas and forcing Xion back into the organization reminds me of Riku's treatment of Roxas. He did kidnap him in order for him to merge back into Sora. And worse of all he never apologized for it. You have a point about the series not holding up certain character's actions, lol
 

Sephiroth0812

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Sephiroth your points about Lea keeping secrets from Roxas and forcing Xion back into the organization reminds me of Riku's treatment of Roxas. He did kidnap him in order for him to merge back into Sora. And worse of all he never apologized for it. You have a point about the series not holding up certain character's actions, lol

Well duh, you're completely right about this issue.

How Riku treated Roxas is strictly spoken also still an unresolved issue and generally shouldn't be overlooked or swept under the rug, yet people are apparently quick to excuse his actions because it was for the noble cause of waking Sora.
That doesn't make his actions any less wrong though and it should certainly be addressed, but on the other hand one has to keep in mind that Riku and Roxas essentially never truly met again after their battle at memory's skyscraper so there was really not an opportunity to sort this out yet.

I could actually see Roxas being someone to go and punch Riku once "for the shit you pulled on me back then" to get even while Riku certainly wouldn't be too prideful to apologize so there is still a chance that it will get addressed in KH III.
If it isn't addressed and Riku and Roxas are suddenly sort of best buddies as if there never was any bad history between them (like Ienzo and Axel/Lea in DDD for example) that's when one can rightfully complain and the claim that in the KH series certain characters have to never stand up and face consequences for some of their actions holds true.

Speaking of him, it also doesn't look like Ienzo has to answer for any of the shit he pulled while playing Professor Hojo together with Xehanort and the others so far.
 

Megavoltage

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Speaking of him, it also doesn't look like Ienzo has to answer for any of the shit he pulled while playing Professor Hojo together with Xehanort and the others so far.
I'm really curious about what the Final Fantasy crew has to say about the castle denizens screwing so much up. If these former(supposedly) criminals went back to running things I'd want a civil war. Restoration Committee, rise up!
 

Empress Mitsuru

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I want Demyx (assuming he's even still a villain) and larxene to be redeemed. Definitely not Isa/Saix, he works better as a villain.
 
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