What kind were the inhuman experiments that Apprentice Xehanort was doing?



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hemmoheikkinen

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In one of the reports Xehanort descripes that he did some experiments with his test subjects, and that resulted to the subjects heart to collapse:
The experiments caused the test subjects hearts to collapse, including those of the most stalwart. How fragile our hearts are!
What do you think these experiments were in nature? Did he somehow inject darkness into the patients veins, used so machinery, let the already born Heartless devour the still human patients? One way could also be that he used the Goat Keyblade to mess with the patients heart like he did withVentus, but since he seems to summon that when he attacks the other apprentices during DDD's flashback, maybe he did not have access to it yet back then?
 

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Considering what is stated in Ansem Report 2 directly before the snippet you posted here
Ansem Report 2 said:
  • Extract the darkness from a person's heart.
  • Cultivate darkness in a pure heart.
  • Both suppress and amplify the darkness within.
I'd wager it may have involved lots and lots of emotional manipulation and both physical and psychological torture in order to "amplify" and "cultivate" darkness in the hearts of test subjects.
The first of these bullet points practially describes exactly what he did to Ventus four years before BBS while bullet point two may point towards a procedure that happened with both Terra and Riku as Terra's darkness certainly grew over the course of BBS and in regards to Riku one has to keep in mind that this boy's light was once so strong it overlayed Sora's and was what ultimatively led Terra to Destiny Islands.

As is shown throughout all the KH series and also recently in x[chi] with i.e. Avas warnings that dwelling too long on sadness and sorrow beckons Darkness the amount of light and darkness inside a heart is heavily influenced and partially controlled by a beings emotional and mental state.
Xemnas also alludes to this in DDD:
Xemnas said:
Our experiments creating Heartless were attempts to control the mind, and convince it to renounce its sense of self.
From all these I think one can at least partially fathom of what kind these experiments were and why they are considered so heinous.

As for letting "patients" (more like lab rats or "specimen" as Prof. Hojo would say) getting devoured by Heartless, Ansem Report 4 rather blatantly invokes that particular point:
Ansem Report 4 said:
I've provided them both living and nonliving samples. They've responded only to the living. They seem to multiply after absorbing something from the living creatures. Their prey vanishes without a trace.
 

hemmoheikkinen

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I'd wager it may have involved lots and lots of emotional manipulation and both physical and psychological torture in order to "amplify" and "cultivate" darkness in the hearts of test subjects.
Manipulation is sure something Xehanort is good at. He probably just continued Oldnorts ways in his chaind up cells.

The first of these bullet points practially describes exactly what he did to Ventus four years before BBS while bullet point two may point towards a procedure that happened with both Terra and Riku as Terra's darkness certainly grew over the course of BBS and in regards to Riku one has to keep in mind that this boy's light was once so strong it overlayed Sora's and was what ultimatively led Terra to Destiny Islands.
It's intereating that despite losing his memories(if we run on the assumption that Apprenticenort suffered from ammesia) he still ends up doing the same things all over againg. Like Xehanort has locked himself into this sort of loop.

Hmm, turning them into empty shells by transforming the test subjects into Heartless, to get them to shed their indivuality and personality. All of this sounds like a prototype for the brainwash and manipulation that Xemnas had going on with the Org XIII, probably aiming to create a similar state of minds like Saix had.

God, letting the Heartless devour your patient alive while you watch... D: When I thought I had enough reasons already to hate Xehanort.
 

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Hmm, turning them into empty shells by transforming the test subjects into Heartless, to get them to shed their indivuality and personality. All of this sounds like a prototype for the brainwash and manipulation that Xemnas had going on with the Org XIII, probably aiming to create a similar state of minds like Saix had.
This is honestly making it seem more likely that Lea and Isa were definitely captured once they snuck into the castle and used for the experiments.

Ironically, Xemnas didn't do the best job of that with the others. Saix was the most successful attempt at brainwashing one's individuality away, whereas Axel was not so much of a success perhaps due to not getting the full brainwashing experience before losing his heart.

And with the other non-Apprentice members like Larxene and Marluxia, they were much more resistant to Xemnas' indoctrination due to their own ideas for obtaining power.

I imagine if they had more time with Demyx and Luxord, they could have successfully wiped them clean of their personality as Nobodies. It was clear that Demyx was kind of already on that path when he was able to go airhead to emotionless real quick. Luxord was pretty personality-less.

From all these I think one can at least partially fathom of what kind these experiments were and why they are considered so heinous.

As for letting "patients" (more like lab rats or "specimen" as Prof. Hojo would say) getting devoured by Heartless, Ansem Report 4 rather blatantly invokes that particular point:

Ansem Report 4 said:
I've provided them both living and nonliving samples. They've responded only to the living. They seem to multiply after absorbing something from the living creatures. Their prey vanishes without a trace.
It actually astounds me that we rarely discuss the fact that this implies the non-living samples were corpses. Does this mean they murdered people? Did they dig up graves? Or did they find dead/dying people in the underbelly of Radiant Garden? I really need to see this more crime-filled part of Radiant Garden because it has so much intrigue behind it.
 

hemmoheikkinen

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This is honestly making it seem more likely that Lea and Isa were definitely captured once they snuck into the castle and used for the experiments.

Ironically, Xemnas didn't do the best job of that with the others. Saix was the most successful attempt at brainwashing one's individuality away, whereas Axel was not so much of a success perhaps due to not getting the full brainwashing experience before losing his heart.
I know this might be wishful thinking at this point, but I hope we might see how Isa and Lea end to being turned into Nobodies. If the lesser Nobody that was inspired by Marluxia indeed means that he is returning, I hope it meas that we learm more about him and possibly about the other members too.

I guess Axel was also lucky that he got Roxas. By talking with him he created a connection and it probably led him to grow a heart, or at least be more resilent to the brainwashing.

It actually astounds me that we rarely discuss the fact that this implies the non-living samples were corpses. Does this mean they murdered people? Did they dig up graves? Or did they find dead/dying people in the underbelly of Radiant Garden? I really need to see this more crime-filled part of Radiant Garden because it has so much intrigue behind it.
Holy heck, that is pretty dark. D: How on earth I have not really thought about that before. I think it's not past Xehanort to kill people to get samples for his schemes.
I guess the Heartless only respond to the living samples since the heart has probably left the body at that point.
 

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Manipulation is sure something Xehanort is good at. He probably just continued Oldnorts ways in his chaind up cells.



It's intereating that despite losing his memories(if we run on the assumption that Apprenticenort suffered from ammesia) he still ends up doing the same things all over againg. Like Xehanort has locked himself into this sort of loop.

Hmm, turning them into empty shells by transforming the test subjects into Heartless, to get them to shed their indivuality and personality. All of this sounds like a prototype for the brainwash and manipulation that Xemnas had going on with the Org XIII, probably aiming to create a similar state of minds like Saix had.

God, letting the Heartless devour your patient alive while you watch... D: When I thought I had enough reasons already to hate Xehanort.
Not only Xehanort though, remember CoM, KH 2 and Days? Both Zexion/Ienzo and Xaldin/Dilan are shown to be quite decent emotional/mental manipulators as well while Vexen/Even has the same science-focused mind as Xehanort without any moral and ethical compass while Braig is by definition a huge troll who likes to rile people up and toy with their emotions.
The only one of Ansem's apprentices who doesn't fit the description is Lexaeus/Aeleus.

Considering the whole amnesia-issue is more murky than ever I won't dare to make any definitive assumptions on that. The parallels of the "experiments" to Master Xehanort's actions as a sort of "Fallen Keyblade Master" are indeed noteworthy though.

Well yeah, the experiments continued for some time after the apprentices had already become Nobodies and Ansem the Wise was banished. Xigbar notes in one of the extra scenes in KH 2 FM that after Ansem was banished the first thing Xemnas did was breaking the seal on the secret laboratory in order to construct the chamber of repose, but that doesn't rule out that the experiments were continued by what was then already the core group of the Organisation.
Thus Xemnas most likely was highly involved from the start and just extended the whole thing then to the Org members themselves.

It totally fits with Xehanort's personality and modus operandi though. Remember this is the same guy who summoned a bunch of Heartless with his own hands to sic them on an 11/12 year-old Ventus four years before BBS in order to force the kid to give in to the Darkness. It was only when that didn't work that he came up with the extraction stuff.
The scale and scope changed somewhat as did the victims, but at the core Xehanort was and is always doing the same thing and that is treating other hearts (and thus other existences) as garbage to be only used to further his own goals and curiosity. When Sora accused him of "treating hearts like bottles on a shelf" he hit the mark more directly on the spot than he himself might have realized.

It actually astounds me that we rarely discuss the fact that this implies the non-living samples were corpses. Does this mean they murdered people? Did they dig up graves? Or did they find dead/dying people in the underbelly of Radiant Garden? I really need to see this more crime-filled part of Radiant Garden because it has so much intrigue behind it.
Yeeesh, and here was I assuming that when writing about "non-living samples" he actually spoke mostly about objects and items to test how Heartless respond.
It would make sense though to also go into this area as it would be an ultimate consequence of the experiments.

I'd imagine that there might have been test subjects who didn't actually turn into Heartless but nonetheless broke somewhat under the ordeals inflicted on them by Xehanort and the apprentices, resulting in a living "wreck" that could not be used anymore for further experimentation and/or torture.
Xehanort's solution?
"Alright, that one broke and is useless now but still alive...let's throw him/her to the black creatures and see how they react."

This ironically also has a precedence as Xehanort is known to discard "tools" that are broken and he sees no more use for, as is stated in the Chronicles of DDD (and shown in BBS, the action some people actually interpret as Xehanort doing an "empathic" action):
Chronicles: Birth by Sleep said:
Master Xehanort had decided to abandon his pupil Ventus on the Destiny Islands. The boy's heart was fractured--useless.
Then however some people might have not only been broken through the experiments, but outright died without actually turning into a Heartless, and with those Xehanort would have done the same.

Holy heck, that is pretty dark. D: How on earth I have not really thought about that before. I think it's not past Xehanort to kill people to get samples for his schemes.
I guess the Heartless only respond to the living samples since the heart has probably left the body at that point.
I've also not thought about that particular point so far, but as grim as it sounds it makes sense.
 

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they set up a captcha, and refeeshed it whenever the victim reached the last letter so they would submit to darkness
 

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It actually astounds me that we rarely discuss the fact that this implies the non-living samples were corpses. Does this mean they murdered people? Did they dig up graves? Or did they find dead/dying people in the underbelly of Radiant Garden? I really need to see this more crime-filled part of Radiant Garden because it has so much intrigue behind it.
Holy cheese! When I read "non-living samples" I just assumed he was using everyday items and dummies. Corpses have never crossed my mind before.
This series has gotten even darker 0_0

they set up a captcha, and refeeshed it whenever the victim reached the last letter so they would submit to darkness
I can attest to this.
 

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Not only Xehanort though, remember CoM, KH 2 and Days? Both Zexion/Ienzo and Xaldin/Dilan are shown to be quite decent emotional/mental manipulators as well while Vexen/Even has the same science-focused mind as Xehanort without any moral and ethical compass while Braig is by definition a huge troll who likes to rile people up and toy with their emotions.
Yeah, they are. Xaldin planted seeds of doubt into Beasts heart just to turn him into a Nobody. He gave zero dams about others feelings and for example saw love and caring as something disgusting. It is also scary to think how easily Vexen just made a replica and decided to start playing with it`s memories and feelings, probably not seeing it as a human being or something that can have it`s own personality, only as a puppet. if the the memory re-writing sections mentioned in CoM are cannon, than it truly was something horrible. I think it even might not have needed much to get Even aboard Apprenticenort`s experiments. He just probably saw it as an chance to do more science.
Yeah, Braig plays as well with others feelings. Like how he just trolled and teased Saix during one of the meetings. I think it`s interesting that Braig had the guts to even troll Young Xehanort during the new secret ending of Re: Coded.

I'd imagine that there might have been test subjects who didn't actually turn into Heartless but nonetheless broke somewhat under the ordeals inflicted on them by Xehanort and the apprentices, resulting in a living "wreck" that could not be used anymore for further experimentation and/or torture.
Ooh, this is interesting. Maybe all of that emotional stress, psychological and physical torture could have resulted in a fracturing of the subject`s heart, and left them in a similar state as Ventus was after MX tore his heart apart. Maybe it does not always need a direct physical force or Keyblade, just the right amount emotional pressure.

Holy cheese! When I read "non-living samples" I just assumed he was using everyday items and dummies. Corpses have never crossed my mind before.
This series has gotten even darker 0_0
Kingdom Hearts, the series that can have Disney and cheerful moments while casually hinting in a report that the main villain fed dead corpses into monsters to see what it would do. o_o
 

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Holy cheese! When I read "non-living samples" I just assumed he was using everyday items and dummies. Corpses have never crossed my mind before.
This series has gotten even darker 0_0
I'll admit, I had always pictured Terra-Xehanort tossing a Shadow a rock and then making a "Hmmm" face over his notes.
 

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Yeah, they are. Xaldin planted seeds of doubt into Beasts heart just to turn him into a Nobody. He gave zero dams about others feelings and for example saw love and caring as something disgusting. It is also scary to think how easily Vexen just made a replica and decided to start playing with it`s memories and feelings, probably not seeing it as a human being or something that can have it`s own personality, only as a puppet. if the the memory re-writing sections mentioned in CoM are cannon, than it truly was something horrible. I think it even might not have needed much to get Even aboard Apprenticenort`s experiments. He just probably saw it as an chance to do more science.
Yeah, Braig plays as well with others feelings. Like how he just trolled and teased Saix during one of the meetings. I think it`s interesting that Braig had the guts to even troll Young Xehanort during the new secret ending of Re: Coded.



Ooh, this is interesting. Maybe all of that emotional stress, psychological and physical torture could have resulted in a fracturing of the subject`s heart, and left them in a similar state as Ventus was after MX tore his heart apart. Maybe it does not always need a direct physical force or Keyblade, just the right amount emotional pressure.



Kingdom Hearts, the series that can have Disney and cheerful moments while casually hinting in a report that the main villain fed dead corpses into monsters to see what it would do. o_o
These examples are exactly what I was talking about. From these I think one can pretty good deduce how those "experiments" went about in a general sense.

Braig trolling Young Xehanort might have to do partly with YX being not really in the same league as MX (and he has no Keyblade yet, leading to Braig probably feeling he'd be a match for the younger nort if push comes to a shove) and partly with Braig probably not really giving a shit as unlike in BBS when getting all funny on MX got him a Keyblade to the throat in DDD Xigbar calls MX casually an "old coot" and MX doesn't even react to it.

It is possible, in Ventus' case there were the additional factors in place of a) Ven already being weakened from the Heartless MX summoned and b) Vanitas taking more of Ven's heart away (which according to Ven's broken awakening was still less than a quarter) than MX intended.
The factor a) is also reproducible in the experimental environment of the apprentices and while they might not have had a Keyblade at hand, they did have machines and somehow the means to directly access a persons heart. Even in the flashbacks in KH 2 when Mickey talks with Ansem the Wise there are disembodied hearts in some liquid-filled jars in Ansem's study.

That's typical for KH though, many things are just hinted at and may appear only in text form, but once one gets the meaning behind all those the whole series is a lot, lot darker than many casuals and non-fans think it is.
The visuals and more idealistic general outlook can be very deceiving in this regard.

I'll admit, I had always pictured Terra-Xehanort tossing a Shadow a rock and then making a "Hmmm" face over his notes.
And then Braig comes along in usual troll style with an even bigger rock and instead of tossing it he throws it so that the Shadow is squashed flat against the floor or a wall.
Even is about to scold him for messing up the outline of the current experiment and breaking a specimen when the Shadow comes out from under the rock in its actual "shadow" form, leading to Xehanort and Ienzo scribbling notes about "is impervious to damage by physical attacks from thrown objects" while Even just gawks. xD

Then Braig gives one Heartless they dubbed "Mike" a plugged in toaster. Mike goes antennae-all-wiggly and pokes the toaster, but once realizing it isn't alive loses interest only for the toasts to plop out a moment later startling it.
Mike of course also doesn't eat the toasts.
Cue Xehanort and Ienzo noting: "do not eat normal human food."

Braig leaves and forgets to unplug the toaster, leading eventually to a fire inside "Mike's" cell which it as a Heartless of course also survives.
Xehanort and Ienzo note: "Is impervious to normal fire" while Braig notes to never forget unplugging the toaster again, memories of that eventually leading to a specific exchange between Xigbar and Roxas in Days. ;P
 

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These examples are exactly what I was talking about. From these I think one can pretty good deduce how those "experiments" went about in a general sense.
I wonder how most of the members thought about lacking emotions. Since it's hard to feel quilt if you don't have any feelings(or are repeatedly at least told so) it likely changes you. I am interested about persons like Larxene and her human form. Was she sadistic even before turning a Nobody, or did it act as a relief that her emotios would stop nagging at her about the terrible things she had done, and that is why she acts like that in the games. Or maybe she was sadistic and horrible person to begin with. My memory is fuzzy but I think one of the novels touched this issue.

Braig trolling Young Xehanort might have to do partly with YX being not really in the same league as MX (and he has no Keyblade yet, leading to Braig probably feeling he'd be a match for the younger nort if push comes to a shove) and partly with Braig probably not really giving a shit as unlike in BBS when getting all funny on MX got him a Keyblade to the throat in DDD Xigbar calls MX casually an "old coot" and MX doesn't even react to it.
Yeah. I guess there is also the possibility that since YX forgets the things he experinces after he returns to his own time, Braig saw that the perfect opportunity for trolling has appeared. :D

It is possible, in Ventus' case there were the additional factors in place of a) Ven already being weakened from the Heartless MX summoned and b) Vanitas taking more of Ven's heart away (which according to Ven's broken awakening was stillless than a quarter) than MX intended.
The factor a) is also reproducible in the experimental environment of the apprentices and while they might not have had a Keyblade at hand, they did have machines and somehow the means to directly access a persons heart. Even in the flashbacks in KH 2 when Mickey talks with Ansem the Wise there are disembodied hearts in some liquid-filled jars in Ansem's study.
I now imagine that after all the horrible things the apprentices had done they tie the subjects down and watch as one of the machines destroys the patient's heart.

And then Braig comes along in usual troll style with an even bigger rock and instead of tossing it he throws it so that the Shadow is squashed flat against the floor or a wall.
Even is about to scold him for messing up the outline of the current experiment and breaking a specimen when the Shadow comes out from under the rock in its actual "shadow" form, leading to Xehanort and Ienzo scribbling notes about "is impervious to damage by physical attacks from thrown objects" while Even just gawks. xD

Then Braig gives one Heartless they dubbed "Mike" a plugged in toaster. Mike goes antennae-all-wiggly and pokes the toaster, but once realizing it isn't alive loses interest only for the toasts to plop out a moment later startling it.
Mike of course also doesn't eat the toasts.
Cue Xehanort and Ienzo noting: "do not eat normal human food."

Braig leaves and forgets to unplug the toaster, leading eventually to a fire inside "Mike's" cell which it as a Heartless of course also survives.
Xehanort and Ienzo note: "Is impervious to normal fire" while Braig notes to never forget unplugging the toaster again, memories of that eventually leading to a specific exchange between Xigbar and Roxas in Days. ;P
This is now my new headcanon :D
 

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I'm of the belief that the subjects were Isa and Lea and that Isa's rage based character stems from his anger towards what happened to them personally.
 

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These examples are exactly what I was talking about. From these I think one can pretty good deduce how those "experiments" went about in a general sense.

Braig trolling Young Xehanort might have to do partly with YX being not really in the same league as MX (and he has no Keyblade yet, leading to Braig probably feeling he'd be a match for the younger nort if push comes to a shove) and partly with Braig probably not really giving a shit as unlike in BBS when getting all funny on MX got him a Keyblade to the throat in DDD Xigbar calls MX casually an "old coot" and MX doesn't even react to it.

It is possible, in Ventus' case there were the additional factors in place of a) Ven already being weakened from the Heartless MX summoned and b) Vanitas taking more of Ven's heart away (which according to Ven's broken awakening was still less than a quarter) than MX intended.
The factor a) is also reproducible in the experimental environment of the apprentices and while they might not have had a Keyblade at hand, they did have machines and somehow the means to directly access a persons heart. Even in the flashbacks in KH 2 when Mickey talks with Ansem the Wise there are disembodied hearts in some liquid-filled jars in Ansem's study.

That's typical for KH though, many things are just hinted at and may appear only in text form, but once one gets the meaning behind all those the whole series is a lot, lot darker than many casuals and non-fans think it is.
The visuals and more idealistic general outlook can be very deceiving in this regard.



And then Braig comes along in usual troll style with an even bigger rock and instead of tossing it he throws it so that the Shadow is squashed flat against the floor or a wall.
Even is about to scold him for messing up the outline of the current experiment and breaking a specimen when the Shadow comes out from under the rock in its actual "shadow" form, leading to Xehanort and Ienzo scribbling notes about "is impervious to damage by physical attacks from thrown objects" while Even just gawks. xD

Then Braig gives one Heartless they dubbed "Mike" a plugged in toaster. Mike goes antennae-all-wiggly and pokes the toaster, but once realizing it isn't alive loses interest only for the toasts to plop out a moment later startling it.
Mike of course also doesn't eat the toasts.
Cue Xehanort and Ienzo noting: "do not eat normal human food."

Braig leaves and forgets to unplug the toaster, leading eventually to a fire inside "Mike's" cell which it as a Heartless of course also survives.
Xehanort and Ienzo note: "Is impervious to normal fire" while Braig notes to never forget unplugging the toaster again, memories of that eventually leading to a specific exchange between Xigbar and Roxas in Days. ;P
Thanks for the last part, I needed that comic relief mental image in my mind after reading all this. XD For some reason these experiments never really crossed my mind and enacted emotion in me, but reading it all now makes me feel a lot of despair for everyone involved in these experiments... maybe my own heart is awakening after all this time. XD
 
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