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What is a Heart?



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maian

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This is something I'm kind of confused on, because it seems the series can't decide what exactly a heart does. My biggest question is this: Does a heart equal consciousness? We all know that Xehanort came to be after MX transferred his heart into Terra. From what it appears, MX had effectively possessed Terra. Seeing as how he only put his heart into Terra's body, that would imply that one's heart carries their entire consciousness and sense of self. Is that it? If that's the case, what is one's soul? Am I right in saying that Terra's heart transferred to his armor, yet his soul rested in his body? In the secret ending we see Terra and MX talking with each other, and it can be assumed this is their souls communicating. This would also mean there's "two" Terras, the consciousness of his soul, and the consciousness of his heart. If I had to guess, I'd say that the heart dictates control, explaining why MX controls Terra's body. So, what happens when the heart is removed, in the case of a Nobody? I suppose the soul takes control, but without a heart to carry emotion, they're left cold and unfeeling.

Under this logic, can't we assume that Roxas IS Ven? I know that Nomura has stated they are different people, but let's look at the facts. If Roxas obtained Ventus' heart, he obtained his personality and feelings with no memory. So, what carries the memory? The soul? The body? Again, as Terra's heart went into his armor, it would seem the heart carries the memories. So why didn't Roxas have any? Could it be because Ven is asleep, or that he was originally supposed to obtain Sora's? Furthermore, what happens when the sleeping Ven inevitably reunites with his heart? I imagine he'd have Roxas' memories, since it was HIS heart. So even though Ven and Roxas shared different bodies and souls, they might as well be the same person since they shared the same heart. Even if Ven didn't DO the things Roxas did, he's going to remember them, and think he did them right? And if the heart dictates how one acts, it would mean that Ven might as well of been Roxas.

But I could be totally wrong. Uuuugh. From what it seemed pre-BBS, it was:

Body: The vessel that carries out the actions of the heart and soul
Soul: One's being and sense of self
Heart: The emotion and essence

But now, it seems:

Body: The vessel
Soul: One's general existence
Heart: One's entire sense of self, consciousness, emotion, and memories.

I keep thinking of contradictory points and stuff as I type this, and if I keep typing my thoughts, this will go on forever. So please, post your input. In YOUR opinion, what is a heart? Or better, has anything been officially confirmed as to what functions a heart dictates, and what exactly one is?
 

Samhain

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This is something I'm kind of confused on, because it seems the series can't decide what exactly a heart does. My biggest question is this: Does a heart equal consciousness? We all know that Xehanort came to be after MX transferred his heart into Terra. From what it appears, MX had effectively possessed Terra. Seeing as how he only put his heart into Terra's body, that would imply that one's heart carries their entire consciousness and sense of self. Is that it? If that's the case, what is one's soul?
a soul gives life.

its like the nobody
a body and soul
body gives the shape and form
soul gives life

said it in the ansem reports
Am I right in saying that Terra's heart transferred to his armor, yet his soul rested in his body?
sadly no. terras heart was still inside the new being xehanort. the new being xehanort had 2 hearts. terra's and master xehanort's heart. the soul is STILL within terra's body and soul. without a soul in the body you die, period.

mx soul and body is gone.
its said in ansem reports. if ur soul gives away from ur body u automatically die. so if terras soul left the body of terra then mx wouldnt be alive because the body of terra would have been dead due to no life.
In the secret ending we see Terra and MX talking with each other, and it can be assumed this is their souls communicating.
no it was mx heart and xehanort heartttalkin within terras body and soul at the time
This would also mean there's "two" Terras, the consciousness of his soul, and the consciousness of his heart.
technically
If I had to guess, I'd say that the heart dictates control, explaining why MX controls Terra's body. So, what happens when the heart is removed, in the case of a Nobody? I suppose the soul takes control, but without a heart to carry emotion, they're left cold and unfeeling.
yes
 

maian

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I guess I'm just confused as to what a heart gives. We all knew it gave emotion, and with emotion comes darkness, lightness, good, evil, etc. It gives everything somebody NEEDS to truly be alive. With only a body and soul, you just...exist. It's their entire essence, but until BBS, it never seemed that a heart also carried one's identity. For example, look at Heartless and Nobodies. A Heartless is essentially just a heart. It's a heart that's turned into darkness, leaving its body and becoming a monster of its own, which indeed, has no sense of self. Meanwhile, the Nobody remaining is the one that retains the identity, at the cost of their essence. Xemnas' goal in harnessing Kingdom Hearts' power is to obtain a heart, correct? It's implied that if they DID end up getting hearts, they wouldn't get their own back. Or would they? If they got just anyone's heart, assuming it doesn't carry identity, that'd be enough, right? A good heart would make them a good person.

But yes, BBS contradicts this. Because if a heart DIDN'T carry identity, then MX's heart going into Terra wouldn't be possession, it would mean that Terra obtained the evil of MX. So Terra would have MX's personality and dark intentions, but he'd still be Terra. Instead, it seems MX's entire consciousness and being takes control.
 

Ikkin

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I guess I'm just confused as to what a heart gives. We all knew it gave emotion, and with emotion comes darkness, lightness, good, evil, etc. It gives everything somebody NEEDS to truly be alive. With only a body and soul, you just...exist. It's their entire essence, but until BBS, it never seemed that a heart also carried one's identity. For example, look at Heartless and Nobodies. A Heartless is essentially just a heart. It's a heart that's turned into darkness, leaving its body and becoming a monster of its own, which indeed, has no sense of self. Meanwhile, the Nobody remaining is the one that retains the identity, at the cost of their essence. Xemnas' goal in harnessing Kingdom Hearts' power is to obtain a heart, correct? It's implied that if they DID end up getting hearts, they wouldn't get their own back. Or would they? If they got just anyone's heart, assuming it doesn't carry identity, that'd be enough, right? A good heart would make them a good person.

But yes, BBS contradicts this. Because if a heart DIDN'T carry identity, then MX's heart going into Terra wouldn't be possession, it would mean that Terra obtained the evil of MX. So Terra would have MX's personality and dark intentions, but he'd still be Terra. Instead, it seems MX's entire consciousness and being takes control.

BBS doesn't contradict anything. In fact, it matches up quite well with the assumptions it expected its Japanese audience to have - that the heart (kokoro) is the thing that holds the individual's identity, memories, emotions, logical thought, and basically everything we associate with the spirit and the mind as well as the heart.

The problem is, of course, that they never bothered explaining what they were talking about for the US audience, who looks at a word like "heart" and says, "oh, okay, that's the thing that allows you to feel emotions." Which is probably why people look at statements like "Nobodies do not exist" with confusion - why should lacking emotions make you non-existent?

What BBS added, I think, is the suggestion that the heart is able to leave an imprint of itself on whatever vessel it takes. That'd explain both what the Lingering Sentiment is, and why Nobodies are able to act despite not having hearts.
 

Genocide

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The heart is the proof of life.

And I like the thinking behind this.
rep
 

maian

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The heart is the proof of life.

And I like the thinking behind this.
rep

Oh hey, you brought me back into the positives after I was de-repped for calling Cloud and Sephiroth overrated!

BBS doesn't contradict anything. In fact, it matches up quite well with the assumptions it expected its Japanese audience to have - that the heart (kokoro) is the thing that holds the individual's identity, memories, emotions, logical thought, and basically everything we associate with the spirit and the mind as well as the heart.

The problem is, of course, that they never bothered explaining what they were talking about for the US audience, who looks at a word like "heart" and says, "oh, okay, that's the thing that allows you to feel emotions." Which is probably why people look at statements like "Nobodies do not exist" with confusion - why should lacking emotions make you non-existent?

What BBS added, I think, is the suggestion that the heart is able to leave an imprint of itself on whatever vessel it takes. That'd explain both what the Lingering Sentiment is, and why Nobodies are able to act despite not having hearts.

That's a good explanation. I know things are often missed or misunderstood with English translation, which often implies contradiction. But, this still raises some questions for me:

-Why does Roxas not assume Ven's personality and being? Yes, we can argue that he might not have Ven's heart. But, come on. He looks like Ven. He cried. Definite emotion there, so he must have a heart. He doesn't have Sora's heart, and he sure as hell doesn't have Kairi's. It must be Ven's, right? Unless Ven's heart is still within his sleeping body and it's just connected to Sora's through some bond. I don't think any of us understand correctly Sora's heart connecting business, and if that were the case, then it'd still be unexplainable as to why Roxas can show emotion. I'm assuming he got Ven's heart, so why would he only get his sense of emotion?

-What's the point of a soul? It can be argued that one cannot exist without it, but after KH1 and before KH2, Sora is essentially a walking heart. His body and soul became Roxas, and through Kairi's power, his heartless (a corrupted heart) gained physical form. Looks like he did just fine without his soul. The same can be said for Ansem SoD, or any Heartless for that matter, who all seem to be roaming hearts.

-What dictates the control of one's body? Sora's housing two hearts inside of him (at one point, three) and he was always Sora. But apparently, Terra's housing MX AND Master Eraqus' heart. Did he keep his own? I'm confused as to whether it went into LS or not.
 

Ikkin

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-Why does Roxas not assume Ven's personality and being? Yes, we can argue that he might not have Ven's heart. But, come on. He looks like Ven. He cried. Definite emotion there, so he must have a heart. He doesn't have Sora's heart, and he sure as hell doesn't have Kairi's. It must be Ven's, right? Unless Ven's heart is still within his sleeping body and it's just connected to Sora's through some bond. I don't think any of us understand correctly Sora's heart connecting business, and if that were the case, then it'd still be unexplainable as to why Roxas can show emotion. I'm assuming he got Ven's heart, so why would he only get his sense of emotion?

I think the implication with Ven's heart is that it's currently resting inside of Sora's heart. But I'm not so sure that Roxas has Ven's heart - first off, it seems like it would be very bad for Ven if his heart was disconnected from Sora's and left in a body with no heart. Ven's heart being inside Sora's could have influenced Roxas' appearance even if Roxas' heart has another explanation (like Sora actually having a functioning heart).


-What's the point of a soul? It can be argued that one cannot exist without it, but after KH1 and before KH2, Sora is essentially a walking heart. His body and soul became Roxas, and through Kairi's power, his heartless (a corrupted heart) gained physical form. Looks like he did just fine without his soul. The same can be said for Ansem SoD, or any Heartless for that matter, who all seem to be roaming hearts.

The soul seems to be a life-force more than anything. It's needed to sustain a body, and that's about it. A person existing as a heart wouldn't really need it.


-What dictates the control of one's body? Sora's housing two hearts inside of him (at one point, three) and he was always Sora. But apparently, Terra's housing MX AND Master Eraqus' heart. Did he keep his own? I'm confused as to whether it went into LS or not.

If the multiple hearts are in conflict, the one in control is probably determined by who has the stronger heart at the moment. But that's not really applicable in Sora's case, because neither Kairi nor Ven would have been trying to control him to begin with.
 
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