What if Sora and Riku were stuck?

[KingSora1995]

I have no clue if this was posted or not, I am sorry if it was.
Anyways, The ending of KH2 in my opinion was GREAT!
I mean like it kind of tied up everything in a way. Sora and Riku returned home. The worlds are at peace. Organization was gone all that. Then after the credits there was that Mickey letter and we were all probably like what???? and then with the TAV Armor claded scene where i'm sure all of us thought it was Sora Riku and Kairi.
And those two scenes kind of raised more questions to a series that seemed like it was done.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE KH my favorite games of all time and I did not want to end there. But I think they could have handled it differently I suppose.
So as I was saying, they got that Letter From the king and it raised questions about Xeanort, then we got BBS which ending actually made it open for DDD.
But What I think would of also been more interesting was, Keep Sora and Riku away from Destiny Islands a bit more longer. You see, the main point of the quest was to save his friends and return home right? well they did that and DDD has the MoM test and the actual taking down of Xeanort, but i don't what to say more about that. But What If Sora and Riku were to be stuck in the Realm of Darkness? Like Aqua and Ansem the wise? and they did not return home yet? Knowing Sora and Riku, I'm sure they would've found a way out. Now i'm not saying make a whole other side game focusing on them getting out, but have maybe another Door to light scenario but taking them to Yen Sids place instead of home, but make it like a month or two in RoD time. I mean in KH2 its like "Okay Man I give up, Lets stay here and protect the Darkness" "Alright dude oh wait....a Letter! On snap theres a door lets Go!"
Give them at least a little time in there haha.
Anyways can't change it, whats done is done, but what do you guys think?

 

[Virus]

I mean, the story is far from over and anything could happen. Also, DDD is not when they take down Xehanort, but rather when they take their MoM exams. The final battle with Xehanort (and the final battle in the Xehanort Saga) will most likely be in the ever elusive Kingdom Hearts III (begin flaming.)

Nomura even stated himself before BBS came out that he wanted to delve into darker themes. Sora and Riku said that they would be the darkness since the Realm of Light was safe. What I mean is, the story is still ever growing and there's plenty of room for expansion.

 

[gelandporn]

KH2's ending complimented KH1's very well, and brought everything full circle. Some powerful symbolism too: Sora and Riku walking together through the Door to Light rather than shutting the Door to Darkness on opposite sides, Sora and Kairi's hands joining with her good luck charm rather than slipping apart. And then the dialogue between Sora and Riku after the fight with Xemnas has always been my favorite in the series.

If they were to stay in the Realm of Darkness, you would lose a great deal of that symbolism, but I won't lie, the first time I watched the ending, I thought that's what was going to happen.
If that happened, there wouldn't be any closure. Sora's promise to Kairi wouldn't be kept (nor would Roxas and Namine's) and Riku would not be completely redeemed. Yeah, they could have had KH3 or DDD or whatever game that comes after KH2 in an alternate reality be about Riku and Sora escaping the RoD, but that would really be missing the point.

KH1 is supposed to be about setting out on a journey, about departures and making promises. KH2 is supposed to be about the journey back home, about arrival and fulfilling promises. I could go on. KH1 is about the anxiety of the unknown while KH2 is concerned with the apathy toward the familiar, KH1 is about making mistakes and KH2 is about fixing them. And so on. You would lose that complimentary feel if KH2 ended differently.

 

[Th Key of Destny]

I may have liked Sora and Riku to have spent a little more time than they did in the RoD, if only to give more emphasis as to why Aqua was stuck there, and how she is remaining stuck there. (Does her heart not have enough light to open a door?)

KH2's ending complimented KH1's very well, and brought everything full circle. Some powerful symbolism too: Sora and Riku walking together through the Door to Light rather than shutting the Door to Darkness on opposite sides, Sora and Kairi's hands joining with her good luck charm rather than slipping apart. And then the dialogue between Sora and Riku after the fight with Xemnas has always been my favorite in the series.

If they were to stay in the Realm of Darkness, you would lose a great deal of that symbolism, but I won't lie, the first time I watched the ending, I thought that's what was going to happen.
If that happened, there wouldn't be any closure. Sora's promise to Kairi wouldn't be kept (nor would Roxas and Namine's) and Riku would not be completely redeemed. Yeah, they could have had KH3 or DDD or whatever game that comes after KH2 in an alternate reality be about Riku and Sora escaping the RoD, but that would really be missing the point.

KH1 is supposed to be about setting out on a journey, about departures and making promises. KH2 is supposed to be about the journey back home, about arrival and fulfilling promises. I could go on. KH1 is about the anxiety of the unknown while KH2 is concerned with the apathy toward the familiar, KH1 is about making mistakes and KH2 is about fixing them. And so on. You would lose that complimentary feel if KH2 ended differently.

It's great to see that not all well written commentaries about KH2 are about flaming it. Thankyou, it's been such a long time since anyone said something nice about that game.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I love how people always mix up the fact that Sora and Riku weren't even in the RoD, they were on the shore of the realm of in-between overlooking the ocean that separated the Realm of darkness and the realm in-between.

The ocean is already "RoD" but the shore itself is in the realm of in-between, where the final fight with Xemnas took place.

 

[gelandporn]

Yeah, that's right, I think I was slipping into an old mode of thought, though it's always bothered me for quite a few reasons:

- The language Sora and Riku use. "We'll be the darkness," and "The other side- the realm of light is safe now" both evoke the image of the RoD.
- The fact that they wouldn't actually be stuck there. Literally, they could turn around and keep walking, and they'd reach the RoL.
- The symbolism. Nomura said that the the DtL is supposed to represent that "Deep within the darkness, there is light." Wellll, that doesn't entirely hold up if they're actually on the border of the RoD (certainly not deep by any means), does it? Further, could we even say that the DtL appeared in the RoD? When does the RoD end and the RB begin? As soon as they wade into the water? Does that mean they would be trapped in the RoD as soon as they set foot in the water?
- Then, of course, Aqua and Ansem the Wise in BbS. People try to justify it by proposing that the coast on the dark side of the dark sea just happens to look identical to the in-between side, but if that's the case, they did a shitty job of differentiating between the two.

Prior to Director's Secret Report XIII, I had always thought that Sora and Riku had been caught in the middle of TWTNW/the Dragon fading back into darkness, which transports them to the RoD. Still think it makes more sense but, hey, WORD OF GOD Y'ALL.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Yeah, that's right, I think I was slipping into an old mode of thought, though it's always bothered me for quite a few reasons:

- The language Sora and Riku use. "We'll be the darkness," and "The other side- the realm of light is safe now" both evoke the image of the RoD.
- The fact that they wouldn't actually be stuck there. Literally, they could turn around and keep walking, and they'd reach the RoL.
- The symbolism. Nomura said that the the DtL is supposed to represent that "Deep within the darkness, there is light." Wellll, that doesn't entirely hold up if they're actually on the border of the RoD (certainly not deep by any means), does it? Further, could we even say that the DtL appeared in the RoD? When does the RoD end and the RB begin? As soon as they wade into the water? Does that mean they would be trapped in the RoD as soon as they set foot in the water?
- Then, of course, Aqua and Ansem the Wise in BbS. People try to justify it by proposing that the coast on the dark side of the dark sea just happens to look identical to the in-between side, but if that's the case, they did a shitty job of differentiating between the two.

Prior to Director's Secret Report XIII, I had always thought that Sora and Riku had been caught in the middle of TWTNW/the Dragon fading back into darkness, which transports them to the RoD. Still think it makes more sense but, hey, WORD OF GOD Y'ALL.

I agree it is a bit fishy on that regard.

Sora and Riku literally "look" into the darkness all time when they speak since they look at the water.

It is said that the World that never was, while an in-between world is the one closest to the darkness out of all between worlds we know (yet that might be debatable since Keyblade Graveyard was introduced).
I would put them like this (tell me if I forget one)
RoD => TWTNW => Keyblade Graveyard => Castle Oblivion/Land of Departure => Twilight Town => Yen Sid's Tower => RoL.

The DtL would appear over the water, which must be already part of the RoD (the ocean of darkness), it would really be the only way for the sentence to be NOT completely false.
As Nomura also said that shore is "a tip of a world", take your pick.

Yeah, that's the easiest explanation and it still is shaky...geez.
If only in the game itself would be a reasonable clue but since it's in the ending sequence Nomura's words are either proven nor contradicted by the game itself.
We have no higher tier of canon to weigh Nomura's words against and since he's the friggin' main creator who thinks up most of the stuff we have to take it and somehow make it "work".

 

[gelandporn]

I agree it is a bit fishy on that regard.

Sora and Riku literally "look" into the darkness all time when they speak since they look at the water.

It is said that the World that never was, while an in-between world is the one closest to the darkness out of all between worlds we know (yet that might be debatable since Keyblade Graveyard was introduced).
I would put them like this (tell me if I forget one)
RoD => TWTNW => Keyblade Graveyard => Castle Oblivion/Land of Departure => Twilight Town => Yen Sid's Tower => RoL.

Sounds right to me. You forgot Traverse Town, though, which isn't surprising given that Nomura himself forgets about it in the Director's Report. The Secret Ansem Reports confirm that Traverse Town is a world in the Realm Between.
Not sure where I'd place it, though, probably anywhere from the right of the Keyblade Graveyard to the left of Twilight Town.

The DtL would appear over the water, which must be already part of the RoD (the ocean of darkness), it would really be the only way for the sentence to be NOT completely false.
As Nomura also said that shore is "a tip of a world", take your pick.

Yeah, that's the easiest explanation and it still is shaky...geez.
If only in the game itself would be a reasonable clue but since it's in the ending sequence Nomura's words are either proven nor contradicted by the game itself.
We have no higher tier of canon to weigh Nomura's words against and since he's the friggin' main creator who thinks up most of the stuff we have to take it and somehow make it "work".

There's another problem too, when you think about it. Kairi's letter.
I know that it's somewhat unfeasible that it got there as is, but it makes even less sense if Sora and Riku are staring at the border of the RoD. Because that means the letter drifted through the RoD, which is the exact opposite of where the letter should have come from. At least if Sora and Riku were in the RoD, staring out in the direction of the RB, her letter would be coming from the right direction.

I sort of figured that Kairi's letter drifted off into the "Ocean Between" which fills the space between worlds, and found its way to Sora, similar to how Xehanort sent Kairi off to the "oceans of other worlds." Yeah, obviously very deus-ex-machina, but it still makes more sense if Sora and Riku are in the RoD.

The annoying thing is that there is pretty much nothing in the games which suggest that Sora and Riku are in the RB, but plenty to the contrary, yet we're just supposed to go on Nomura's word.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Sounds right to me. You forgot Traverse Town, though, which isn't surprising given that Nomura himself forgets about it in the Director's Report. The Secret Ansem Reports confirm that Traverse Town is a world in the Realm Between.
Not sure where I'd place it, though, probably anywhere from the right of the Keyblade Graveyard to the left of Twilight Town.

Ah, Traverse, lol, yes, poor Traverse gets always forgotten.

The placement-range I have to agree on, makes most sense, or like Terra says:

There's another problem too, when you think about it. Kairi's letter.
I know that it's somewhat unfeasible that it got there as is, but it makes even less sense if Sora and Riku are staring at the border of the RoD. Because that means the letter drifted through the RoD, which is the exact opposite of where the letter should have come from. At least if Sora and Riku were in the RoD, staring out in the direction of the RB, her letter would be coming from the right direction.

I sort of figured that Kairi's letter drifted off into the "Ocean Between" which fills the space between worlds, and found its way to Sora, similar to how Xehanort sent Kairi off to the "oceans of other worlds." Yeah, obviously very deus-ex-machina, but it still makes more sense if Sora and Riku are in the RoD.

The annoying thing is that there is pretty much nothing in the games which suggest that Sora and Riku are in the RB, but plenty to the contrary, yet we're just supposed to go on Nomura's word.

Gaaah, Kairi's stupid letter with the obvious universe-travelling-teleport powers (I want such a bottle too!) *ggg*
Mickey apparently has quite a supply of this kind of bottles, lol.
The only explanation I can think of is that all worlds not only are connected through the same sky, but also the same vast ocean, which ALSO connects the realms. The bottle must have floated through the RoL, somehow entered the rivers/lakes/oceans or whatever the RB has for it floated through there and ended up in the dark ocean as well.
Pretty long journey for such a little deus-ex-bottle...through three realms.

A bottle is a non-living entity so it would have no negative effects, for living beings it most likely has beginning at a certain point. So swimming through it probably would be a bad idea to escape, lol, back luck Aqua and Ansem.
Who knows, maybe Aqua and Ansem will send a letter in a bottle to guide Sora to find them. Could be part of the ending of DDD when they find that bottle, apparently setting up the first task for KH III then "bam", the shocking twist happens and Aqua's bottle suddenly is the least to worry about.
(Damn, already theorizing here)

Is there any sentence or what from Sora or Riku which explicitly say they are in the darkness? Suggestions alone aren't very helpful, but if there is a reasonable right-out hint (a proof would of course even better, but meh) it might be the RoD it would be really the question which is "higher tier"-canon, Nomura's words or the game itself?
Many people say the games and Nomura's words are on an equal canon-level, but what if they contradict each other? I think then the game should have priority, as Nomura can also make a mistake, he's human after all or there could be still a translation error.

 

[billyzanesucks]

I love how people are actually debating the scientific reasoning of the letter ending up there. Probably their bonds drew it to the RB.

I think that the quotes still make sense, since it was such a dark area, and it's so close to the RoD. It's such a small discrepancy anyways that most people wouldn't care.

 

[gelandporn]

Is there any sentence or what from Sora or Riku which explicitly say they are in the darkness? Suggestions alone aren't very helpful, but if there is a reasonable right-out hint (a proof would of course even better, but meh) it might be the RoD it would be really the question which is "higher tier"-canon, Nomura's words or the game itself?
Many people say the games and Nomura's words are on an equal canon-level, but what if they contradict each other? I think then the game should have priority, as Nomura can also make a mistake, he's human after all or there could be still a translation error.

Nah, Riku and Sora never say anything about being in the darkness, just being the darkness. So it's not set in stone.

You should always take the game as the highest canon, I think in most circumstances anyway, followed by the "word of God."
Though there's always the debate of how much merit the author/creator's intentions have. For instance, in Roland Barthe's seminal essay "The Death of the Author," it is argued that the intention/interpretations of the author should not stifle individual interpretation.

In other words, we disregard the word of God. And I think there's plenty of sense in that. So, for instance, I could go on believing that Riku and Sora were in the RoD so long as it does not explicitly contradict the canon presented in the game (ie if we found out later that they weren't, it would invalidate my belief). However, for the purpose of our forum discussions/theories, where evidence is often required, you can't really throw out the word of God. If you make a theory that contradicts what Nomura says, that doesn't automatically make it wrong per se, but it does render it a pretty indefensible point.

So I'm not going to ever go tout about the idea of Riku and Sora in the RoD as if it's the truth. Even if I do think it makes more sense.

I love how people are actually debating the scientific reasoning of the letter ending up there. Probably their bonds drew it to the RB.

I think that the quotes still make sense, since it was such a dark area, and it's so close to the RoD. It's such a small discrepancy anyways that most people wouldn't care.

Why not? This forum pretty much always debates the mundane "scientific" aspects of KH.
Also, of course the ultimate, general explanation is "because of their bonds," but that doesn't mean we can rationalize an irrational explanation.

There doesn't have to be an actual scientific explanation. Like, I'm not going to sit here and say, "HOW DOES A BOTTLE FLOAT TO ANOTHER PLANET?" But, it still has to be internally consistent, it has to have its own logic that can be justifiable to our minds, that can allow us to willingly suspend disbelief.

So saying that Sora and Riku are staring at the RoD implies that the bottle came from the RoD, which really doesn't make sense even within the universe and laws of KH. It's illogical, and saying that "Well it just came by Sora's bond with Kairi" is ignoring the issue. And that's not a good way to approach things. On one hand, you can scrutinize things and look into them too deeply (something we do here frequently, sure). But on the other, people can just brush things off, like "BECAUSE MAGIC" which not only insults your own intelligence but dumbs down the work itself.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I love how people are actually debating the scientific reasoning of the letter ending up there. Probably their bonds drew it to the RB.

Lol, that only shows how crazy we here at KHI are...
But that explanation has a great deal of credibility as well, since the importance of close bonds is stressed through the entire series so far.

I think that the quotes still make sense, since it was such a dark area, and it's so close to the RoD. It's such a small discrepancy anyways that most people wouldn't care.

Indeed, sometimes people really dig too deep into details...*ggg*

 

[gelandporn]

It's not an either-or situation here, as if their bond is what brought the letter to Sora or it drifted there, I thought it was sort of inherent in the very coincidence that it made it to Sora that it must have been through their bond.

Doesn't excuse the process of getting there. Did Kairi send the letter and then it magically poofed there only when Sora was at the Dark Beach? If that's the case, then it was basically floating around aimlessly until that point.

Or we could say that that the letter, like Sora, went on a journey and, yes, it found him through the strength of their bond, much in the same way that Kairi originally gravitated toward Sora.
Again, the whole, "There are many worlds, but they share the same sky" line to me suggests that the letter had been drifting through, as Xehanort calls it, the "Ocean Between." There seems to be a theme in Kingdom Hearts where bodies of water are quite literally the means by which one can find new worlds (I'm reminded of the discover of the Americas as a metaphor). After all, why else would SRK think they could see new worlds just by floating on a raft?

So basically, what I'm saying is, the letter either went nowhere and just appeared to Sora or it made its way to Sora- and either way, it's through his bond with Kairi. Given the subject of her letter, about starting a new journey and about there being one sky, I would think that it would be the latter, which would be much more symbolic (I mean hell, why couldn't it have just popped into his hand if the former).

If you accept the latter, then it's only a matter of asking how it got there- that's it.

 

[billyzanesucks]

I would care a lot about this "issue" - if it mattered. I think the biggest question is why we are talking about the way bottles travel instead of why people can animate pieces of metal. Natural themes like emotions, will and bonds have a large effect on the series. Magic doing miraculous things is common in this or any other series. Just people's beliefs and will can give something power. This sort of over-analysis is what turns people bitter. It's one thing to take a moment to think about it, but another to carry on whole discussions. If you want to use that sort of logic, you can just say (as many others have claimed) that the whole story makes no sense.

 

[gelandporn]

And that's fine if you don't care, but that's generally what we do.

To you, something only warrants discussion if you think it "matters" to the story. To another, it can simply be because the topic is interesting, regardless of its importance. I'd like to point out that, yeah, we have even talked about how the Keyblade operates and I don't see any harm in that.

As for the rest of what you say, I think I already adequately responded:

Why not? This forum pretty much always debates the mundane "scientific" aspects of KH.
Also, of course the ultimate, general explanation is "because of their bonds," but that doesn't mean we can rationalize an irrational explanation.

There doesn't have to be an actual scientific explanation. Like, I'm not going to sit here and say, "HOW DOES A BOTTLE FLOAT TO ANOTHER PLANET?" But, it still has to be internally consistent, it has to have its own logic that can be justifiable to our minds, that can allow us to willingly suspend disbelief.

So saying that Sora and Riku are staring at the RoD implies that the bottle came from the RoD, which really doesn't make sense even within the universe and laws of KH. It's illogical, and saying that "Well it just came by Sora's bond with Kairi" is ignoring the issue. And that's not a good way to approach things. On one hand, you can scrutinize things and look into them too deeply (something we do here frequently, sure). But on the other, people can just brush things off, like "BECAUSE MAGIC" which not only insults your own intelligence but dumbs down the work itself.

When there's magic involved, there is of course a willing suspension of disbelief, but that does not mean that the magic doesn't have to make sense and operate without its own sense of internal logic. As I said, just brushing off inconsistencies is being an apologist and dumbs things down. However, I am not arguing that you should let these inconsistencies consume you.

I'm not going to go off the wall and think KH SUCKS BECAUSE THE BOTTLE DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. I recognize the inconsistency, the illogical nature of it, but I am also aware of how inconsequential it is. As opposed to just brushing it off entirely.
That's why I feel the KH fandom is always polarized into two camps- those who defend its irrationality and ignore the issues and those that make too much of a deal out of them. I don't think I fall into the latter simply because I am discussing the issue out of my own interest in it.

 

[billyzanesucks]

Doesn't matter to the story or the creator himself. He probably barely thought of the actual logistics, so what I'm saying is that you're demanding an explanation from something that has no specific explanation. If you want to make a truth for yourself, go ahead, but I just wanted to get that out there. The reason I brush off these things is because there is no official explanation, and the matter is really just as simple as it is presented. I'm not the type to make up reasons for things, so I accept it as it is. If I may point out, this is a series partially made from Disney themes. There isn't great detail involved, because there is nothing to add. It is as it is. This may sound like an "apologist" tone to you, but this series isn't meant to be as complicated as that. I'm not going to apologize about it, since it wasn't done wrong in the first place.

Again, this is just my perspective, so do as you please from now on.

 

[gelandporn]

Aaaand, like I just said, it doesn't have to matter in order for it to warrant discussion.

If you're not the type to look for a deeper meaning or alternative idea, then I have to wonder (and I'm not saying this to be rude, which I know it sounds) why you would bother to get into this discussion.

I feel like my talk about magic hasn't really gotten through to you so I'm just going to drop it, but don't say something like "Well, it does have Disney themes," because I think that insults those works. There's a reason why I question the nature of the bottle in KH and not, say, the logistics of how Beast is capable of transforming back into a human through love, but I've already said my feelings on the matter.

 

[billyzanesucks]

I was saying that what you're talking about was probably nonexistent. There's not an "actual" answer to the question. Like I said, it's fine if you want to discuss it; I was merely giving information from my perspective.

I really don't understand, but I guess it's just your own preferences.