What do you Think about Xion?

[SogeUsopp114]

xion roxas clone roxas sora nobody

in my opinion xion is awesome, she made roxas into really cool duel wielder and she is awesome, but thats just my opinion ^_^

 

[Davrax]

Xion's a replica of Roxas/Sora, not a nobody at all.
And please type with proper punctuation and initials, it's giving me an eyesore...

Not to be contrary, but

One thing is clear: could these Replicas not be classified as a special sort of Nobody?

Anyway, I like Xion. I thought her story was sad and I'm still a little baffled as to why she's called a Mary Sue.

 

[Blaze217]

I loved Xion, I just didn't like the role she had. I love Xion more than Kairi in so many ways, one of them is becuase of her black hair. I hope Nomura brings here back, it seemed so sad to see her die.

 

[Smile]

I'm still a little baffled as to why she's called a Mary Sue.

The fact she's basically a Good Girl that doesn't try to kill anyone but would rather sacrifice herself, and the fact that due to the male-female ration in the series, her two best friends are two of the series most popular bishies.

 

[Davrax]

The fact she's basically a Good Girl that doesn't try to kill anyone but would rather sacrifice herself, and the fact that due to the male-female ration in the series, her two best friends are two of the series most popular bishies.

Eh, I guess she was basically good. As good as Roxas was. It could be argued that good intentions are the human default, which they both had to revert to, lacking memories.
And they were based on Sora, who always had the best of intention.
I don't remember her balking in her Heartless genocide duties, just worrying that she might not be able to do it.

Sounds like some people are jus jelly.

 

[Urbane]

I consider Xion a pointless plot device, solely. I find it hard to consider her an honest to god character, especially considering the specifics of her character in-game, and every scene she was in... well, it just felt like she was inserted into scenes. It never felt like she had to be there... and she didn't. For the most part, she could have been replaced by other characters, or by nothing at all, and everything would still have made sense. And let's not get started on her character itself... okay, lets. She's got virtually no personality, and spends all her time either angsting or... okay, just angsting, really. And we've certainly got enough of that coming from Roxas, the game's fucking lead. And, of course, characters seem to flock to her just because she's got a vagina, which is really interesting, because she totally doesn't. Now, I'm all for Transgender folks getting more representation in the media, but it really just feels creepy here, seeing as she's based off of Sora, a well-established male lead who we've all become quite accustomed to. And this can work, but here, obviously, it doesn't.

/rant

I am done my poorly executed rant, goodbye.

 

[HeartSeams]

Anyway, I like Xion. I thought her story was sad and I'm still a little baffled as to why she's called a Mary Sue.

She's practically a text-book example of the Black Hole Mary Sue. Where they are added into the narrative, and, like a black hole, they suck up everything in the narrative. Suddenly every single scene is about her, the plot is all about her, if she isn't in a scene then you can bet that a character will be talking about her or lamenting her disappearance or praising her. She's shoe-horned into the plot in a convoluted way, and every character likes her and if they don't like her than we are supposed to hate them (ala Saix). Just being around, she somehow makes other canon characters act differently than they probably would have normally (It's kind of doubtful Riku would be petting her unconscious body and then let her run around for two hundred some days when they KNOW that she is the primary reason that Sora can't wake up). And then, all of the times she touches the plot, she manages to make more of a mess out of it than if she had never been introduced. Sora's memory situation would have made just as much sense if the memories were leaking into just Roxas, but now, they leak into Roxas and then leak into Xion. Why? Because they have to make her important somehow. Roxas can dual wield? Let's shoehorn that into having to do with Xion, too! Xion's death awoke the Keyblade in Roxas! Wow, does that mean he inherited it? No, Roxas not wanting to forget Xion somehow gives him a Keyblade (and then he forgets her anyway, yet still has a Keyblade). Let's also throw Xion into the iconic Deep Dive scene for no reason. Also, let's not have her have any flaws. She shall be perfect! AND SACRIFICIAL FOR THE GREATER GOOD!~ Xion at the end of Days is pretty much the exact same character from the beginning of Days (you know, once she can talk anyway). She doesn't change, she just wangsts a lot in the middle and runs off to Riku only to wangst on his bed instead.

I mean, just the concept "the 14th member of Organization XIII" reeks of a bad mary sue fanfic opportunity. And, that's pretty much what happened. Also, when you consider how Nomura claimed Days was not for Xion, it's clear how much of a black hole she is.

Those are some of the reasons off the top of my head, anyway.

 

[Smile]

makes other canon characters act differently than they probably would have normally

That's up for personal opinion though and is tricky to judge on a black and white basis. You say Riku wouldn't, I say he would due to circumstances. It's tricky.

Also, let's not have her have any flaws. She shall be perfect!

Good Girls don't get any love these days, sadly. Or boys for that matter, either *pats Sora and Xion*

Xion at the end of Days is pretty much the exact same character from the beginning of Days (you know, once she can talk anyway).

Not really. Both her and Roxas matured throughout the entire game. And if Xion was at the end of the game the same character she was at the start, I fail to see why when she met Riku she didn't go "oh yes, let's be done with me".
There was some change there :\

Also, when you consider how Nomura claimed Days was not for Xion, it's clear how much of a black hole she is.

Black Hole, or a lone point of light amongst a large group of characters who lack that much substance to hold a game on their own.
You say because of Xion the Org didn't get insight, I say Xion was introduced because the Org by definition lack insight.

Spoiler Show

And I still prefer Xion's "black holeness" eternally to Kairi's. Sora obsesses over Namine? It's because he loves Kairi. Lets ignore that the biggest SoNami Memory is one that as far as we can tell is a Memory Sora shares with RIKU and that by planting herself in that Memory, Namine replaced RIKU for Sora and SORA for Repliku.
Xion looks like Kairi? It's because Sora LOVES KAIRI and not because, oh, he forgot Kairi completely at the same time Xion got her face. But oh wait doesn't that mean Namine probably wouldn't have had Kairi Memories inside Sora to to manipulate? Hm.
And recently, the novels. Roxas cares about Xion? It's because Sora cares about Kairi. Heaven forbids it might've been the year's worth of spending time with each other. No no, it's because of KAIRI.

At least Xion actually interacts with the characters she "Black Holes" and doesn't rely on other people wearing her face for importance. She relies on her concept and what she even is.

 

[Davrax]

She's practically a text-book example of the Black Hole Mary Sue. Where they are added into the narrative, and, like a black hole, they suck up everything in the narrative. Suddenly every single scene is about her, the plot is all about her, if she isn't in a scene then you can bet that a character will be talking about her or lamenting her disappearance or praising her. She's shoe-horned into the plot in a convoluted way, and every character likes her and if they don't like her than we are supposed to hate them (ala Saix). Just being around, she somehow makes other canon characters act differently than they probably would have normally (It's kind of doubtful Riku would be petting her unconscious body and then let her run around for two hundred some days when they KNOW that she is the primary reason that Sora can't wake up). And then, all of the times she touches the plot, she manages to make more of a mess out of it than if she had never been introduced. Sora's memory situation would have made just as much sense if the memories were leaking into just Roxas, but now, they leak into Roxas and then leak into Xion. Why? Because they have to make her important somehow. Roxas can dual wield? Let's shoehorn that into having to do with Xion, too! Xion's death awoke the Keyblade in Roxas! Wow, does that mean he inherited it? No, Roxas not wanting to forget Xion somehow gives him a Keyblade (and then he forgets her anyway, yet still has a Keyblade). Let's also throw Xion into the iconic Deep Dive scene for no reason. Also, let's not have her have any flaws. She shall be perfect! AND SACRIFICIAL FOR THE GREATER GOOD!~ Xion at the end of Days is pretty much the exact same character from the beginning of Days (you know, once she can talk anyway). She doesn't change, she just wangsts a lot in the middle and runs off to Riku only to wangst on his bed instead.

I mean, just the concept "the 14th member of Organization XIII" reeks of a bad mary sue fanfic opportunity. And, that's pretty much what happened. Also, when you consider how Nomura claimed Days was not for Xion, it's clear how much of a black hole she is.

Those are some of the reasons off the top of my head, anyway.

Goodness, I've been wall'd.

I should have been more clear about what I meant: I know why people consider her a Mary Sue. I've read all the rants and heard all the reasons. All of them.
I just think that they're either grossly exaggerated or just plain flawed. I'm not really in the mood to do a blow-by-blow rebuttal of these arguments, and nobody's mind would be changed anyway (this is the Internet, after all).

Suffice to say that I've heard all the arguments, I just don't find them very compelling.

Sorry, this is horridly off-topic, but something in the last bit Smile posted reminded me of this.
Carry on. >>;

 

[HeartSeams]

Good Girls don't get any love these days, sadly. Or boys for that matter, either *pats Sora and Xion*

I think a character can still be classified as a Good Girl/Boy and still have flaws. No one wants to watch a perfect character, it isn't very interesting.

And if Xion was at the end of the game the same character she was at the start, I fail to see why when she met Riku she didn't go "oh yes, let's be done with me".

Just because she had to pause and think about it doesn't mean she wouldn't have made the same choice as if she was asked earlier on in the game. Basically, if Xion was asked this closer to the beginning, I could still see her coming to the same conclusion as when she is asked near the end of the game.

Black Hole, or a lone point of light amongst a large group of characters who lack that much substance to hold a game on their own.
You say because of Xion the Org didn't get insight, I say Xion was introduced because the Org by definition lack insight.

I know -you- say that, but, you can give insight to any character if you actually try. They could have easily given insight to the Org, with or without Xion, but they didn't. That doesn't mean that they can't have insight, or because of that Xion was put in, it means they didn't even try. And I wasn't saying that, because Xion was put in, the Org didn't get insight, that's not really what I meant. It's just, she's put in, and they make pretty much every single scene be about her. Even outside of the Org there are characters who could have used some insight, but, suddenly it's still about Xion.

Spoiler Show

And I still prefer Xion's "black holeness" eternally to Kairi's. Sora obsesses over Namine? It's because he loves Kairi. Lets ignore that the biggest SoNami Memory is one that as far as we can tell is a Memory Sora shares with RIKU and that by planting herself in that Memory, Namine replaced RIKU for Sora and SORA for Repliku.
Xion looks like Kairi? It's because Sora LOVES KAIRI and not because, oh, he forgot Kairi completely at the same time Xion got her face. But oh wait doesn't that mean Namine probably wouldn't have had Kairi Memories inside Sora to to manipulate? Hm.
And recently, the novels. Roxas cares about Xion? It's because Sora cares about Kairi. Heaven forbids it might've been the year's worth of spending time with each other. No no, it's because of KAIRI.

At least Xion actually interacts with the characters she "Black Holes" and doesn't rely on other people wearing her face for importance. She relies on her concept and what she even is.

well, I wasn't really comparing Xion to Kairi or Nami, I was just thinking about her by herself.

just plain flawed.

Ah, something Xion lacks, flaws.

Suffice to say that I've heard all the arguments, I just don't find them very compelling.

More so than I imagine the reasons why she's awesome.


Personally, I don't mind Xion, but, I acknowledge that there is certainly a lot of basis as to why people think she's a Mary Sue/AuthorInsert or why she should be disliked. I haven't really seen all that many reasons for liking her outside of "because she's better than Kairi and can fight" and "she sacrificed herself"

 

[Smile]

They could have easily given insight to the Org, with or without Xion, but they didn't

And I blame that, again - on the Organization's structure, which eventually force their hands and got them to bring Xion in.
I'm not sure they didn't try because personally, I'm rather content with what the Organization had to offer. Luxord and Demyx got fleshed out personalities. We got Xaldin's story with Beast and some insight on how his mind worked. And they did a good job introducing Saix and Xigbar's stories which we were further exposed to in BBS.
So, really. Their pasts? Not part of Roxas's time in the Organization. Their duties? They actually took Roxas along for some of that. Plot relevance? Given to the ones who mattered.
So. Yeah. I'm kind of content with what they did all around. It's just that most of the Org don't have plot influence on Sora so they wouldn't on his Nobody and Replica either.

Even outside of the Org there are characters who could have used some insight, but, suddenly it's still about Xion.

My problem with this complaint is that it's not like Xion herself is free from the relative lack of insight. The seeming lack of flaws? Well, I don't buy it. We've seen quite a few times in the games that Xion can and does have a short fuse. And insecurity in my book is a flaw, but we never REALLY get to see her go through it on her own without reaching some sort of a conclusion.
What about the time she lost the ability to use a Keyblade? How did she manage with the Organization during Roxas's coma? What happened during that month she "eloped" with Riku? What suddenly got her to yes meet with Roxas despite running away from him the previous day?
It's during those times that get one saying "ok, so it's so much Xion in the game, might as well have this be a Xion game" and accept it that no, they give you Roxas in an emblem mission. Roxas searching through empty worlds. Roxas SITTING ALONE ON TOP OF THE CLOCK TOWER SIGHING IN A MELANCHOLIC MANNER.
So really. Their screen-time priorities are messed all around, even when it regards Xion.
It's just that coupled with how it doesn't seem like they had that much "plot" substance to the rest of the Org, it's felt a lot more with Xion who is, for better or worse, the plot they gave the game, like Namine to CoM.
Only we never got the Reverse-Rebirth scenario to show us some of what we both agree is lacking here.

 

[Davrax]

Ah, something Xion lacks, flaws.

More so than I imagine the reasons why she's awesome.

I'm not exactly sure how she lacks flaws. She has low self esteem and isn't very good at much.

I don't think she's awesome, I think she's an interesting character and her story brightened my Days experience.
Speaking of which, I pretty much knew the plot of Days before I got started (not from reading spoilers, either). I was expecting 358 days' worth of easy predictions, and BEHOLD a new character! I didn't know what the hell her deal was and I loved it.

 

[HeartSeams]

. She isn't very good at much.

She kills many bosses in one hit....

I was expecting 358 days' worth of easy predictions, and BEHOLD a new character! I didn't know what the hell her deal was and I loved it.

They still could have made it unpredictable without having to resort to a brand new character.

Honestly, I think Days would have been a lot better if they focused more on the Ven aspect of things and how the Org dealt with that.

 

[Smile]

She kills many bosses in one hit....

I recall two and both of those she slayed after both she and Roxas had a full battle with.

They still could have made it unpredictable without having to resort to a brand new character.

Um, why?
KH1 - brand new cast.
CoM - Org, Namine and Diz. Key point - Namine.
KH2 - The other half of the Org.
BBS - who ISN'T new?
Days - Xion.

If anything, Days' problem is that they only had ONE new character...
And I still blame it on the Org's own shortcomings. KH2 was lacking with them so people wanted Days to fill in the gaps but it only came to show their flaws more. Though again - I'm satisfied with what they did do with them.

Honestly, I think Days would have been a lot better if they focused more on the Ven aspect of things and how the Org dealt with that.

They kind of did... Xemnas referenced Roxas's "sleep". Xigbar and I think Xemnas too had journal entries about Roxas and Xion's relations to Ven. And of course the Xion-turned-Ven. And looking for the CoW where "the other friend" was.
I don't think they could've expanded more on it as beyond it it's not even BBS territory - it's 3D/KH3 turf.

 

[HeartSeams]

Um, why?

The question isn't "why" but "how".

They kind of did... Xemnas referenced Roxas's "sleep". Xigbar and I think Xemnas too had journal entries about Roxas and Xion's relations to Ven. And of course the Xion-turned-Ven. And looking for the CoW where "the other friend" was.

Those are so minor compared to what could have been.

I don't think they could've expanded more on it as beyond it it's not even BBS territory.

Part of the problem is that Days came out first. I honestly think it would have benefited from coming out after BBS, and being allowed to make more substantial references to it. But alas, we can't really change that.

 

[Davrax]

She kills many bosses in one hit....

In a cutscene. To illustrate a plot point.
I mean, Mickey did the same thing (though I don't think to a boss) and nobody's calling him a Mousie Sue. (Although maybe they should. He is pretty hax.)

They still could have made it unpredictable without having to resort to a brand new character.

That's just a stylistic choice they made. You're making it sound as if having a new character is somehow intrinsically bad, which I don't believe it is.

Honestly, I think Days would have been a lot better if they focused more on the Ven aspect of things and how the Org dealt with that.

Since Xehanort lost his memories, did he even know about that? I don't really see Braig as the type to give him a briefing of current events, especially since I'm certain that many of the metaphysics involved in the events of BBS were lost on him.


I'm not saying that Days didn't have flaws, but I am saying that Xion's existence isn't one of them.

 

[Smile]

Part of the problem is that Days came out first. I honestly think it would have benefited from coming out after BBS, and being allowed to make more substantial references to it. But alas, we can't really change that.

That I do agree with, but as I said above - I don't think it'd have changed Xion's story or her interaction with Axel and Roxas or Riku (though if Axel eventually saw Xion as Ven too in Wonderland they could've shown us her face as we'd have known Ven too - but I don't think that's that big a difference, seeing how it basically says Axel knew Ven and Xigbar already told us Xion/Sora/Roxas were related to Ven).

I'm not saying that Days didn't have flaws, but I am saying that Xion's existence isn't one of them.

<3

 

[HeartSeams]

In a cutscene. To illustrate a plot point.

Yes, and the plot point was "look at this Mary Sue".

I mean, Mickey did the same thing (though I don't think to a boss) and nobody's calling him a Mousie Sue.

No one is calling Xion a Mary Sue because of one thing she does, it's a combination of all of the things that she does that makes her one. Many characters probably have one or two Mary Sue-ish elements to them, but the problem is that Xion is pretty much -only- made of such elements.

That's just a stylistic choice they made. You're making it sound as if having a new character is somehow intrinsically bad, which I don't believe it is.

I wasn't saying it was good or bad, I was making a comment on how you thought Days would be predictable until you saw there was a new character. I was saying they still could have given it unpredictable elements without having to introduce a new character.

Since Xehanort lost his memories, did he even know about that?

What a great thing they could have explored in Days, no?

I'm not saying that Days didn't have flaws, but I am saying that Xion's existence isn't one of them.

Yikes.

 

[Smile]

Yes, and the plot point was "look at this Mary Sue".

I recall two and both of those she slayed after both she and Roxas had a full battle with.

I recall the Darkside and the Agrabah boss. Refresh my memory which other bosses she offed like that?

What a great thing they could have explored in Days, no?

Ironically, such a thing could've reflected back and more on Xion as well. HER looking like Ven to Xemnas. Maybe why he bothered with the Memories, hoping that through her he might be able to tap into Ven inside Roxas. Maybe some ties to the CoW.
It's a flaw in Days, yes, but Xion's affected by it too, which makes me doubt she's the cause.

Really. So many of these Xion threads should be Days threads, if you ask me. Granted Xion's an influential element as she's quite the protagonist, but there's so much more to rant about.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

The fact that the Organization didn't get any depth isn't because they couldn't or they weren't capable of it, as Smile says. Playing CoM, I loved how they felt a huge part of the game and we actually see them all interact with each other privately outside the main character's point of view. Every one of them (except Lexaeus, who's...really a block of wood) got their time. And the key character in the plot, Naminé, barely appeared and wasn't shoved down on us like a boulder while still being integral. Reading the novels, reading the manga, reading what other authors do except the actual official staff themselves makes me realize how unimaginative they are. That's not Organization XIII's fault. The members had loads of potential. I mean, who ever expected Axel to be more than bargained for when first seeing him? Now look. Actually, Xemnas and Roxas alone could have formed the plot. Hell, even the sleeping Ventus. Roxas could have interacted with Riku (not the way it was portrayed with Xion, considering I still think the whole thing to that extent was ridiculous). He could have discovered things himself.

Instead of exploring interesting, original concepts, they chose to go with the idea that everyone and their mother, father, grandmother and ancestors have done: 14th member of the Organization. The only original aspect was that Xion turned out to have a penis due to being a memory clone. Everything else was verbatim. And even then, it doesn't matter because she's portrayed as a girl most of the time.

It made sense when it was revealed that a fangi-erm, Kanemaki was behind it.

What a great thing they could have explored in Days, no?

The fact that Xemnas appeared no more than a minute the entire game still baffles me. Especially since the plot that matters throughout the whole series, really, is...Xehanort. Hence, Xehanort saga. It's him and Sora (until the new Big Bad comes along). I would have liked a lot more Roxas/Xemnas interactions...I would have liked a lot of things in Days, they just didn't happen.