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Politics Welp, America’s screwed



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2 quid is good

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Let's talk about Trump actually - because when I look at it from my perspective, tens of thousands of Pakistani people were killed during drone strikes under the Bush and Obama administration. Under Trump, the number was a fraction of that.

Going by @Phoenix logic, guess I should vote for Trump huh?
 

Phoenix

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Let's talk about Trump actually - because when I look at it from my perspective, tens of thousands of Pakistani people were killed during drone strikes under the Bush and Obama administration. Under Trump, the number was a fraction of that.

Going by @Phoenix logic, guess I should vote for Trump huh?
If that's your read, absolutely you should. My read is that the Abraham Accords led to Hamas panicking around normalisation without recognition, leading to the Oct 7 terrorist attack, leading to the war and genocide in Palestine. Or how Trump's weakness and appeasement of Putin led him to think that the West was weak, leading to a full ground invasion of Ukraine (to which Trump has slowed down weapons transfers), which allowed for the mass kidnapping of Ukranian children, torture camps in Bucha, and the leveling of Mariupol.

You make whatever calculation you need to. My point is that voting for Jill Stein is pointless grandstanding. You know how FPTP works, and you know either Biden or Trump is going to be president during Jan 2025. Doing anything besides voting for those two on the presidential level is just making a point, but you're essentially opting out.
 

Sonofjafar

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Do any of you even care about the fact that Trump could very easily tear down American democracy if he wins and replace it with fascist tyranny that makes everybody suffer? Health care: gone. LABTQIA rights: gone. The right to not have to give birth to a baby you don’t want: even more gone than it is now. Everyone here is thinking about how this election will effect themselves and not how it effects everyone in the country. Nobody’s perfect but at least Biden won’t take away what we already have
 

Phoenix

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Do any of you even care about the fact that Trump could very easily tear down American democracy if he wins and replace it with fascist tyranny that makes everybody suffer? Health care: gone. LABTQIA rights: gone. The right to not have to give birth to a baby you don’t want: even more gone than it is now. Everyone here is thinking about how this election will effect themselves and not how it effects everyone in the country. Nobody’s perfect but at least Biden won’t take away what we already have
Look, Trump is awful and will spend 4 years hurting people, but his power will be limited. There'll be a filibuster in the Senate to prevent most legislation from him, aside from budget reconciliation. The liberal states will do what they did last time; hunker down and bog the federal government down in lawsuits. There'll be resistance throughout the entire country.

The country isn't saved if Biden wins, or doomed if Trump wins. A Biden win is probably a lost Senate anyway, so don't expect any laws for 4 years even in a best case scenario. A Trump win will run into the same blue state blockade that stopped most of his agenda last time. He'll do what he did last time; say dumb shit, and give another trillion dollars to the rich (that people forget because people don't pay attention to the actual legislation Trump passed). That fucking sucks, I can't make that not bitter. But Trump doesn't actually have the ideology of a fascist dictator, he's too narcissistic. You actually need to work pretty hard to implement a fascist regime, and Trump doesn't work, at all. The rank and file love Trump, but the generals despise him, and he hates them back. You can't really overthrow a republic without a coherent military effort. And in the brightside, there's no liberal SC justices that refuse to resign to die on his watch (looking at you, RBG), so the risk of him making SCOTUS even more awful are pretty small.

Is it good that Americans are about to elect a convicted criminal that they kicked out for incompetence? No, it's a fucking indictment on the entire country. But it's actually really hard to overthrow a republic.
 

Launchpad

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Trump can no longer be the ultimate boogeyman when the DNC made absolutely fucking sure that JOE BIDEN was the democratic nominee and then proceeded to flounder and fail miserably to maintain the youth vote they so desperately needed to re-elect the old invalid

Stopping Trump was not more important to the DNC than stopping Sanders, and not more important than gleefully supporting Netanyahu. They can't play the "help us save USA from Trump!" line when it is clearly their fucking election to lose.
 

Phoenix

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Trump can no longer be the ultimate boogeyman when the DNC made absolutely fucking sure that JOE BIDEN was the democratic nominee and then proceeded to flounder and fail miserably to maintain the youth vote they so desperately needed to re-elect the old invalid

Stopping Trump was not more important to the DNC than stopping Sanders, and not more important than gleefully supporting Netanyahu. They can't play the "help us save USA from Trump!" line when it is clearly their fucking election to lose.
This I agree with. The Dems can't have it both ways. If they really think Trump is a fascist plotting to overthrow democracy, they sure as hell ain't acting like it. They're running a candidate that by all indications seems almost certain to lose.

There's no real way of replacing Biden against his consent, but the Senate Dem absolute defense of his candidacy shows me that they prefer to moderately lose this election than to risk a new candidate. It's foolish and selfish and I'm furious.
 

Elysium

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Personally, I don't see any of our recent presidents or candidates as being war criminals outside of the Bush Administration. Even Trump, although he is a wannabe dictator and a Russian-backed traitor intending to harm this country as much as possible, he's not technically a war criminal either? I guess I only associate that term with those who lied to instigate the Iraq War. I don't extend that to Obama, Hillary, Biden, Trump who simply oversaw the war after it had already been started. And to me Biden and the U.S. don't hold any responsibility for Israel's actions. Biden, Harris, and Democrats have all been criticial of Netanyahu even if they have still support Israel generally--because Israel is separate from Netanyahu much like the U.S. was separate from Trump when he was the president here. Hopefully Netanyahu will be replaced by someone more liberal in the election there considering how unpopular he is.

I agree that no politician is a "hero" necessarily, but I don't see most Democrats as being within striking distance morally of even someone like DeSantis, Pence, etc., much less a Trump. My thoughts about Biden though are complicated. I was never really a Biden supporter, to the point I was sort of hoping Biden would flame out in South Carolina back in the 2020 primary so perhaps Buttigieg would get a chance instead. That said, and I know I'm more among the Bernie crowd here, personally I think Biden ended up being a better president than I would have expected. I was really only resigned to being content if he at least ended the Iraq War and fulfilled the infrastructure platform he ran on. For a little while there, the latter didn't seem like it would happen, but it did. I'm also doubtful Democrats would've generally succeeded in the midterms if the nominee hadn't been Biden. Because he's a "safe White guy," the Right hasn't been able manipulate the anti- fill-in-the-blank-identity energy they did with Obama and Hillary which is where all the extreme vitriol of the last decade came from, and Biden being boring allowed Democrats downticket to disassociate themselves from the party leader at the time the way they probably wouldn't have with another candidate that had more charisma and were able to successfully channel people's anger over MAGA antics and Roe being overturned.

Personally, of the candidates out there, my personal favorites are Whitmer and Buttigieg, then Kamala. I definitely see Warnock and Shapiro as having futures, too. Still, I never once believed Biden was going to replaced on the ballot unless he simply chose himself not to run again--and even that would've happened a year or two ago if he was going to, it's not going to happen in the middle of the election. It all seemed more like the stuff out of conservative fever dreams. Even if there had been a big fight in the primaries, my guess is Biden would still have won since he is the standard bearer and a big primary fight would only have lessened any chance he might have in the general. And honestly, Biden being replaced by another Democrat out-of-nowhere would only guarantee a Trump win to me, it would be showing a sign of weakness on the party's part. Kamala is the only one with almost the same level of name recognition as Biden and Trump; I personally think she's underestimated almost as much as Biden has been in 2020 and 2022, but there's no doubt a lot of insiders don't want to take a chance on her. (Which is funny to me, since I think Biden has seemed like he's been fairly genuine in setting her up for 2024 if he gets re-elected, although who knows about her chances even if that all happened.) The truth is Republicans have always played this game of the current Dem president needing to simply move out of the way for somebody else, they did it with both Clinton and Obama, because they know incumbency is a powerful thing.

That's not to say Biden couldn't lose. The underwhelming debate performance and the next month's terrible headlines is definitely going to cause temporary polling dips for him in the short-term. But I expect the election will still turn out whatever way it was going to regardless, the two candidates are too well-known for anyone to be sitting on the fence. I still ultimately think Biden has the edge in his favor, but I wouldn't be shocked at a Trump election either. I mostly try not to worry about it and hope that our institutions would manage to withstand Trump a second time if that happens, it's really all you can do aside from voting. That isn't to downplay the fact that the worst absolutely could happen in the U.S. as much as any other country, the U.S. government isn't uniquely invulnerable, it could happen anywhere and we already know it definitely will be attempted again with Trump there. Hell, everyone knew it would be attempted the *first* time, even though watching it all happen was still surreal.

As for Third Party candidates, the Jill Stein's and all aren't great candidates just because they're mostly unknown and powerless. Even if we weren't a two-party system, I still wouldn't vote for her or RFK. That said, it is nice to dream that we had ranked-choice voting here.
 

Squood!

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Thing I'm worried about the most is the Project 2025 thing
Let's be frank.

If Trump wins, you might as well leave the country.

Canada may be "just as bad" but if he wins it'll literally be better than nothing.

My best friend was practically celebrating when he was found guilty in the NY trial...but I honestly just want to scream at her that she's too naive regarding this garbage. It doesn't matter if he's guilty. He'll evade his sentence and keep on going.

This country should have made it so that if you lose an election at the end of your term, you can't run a second time.
 

2 quid is good

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Well I have an election tomorrow to think about - and with the inevitable Labour victory I'd be sorely disappointed to see anyone on these forums hoist it as a celebration of the Left - It's NOT.

The Labour Party are completely unrecognisable from even 2 years ago, and their rhetoric regarding security and immigration has been almost worse than the Tories.

I don't know who to vote for - I almost wish it was a close thing like it seems to be in America, I would much prefer having a minority or hung parliament that will eventually have to call elections 2-3 years down the line, because handing over an absolute majority to these charlatans is going to absolutely destroy what little functioning state services and personal freedoms we have left. I'm still heavily leaning to spoiling my vote.
 

Sonofjafar

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Let's be frank.

If Trump wins, you might as well leave the country.

Canada may be "just as bad" but if he wins it'll literally be better than nothing.

My best friend was practically celebrating when he was found guilty in the NY trial...but I honestly just want to scream at her that she's too naive regarding this garbage. It doesn't matter if he's guilty. He'll evade his sentence and keep on going.

This country should have made it so that if you lose an election at the end of your term, you can't run a second time.
On the plus side, Biden could use that Supreme Court ruling to just skip the middle man and do to Trump what he plans do to everyone else if he gets the White House (that being throw him in jail without any need for due process).

Note: I am not saying that would be a good thing. I’m just saying he has the opportunity to do so
 

Launchpad

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I hold no delusions that I have any goddamn clue who'd be the best president or what the best outcome would be-- all I'm saying is that the responsibility of a potential Trump 2024 victory lies at the feet of the DNC for their aggressive coordinated push against Sanders in both 2016 and 2020. In 2016 I can understand why they pushed the more disruptive aside in favor of their establishment homegirl (feel free to look into the extent of their meddling in 2016), but they had me FUCKED UP in 2020.

Bernie was knocking Biden's block off in the polls, doing well in every state. Suddenly Warren (after a failed attempt to play a 'Bernie is sexist' angle that went nowhere) drops out. Then Klobuchar and fucking BUTTIGIEG (who was doing quite well) drop out and fully endorse Biden, with Warren not endorsing anyone (even though Bernie's platform was the only platform similar to her platform). Suddenly, the media immediately diverts to a "It's time for Bernie to drop out so we can beat Trump!" angle, and the rest went how it went.

Again, I can't even say if Bernie would have been a good president... But he would have beat Trump handily, and I doubt he'd have any trouble getting re-elected either. All they had to do was run a candidate that could call Trump on his lies in a debate and outperform him on stage. They went with the ONE FUCKING GUY who couldn't. Picking an establishment-pleasing democrat was more important to the DNC than stopping the 'threat' of Donald Trump. So when you're crying yourself to sleep this November over Project 2025 (which is going to be a doozy), remember to thank the DNC, who risked everything despite constantly reminding you that Trump means the death of democracy.
 

Phoenix

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I hold no delusions that I have any goddamn clue who'd be the best president or what the best outcome would be-- all I'm saying is that the responsibility of a potential Trump 2024 victory lies at the feet of the DNC for their aggressive coordinated push against Sanders in both 2016 and 2020. In 2016 I can understand why they pushed the more disruptive aside in favor of their establishment homegirl (feel free to look into the extent of their meddling in 2016), but they had me FUCKED UP in 2020.

Bernie was knocking Biden's block off in the polls, doing well in every state. Suddenly Warren (after a failed attempt to play a 'Bernie is sexist' angle that went nowhere) drops out. Then Klobuchar and fucking BUTTIGIEG (who was doing quite well) drop out and fully endorse Biden, with Warren not endorsing anyone (even though Bernie's platform was the only platform similar to her platform). Suddenly, the media immediately diverts to a "It's time for Bernie to drop out so we can beat Trump!" angle, and the rest went how it went.

Again, I can't even say if Bernie would have been a good president... But he would have beat Trump handily, and I doubt he'd have any trouble getting re-elected either. All they had to do was run a candidate that could call Trump on his lies in a debate and outperform him on stage. They went with the ONE FUCKING GUY who couldn't. Picking an establishment-pleasing democrat was more important to the DNC than stopping the 'threat' of Donald Trump. So when you're crying yourself to sleep this November over Project 2025 (which is going to be a doozy), remember to thank the DNC, who risked everything despite constantly reminding you that Trump means the death of democracy.
Bernie would've had the exact same problem right now; he's old as fuck. He's 82, and would end his term at 86. The party has got to stop having these extremely old men as candidates.
 

Launchpad

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Bernie would've had the exact same problem right now; he's old as fuck. He's 82, and would end his term at 86. The party has got to stop having these extremely old men as candidates.
Biden's biggest problem is the inability to debate due to his age. I promise you that Bernie would not have this issue even at his current age.

I agree that we need to stop it with these ancient candidates
 

Phoenix

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Biden's biggest problem is the inability to debate due to his age. I promise you that Bernie would not have this issue even at his current age.

I agree that we need to stop it with these ancient candidates
But we have absolutely no idea what Bernie will be like in a year. Biden debated Trump just fine 4 years ago. Not perfect by any means, but he wasn't pikachu facing the whole time. For all we know, Bernie will forget his name tomorrow.

It's ridiculous how old these people are. They should be elderly advisors, not presidential candidates!
 

Elysium

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I personally don't believe Bernie would have won re-election this year, mostly because I don't think he would've been elected the first time. The best wins Republicans had in 2020 were in areas where they made hay with "socialist!" scare tactics and leveraged lies and confusion over the DefundThePolice slogan against far left candidates. Anyway, he's as old as both Trump and Biden, as crazy as Trump, and has a had a heart attack before to boot.

Personally, I wouldn't hate if Biden did step down for Harris, but I still doubt him stepping down at all this year would happen. I always believed if he ever did step down for Harris, it would likely be in 2026 after that year's midterms (in the hypothetical he was re-elected) for Harris to have those last two years to build herself on going into 2028.
 

Phoenix

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There's an interview and a NATO summit soon. This is make or break for Biden. If he's not amazing, he has to step aside.
 

Soldier

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Bernie would've had the exact same problem right now; he's old as fuck. He's 82, and would end his term at 86. The party has got to stop having these extremely old men as candidates.
I know very little about politics but I feel the need to mention this story whenever I hear Bernie Sanders, because I think it's relevant.

Back in junior year of high school (2016), my maritime history teacher was so convinced that Trump would lose that election. He had complete undying faith that Bernie Sanders was going to win and that Trump had a snowball's chance in hell of winning, because Bernie acts exactly like his late father-in-law. I doubt he was supposed to be doing that, but as someone who didn't really want ANY candidate to be president (Did we really need another Clinton in the White House or Trump? I would've run if I was of age and I know next to nothing) I feel like I should've stood up and told him to put his money where his mouth is and make a bet: If Trump wins everyone in the class gets +15 points on the next exam, and if he loses I lose 15 points on my next exam. Ultimately I didn't end up doing that, but it probably would've shut him up.

Needless to say, when the results were announced, my teacher entered a depressive state for weeks, which I thought was just as well for bringing politics into a maritime history class.
 
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