Well-Rounded Characters in KH

[Face My Fears]

No not really, the story of birth by sleep wasn’t just about about Xehanort but the Wayfinder trio as well, but mostly Xehanort Terra and Ventus, meanwhile Aqua (like Eraqus) in birth by sleep had a minor role, she was a bystander, you can remove her and the story (mostly) would be the same, only time she was the center focus was in the realm of darkness where the story was no longer about her friends but instead was her story and her struggle and development, she was the least developed personality wise in birth by sleep, she didn’t get personality until 0.2, both terra and Ven in bbs already had personality and had a story and purpose, and even terra who is just as much flat as aqua managed to at least be less bland in bbs cause of his struggles with the darkness and his anger it all felt real, Aqua story arc may have ended but to me it felt like it still going cause of her struggle with the darkness and PTSD, so i won’t say it ended, the only story arc that ended with her is her finding her friends, in bbs Aqua was a walking talking robot that all her motivation were her friends, why is she sad? Cause her friends, why is she mad? Cause her friends, why is she happy? Cause her friends, she does have tiny personality in her in bbs I won’t deny that, however 0.2 is what managed to give her a character development, real emotions and a personality, even if you claim she had them in bbs still it honestly wasn’t obvious to spot them until 0.2.

Edit: even Xion was important in Days and was heavily focused on as much as Roxas, Kairi was involved in the plot of Kh1, namine was involved in Re:chain of memeory, meanwhile Aqua got the raw deal of being the third wheel in birth by sleep until her friends were out of the way, she needed 0.2 to move her away from her friends shadows and make her important (Altho being a waifu did help making her stand out even more then the other two) and finally she started to get a proper character development and story.

Truer words have not been spoken, this is 90% of the reason for her initial popularity. In fact, KHs great character design is probably the largest reason why fans are even attracted to characters in the first place



Except I'm fairly sure that's how it should work? Like in no way is it a good thing that a main character in a game that has had many many hours of screen time and is still static at best. And you say we should be looking at what the characters are doing in the story but is it not the case that the prevalence of autonomous character moments in a story is directly related to how well balanced that character is? I'm not boiling this down to numbers, it's definitely a qualitative thing, I just used the ratio example as a way of simplifying my position, but I guess numbers seem like anathema to these types of discussions.




That's not what I'm saying at all, nobody is saying she should be fun loving or some sora expy, they're just saying she should have showcased some more personality traits than her dogged pursual of her friends. It would not distract at all from the main plot for her to go through some introspection on why she's doing this and maybe have her wondering what Terra or Ven are going through when she sees the aftermath of their visits. Having more, better flashbacks would work in BBS' favour, not against it. When I say I want for such and such character to be well rounded I'm NOT saying they should exhibit every personality trait under the sun, simply that they should walk, talk and groove in a way that's true to the character, and make them feel more realistic. Real people all have their own personalities which kinda dictate how they react to stuff, it's the same for video game characters, except its never really the case here.

I'm not even too sure how to go about the rest of your post because I feel like it's at such a wild tangent off of from where I left off that I can't really go about replying to it without giving it some more thought, but suffice to say I completely disagree that the plot and Aqua being with disney characters did not allow her to show off some more traits.

BbS is Master Xehanort's story. Just because we play as TAV and see the story unfold through their eyes, doesn't mean that the story is theirs. Which is the inherent problem with BbS. TAV exist solely to allow Master Xehanort's story to unfold and build him up as a villian for future games. Terra was created not to be a character, but to explain the Xehanort we saw in KH2 and Ansem/Xemnas. Ven was created to explain how to summon the X-Blade/the real Kingdom Hearts. Aqua was created to be the witness to her friends' demise. When a game is created solely to explain away things, the characters are not going to be interesting or have an opportunity to be fleshed out. So you're right that Aqua was a robot, they were all robots that were forced into positions that Nomura needed them to fulfill BECAUSE of what BbS was meant to be - Master Xehanort's story.

Unlike BbS, Days wasn't made to explain anything storywise for Roxas/Xion. It was simply a behind the scenes look at the year between KH1 and KH2, on the Organization's side. Nothing that happened in that game was necessary for the main plot and it was actually about Roxas' change from new Nobody to someone with a heart and friends, wanting revenge for the pain he suffered.

BbS has no organic change, nor does it start off with a goal for the characters that will actually incite this change. Terra turns to darkness because Nomura needed that to happen to explain everything. Ven/Aqua don't really have a goal that will bring about major change in character... because BbS isn't about them. The only character in that game that actually had a goal was Master Xehanort. If the characters don't have a goal, they can't change. If there's no change, then there's no way to show off character. Flashbacks or exposition is telling us about the characters, but we need to SEE their characters. If they're all trapped as pawns in Nomura's exposition vehicle, there's no way they would get the moments necessary to really show off their character. Which is why 0.2 worked for Aqua. That game wasn't about explaining away anything, it was focusing on Aqua's time in the Realm of Darkness which allowed an natural, introspective look on her feelings - separate from the main plot or her friends.

 

[Absent]

BbS is Master Xehanort's story. Just because we play as TAV and see the story unfold through their eyes, doesn't mean that the story is theirs. Which is the inherent problem with BbS. TAV exist solely to allow Master Xehanort's story to unfold and build him up as a villian for future games. Terra was created not to be a character, but to explain the Xehanort we saw in KH2 and Ansem/Xemnas. Ven was created to explain how to summon the X-Blade/the real Kingdom Hearts. Aqua was created to be the witness to her friends' demise. When a game is created solely to explain away things, the characters are not going to be interesting or have an opportunity to be fleshed out. So you're right that Aqua was a robot, they were all robots that were forced into positions that Nomura needed them to fulfill BECAUSE of what BbS was meant to be - Master Xehanort's story.

Bingo.

 

[2 quid is good]

BbS is Master Xehanort's story. Just because we play as TAV and see the story unfold through their eyes, doesn't mean that the story is theirs. Which is the inherent problem with BbS. TAV exist solely to allow Master Xehanort's story to unfold and build him up as a villian for future games. Terra was created not to be a character, but to explain the Xehanort we saw in KH2 and Ansem/Xemnas. Ven was created to explain how to summon the X-Blade/the real Kingdom Hearts. Aqua was created to be the witness to her friends' demise. When a game is created solely to explain away things, the characters are not going to be interesting or have an opportunity to be fleshed out. So you're right that Aqua was a robot, they were all robots that were forced into positions that Nomura needed them to fulfill BECAUSE of what BbS was meant to be - Master Xehanort's story.

Unlike BbS, Days wasn't made to explain anything storywise for Roxas/Xion. It was simply a behind the scenes look at the year between KH1 and KH2, on the Organization's side. Nothing that happened in that game was necessary for the main plot and it was actually about Roxas' change from new Nobody to someone with a heart and friends, wanting revenge for the pain he suffered.

BbS has no organic change, nor does it start off with a goal for the characters that will actually incite this change. Terra turns to darkness because Nomura needed that to happen to explain everything. Ven/Aqua don't really have a goal that will bring about major change in character... because BbS isn't about them. The only character in that game that actually had a goal was Master Xehanort. If the characters don't have a goal, they can't change. If there's no change, then there's no way to show off character. Flashbacks or exposition is telling us about the characters, but we need to SEE their characters. If they're all trapped as pawns in Nomura's exposition vehicle, there's no way they would get the moments necessary to really show off their character. Which is why 0.2 worked for Aqua. That game wasn't about explaining away anything, it was focusing on Aqua's time in the Realm of Darkness which allowed an natural, introspective look on her feelings - separate from the main plot or her friends.

Yeah I'm not... disagreeing with ANY of that, but the topic was talking about well rounded characters in KH so that's what I talked about like, I'm well aware of BBS' issues vis-a-vis it's characters, but the fact that it exists in the way it does doesn't excuse the poor showings of characters from the game. Like, you just keep telling me why Aqua is the way she is but I already mentioned that in my posts but in a much more succinct way. I'm just not sure why we're talking about BBS' failings here when the topic is more about how those characters *could* have been improved.

 

[Face My Fears]

Yeah I'm not... disagreeing with ANY of that, but the topic was talking about well rounded characters in KH so that's what I talked about like, I'm well aware of BBS' issues vis-a-vis it's characters, but the fact that it exists in the way it does doesn't excuse the poor showings of characters from the game. Like, you just keep telling me why Aqua is the way she is but I already mentioned that in my posts but in a much more succinct way. I'm just not sure why we're talking about BBS' failings here when the topic is more about how those characters *could* have been improved.

The solution to improving them was to change the narrative of BbS a bit. Flip it from Master Xehanort's story to TAV's. I would have Eraqus entrust Aqua alone with his suspicions about Master Xehanort. Aqua can maybe slip something to Terra by accident, which then prompts him to take matters into his own hands and he goes off on his own (this begins his turn to darkness because he feels left out from the group and weak). Aqua goes after Terra, but also is actively searching for Master Xehanort to confront him. After Terra and Aqua leave Land of Departure, Vanitas can insult Ven and make him feel like a child and excluded from the "adult matters", which prompts Ven to run off.

In the Disney worlds, Terra would be exposed to darkness that reinforces his abandonment and weakness (like the Evil Queen's vanity or relating to Evil Stepmother for "taking care of" Cinderella and including her in the family from her point of view). Aqua would be confronted with moments where she has to question what is the truth (like the Evil Stepmother actually "caring" for Cinderella), which then makes her question whether she can trust Eraqus or if he's using her to destroy Master Xehanort. Ven will use the Disney visits to play "hero" since in his mind that is what it means to be an "adult", so he can fit in with Terra/Aqua.

At the end of the game, the characters would have changed. Terra would come to the conclusion that Eraqus is misguided and that he deserved to be a keyblade master and maybe even want to dismantle the whole "Mark of Mastery", which will make his turn to darkness his own active choice. Aqua would learn to trust her heart (actually have her use "may your heart be your guiding key" here) and believe that Master Xehanort is wrong and must be stopped. Terra and Aqua then look to Ven - who in his mind he's an "adult" after all his travels - and he has to make a choice between them and he goes with Aqua... which then prompts Terra to go complete darkness mode (and easily possessed by Master Xehanort).

Aqua will feel like she let down Terra and feel more obligated to stop Master Xehanort. Vanitas will reveal that he was toying with Ven's mind to get him to unlock his true light potential to allow the real Kingdom Hearts/X-Blade to be created. So Nomura gets what he wanted, but the characters don't feel like robots that were built just to fill in a storyline blank.