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Wasn't it kinda stupid to throw Ventus off the cliff?



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Veevee

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Title say it all. I never understood why Xehanort would do that - yes, he counted on Aqua catching her friend but he couldn't be sure of that and in the worst case, we would've had Ventus scattered all over the place so no x-blade for him. It seriously looks damn cool and dramatic and stuff, but for a calculating man like Xehanort, wasn't this kinda reckless? I know he wanted to "fuel the anger" in Terra but he was already pissed enough having been tricked into the master-killing scheme and harassing Ventus so no real need for that. What would he have done if Ventus had shattered?
 

DarkGrey Heroine

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Maybe the armor and all could have protected Ven from the deadly fall, given how without armor people in KH can jump extremely high, fall and still land on their feet effortlessly and harmlessly. I think about how gracefully Aqua lands every time, no matter the height, in KH 0.2, so I imagine that with armor one's resistance would increase tremendously and thus, by video game logic, with armor one would survive the fall, even under a status effect like the nortfreeze. Iron Man would call bullshit on this though.
So yeah, maybe Xehanort knew Ven would still survive.
 

Hakan Xatos

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If you take into account Sora falling off really tall places and being totally fine like the Tree House in Deep Jungle then it's pretty evident that falling has no consequences in KH. Also if Ventus had died for some reason I'm pretty sure Xehanort wouldn't have cared because he'd have another backup plan. It'd just be a small inconvenience for him.
 

Lonbilly

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Considering the distances and harsh landings everyone has endured in this series and still lived, some even happening in that fight, Ventus would have probably been fine. But even if he hadn't been...

Also if Ventus had died for some reason I'm pretty sure Xehanort wouldn't have cared because he'd have another backup plan. It'd just be a small inconvenience for him.
This. Xehanort stated the BbS attempt was his impatient "I don't wanna wait for the 13v7 creation ceremony" and thus, should Ventus have died, Xehanort would have probably been annoyed or upset but definitely still able to move forward with his plan. Terra would still use the darkness (though if Ven died, he probably would have succumbed instead of channel it before Xehanort could take over). Aqua was also a backup in case Ven did die - dunno if Xehanort ever confirmed that, but Vanitas straight up considered her one.
 

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Xehanort seemed able to (almost) always predict how much can a character do and endure better than the characters themselves. I'm sure he knew to hold back just enough and was just having a field day.

Also yes, (for how dumb and nonsensical it might be) Nomura confirmed Aqua was supposed to be the "backup" in case Ventus wasn't gonna make it: so he wasn't completely irreplaceable.
 

Hakan Xatos

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Xehanort seemed able to (almost) always predict how much can a character do and endure better than the characters themselves. I'm sure he knew to hold back just enough and was just having a field day.
Yeah this is true because Ven wasn't totally frozen solid which I assume Xehanort could've done. This is evidenced by Ven able to move his eyes and later his mouth. So instead of shattering like he was dipped in liquid nitrogen it probably would have been more like a pound of beef falling out of the freezer and hitting like a rock.

Also yes, (for how dumb and nonsensical it might be) Nomura confirmed Aqua was supposed to be the "backup" in case Ventus wasn't gonna make it: so he wasn't completely irreplaceable.
Then Xehanort reveals that Sora was the "backup plan" for Riku in DDD. Seriously, no matter what this guy does he works around it like it's nothing :p
 

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Yeah dropping your X-Blade half to his possible death was a pretty stupid idea. I don't think there's a logical explanation for it either, it's just something that happened because it happening in that KH2 secret ending, where villainous motivations and roles of characters had yet to be defined. Overt, dramatic display of villainous sadism is overt and dramatic.
 

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Yeah dropping your X-Blade half to his possible death was a pretty stupid idea. I don't think there's a logical explanation for it either, it's just something that happened because it happening in that KH2 secret ending, where villainous motivations and roles of characters had yet to be defined. Overt, dramatic display of villainous sadism is overt and dramatic.
While I agree with all of the other explanations because they make sense, I like this one the best. *lol*
I didn't know Aqua was the backup plan - I always figured Nort wanted Ventus and Vanitas because they were pure light and pure dark ... well, I should've known better if I rethink it now because I doubt that all of the seven guardians will meet the pure light condition. Still interesting that that Aqua was intended that way.
 

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Uh, where again did Nomura say that Aqua was the backup plan? Honest question, cause I didn't know about that.

In any case, it was still stupid, because the thing was: The powers clashing had to be equal (at least thats what the lore told); that's why they used the Unversed to train Ventus. But Aqua was quite obviously on a way higher level than him so there goes the power equality imo?
 

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Uh, where again did Nomura say that Aqua was the backup plan? Honest question, cause I didn't know about that.

In any case, it was still stupid, because the thing was: The powers clashing had to be equal (at least thats what the lore told); that's why they used the Unversed to train Ventus. But Aqua was quite obviously on a way higher level than him so there goes the power equality imo?
BbS Ultimania, Plot Mysteries.

[FONT=&quot]-- When Vanitas calls Aqua a "spare", is he talking about raw materials for making a X-blade?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Nomura: Yes. She was a "spare" prepared in case Ventus did not survive the fusion process with Vanitas. Aqua was recognised by Eraqus as a legitimate Keyblade Master who viewed light as absolute, and holds a strong heart of light. So if Ventus were to fail she could have been used as material for the X-blade.[/FONT]
It IS dumb, for the reasons you stated AND because Aqua has Darkness in her heart, no matter how little of it. So much for the "pure heart of Light vs pure heart of Darkness"...
 

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Uh, where again did Nomura say that Aqua was the backup plan? Honest question, cause I didn't know about that.

In any case, it was still stupid, because the thing was: The powers clashing had to be equal (at least thats what the lore told); that's why they used the Unversed to train Ventus. But Aqua was quite obviously on a way higher level than him so there goes the power equality imo?
I don't know about Nomura (and I'm too lazy to dig through interviews) but most people infer that Aqua was plan B when Vanitas ran off after fighting her saying "never hurts to have a backup."
Obviously, Aqua wouldn't be the ideal choice, but Xehanort was trying to make a X-blade the convenient way, not the right way. If something happened to Ventus, he could use Aqua. If Aqua couldn't be used to create a X-Blade with Vanitas, then Xehanort could just do it the hard way, ie collecting 20 components for a clash instead of just two.
 

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I don't know about Nomura (and I'm too lazy to dig through interviews) but most people infer that Aqua was plan B when Vanitas ran off after fighting her saying "never hurts to have a backup."
Obviously, Aqua wouldn't be the ideal choice, but Xehanort was trying to make a X-blade the convenient way, not the right way. If something happened to Ventus, he could use Aqua. If Aqua couldn't be used to create a X-Blade with Vanitas, then Xehanort could just do it the hard way, ie collecting 20 components for a clash instead of just two.
I mean I knew it was stated ingame, just didn't knew Nomura actually confirmed it. Cause, even if Vanitas says "yeah you're the backup, lol", that can also just be foolish talk and not actually a "canon plan".

Then again yeah, how much does one plan mean to Geezernort if he has 15...
 

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Honestly, prior to the interview confirmation I always assumed the "backup" was Vanitas' own thing.
I mean, he didn't seem that keen on Xehanort's plan (considered he tried to 86 Ventus) and he complimented Aqua for how she fought: I thought he meant "backup" as in a backup fighter for his amusement, or something.

But that might just be my twisted fanfic-shipper mind.

The thing is Xehanort outrightly states he needs one PURE heart of Light and one PURE heart of Darkness: Aqua is neither.
 

BlackOsprey

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The thing is Xehanort outrightly states he needs one PURE heart of Light and one PURE heart of Darkness: Aqua is neither.
Meh, I'm not sure how much this actually means given how much Xehanort's gone back and contradicted himself... I mean, the "right" way now is to smash 7 lights and 13 darknesses together, even if the components of said light and darkness aren't totally pure themselves. I think what he was trying to go for was light and darkness of equal power. Splitting the same heart into pure light and pure darkness might've made it easier to get the powers to be equal.
 

Not Ienzo

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I'm honestly not sure at all myself, but I think Vanitas was made because Ventus at the time wasn't strong enough and wouldn't give into the darkness. And Aqua (probably) has lots of light in her heart, and she's a strong Keyblade wielder, so I guess her being a backup would make sense?
 

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Meh, I'm not sure how much this actually means given how much Xehanort's gone back and contradicted himself... I mean, the "right" way now is to smash 7 lights and 13 darknesses together, even if the components of said light and darkness aren't totally pure themselves. I think what he was trying to go for was light and darkness of equal power. Splitting the same heart into pure light and pure darkness might've made it easier to get the powers to be equal.
It makes se- it is bearable after DDD, when "Xehanort has more backup plans" "That's not how the X-Blade works" became legit reasons for retconning the events.
It doesn't make sense in BbS at the time. It literally goes against what Xehanort says. A character like Xehanort contradicting himself is terrible, because he's clearly playing the role of narrating and explaning things to the audience. He can be morally questionable, but I have to believe why he did what did.
It's like if the next game opens up with Nomura stating "Ah, Xehanort was wrong, you don't need to forge the X-Blade to open Kingdom Hearts, you just need the black box."

I'm honestly not sure at all myself, but I think Vanitas was made because Ventus at the time wasn't strong enough and wouldn't give into the darkness. And Aqua (probably) has lots of light in her heart, and she's a strong Keyblade wielder, so I guess her being a backup would make sense?
Strenght alone wasn't enough according to the original recipe.

Report 7
It is only forged when two hearts of equal power intersect--one heart of pure darkness, one heart of pure light.

Report 10
Ventus' heart of pure light and Vanitas's heart of pure darkness...If both could be made strong enough to one day clash, I know the χ-blade would be forged.


I'd say that's explicit enough. Also, in Report 12 Xehanort writes: "Terra and Aqua... They will be easy now to lure into the outside world. But Ventus! I will get nowhere without him."
That's not something one who has Aqua as a backup on the ready would write. The whole thing is weird. Either this is yet another of Nomura's terrible communicating skills, like when we should've somehow guessed that the Young Xehanort fight in DDD was actually Master Xehanort possessing Young and using No Name with a hourglass as a keyholder, or there were changes in the story and the Xehanort Reports remained with the original draft or something.

It's not even the first time it has happened, the journal states that the boss Unversed in Cinderella's world were created by Lady Tremaine, and in the japanese version the Mirror gets turned into an Unversed just by the Queen's energy.
Either there's missing information here too, or this kinda goes against Vanitas being the Unversed's creator and sole master.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Meh, I'm not sure how much this actually means given how much Xehanort's gone back and contradicted himself... I mean, the "right" way now is to smash 7 lights and 13 darknesses together, even if the components of said light and darkness aren't totally pure themselves. I think what he was trying to go for was light and darkness of equal power. Splitting the same heart into pure light and pure darkness might've made it easier to get the powers to be equal.
I'd like to throw into the puddle that Xehanort may not necessarily "contradicting" himself when we take into account that Xehanort throughout the entire series has shown that he likes to just experiment around.
He creates a certain starting scenario and then leans back and watches how it turns out.
If it goes well and is a success: "Yay, goals reached, Kingdom Hearts here I come."
If it fails: "Lol, too bad for the pawns involved, lets look into the next possible variant that may work."

So when he speaks about the "pure light" and "pure dark" in the BBS Reports, he's talking so confidently about it because at current time and at the time when he wrote that particular report, he's convinced that this may be the variant with the highest chance to succeed apart from the 7vs13-method which during that time he deems too complicated and time-intensive to try.
Apart from that though, if this variant would become impossible to truly execute, I wouldn't put it beyond Xehanort to say "meh, let's see perhaps a 99% light heart might result in something workable as well."

Of course it is also possible that Vanitas was acting on his own volition here and it was him who forgot that the "purity"-part has to be absolute.
Maybe when meeting Xehanort again offscreen the old coot chews Vanitas out not only for his stupid actions trying to end Ven, but also for considering Aqua a viable alternative since while it might result in something, the chances of it being successful would certainly be lower.
Instead, Xehanort orders Vanitas to intensify the "training" for Ventus and to end Aqua the next time they meet.
Indeed, when Vanitas and Aqua meet again he does remark about Ventus' progress and claims he decided that she's no more needed as a backup (Vanitas' own ego/pride and his disdain for Xehanort would certainly prevent him from admitting to a third party that he's carrying out the old coot's orders).

Also, while Nomura interviews certainly are in many cases good for getting explanations and filling gaps in some mysteries, one should keep in mind that they are not absolute and that if there is a contradiction between an interview and actual in-game information/confirmation, the content of the game takes precedence.

I'm honestly not sure at all myself, but I think Vanitas was made because Ventus at the time wasn't strong enough and wouldn't give into the darkness. And Aqua (probably) has lots of light in her heart, and she's a strong Keyblade wielder, so I guess her being a backup would make sense?
That's more or less canon.
No matter what Xehanort tried Ventus won't give in/succumb to Darkness, but Xehanort does need an "avatar" for the dark half of the blade in order to pursue his ambitions through his current plan/experiment.

We don't know how long Ventus was Xehanort's student before the Vanitas' creation flashbacks, but in the reports Xehanort not only remarks that Ventus is in general "too frail" to be used as a vessel but also that he's "too benign for his own good", which may among other things indicate that the Neo Shadow-attack orchestrated by Xehanort was certainly not the first attempt by the old coot to try and have Ventus give in to his Darkness.
The Neo Shadow-attack was just the last attempt in a possible row of incidents with Xehanort creating a "do-or-die"-situation because he began to lose his patience.

Throughout the whole scene Xehanort is seen to goad Ven on to give in to Darkness, just like Ansem SoD does constantly to Riku throughout the series.

When Ventus still doesn't use his Darkness or falls to it even in such a dire situation however, Xehanort outright states his disbelief/disappointment over the fact:
Master Xehanort said:
Really? You would rather die than use the power? Feckless neophyte.
You can practically hear his disdain from this assessment, his frustration that no matter what he tried, this damn kid just wouldn't give in.
For someone more inclined towards the light Ventus' resilience/refusal to give in would probably be seen as a good/admirable trait (Eraqus, Yen Sid and probably Mickey would be proud), but since Xehanort favors Darkness and sees it as the way to "true" power he interprets it as the failure of "a feckless neophyte".

When I played BBS for the first time on the PSP back in 2010 and got to this scene/statement Xehanort's reaction somehow reminded me of the reaction of Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of Jedi when Luke Skywalker tosses his Lightsaber aside and declares he won't get over to the Dark Side.
Both Palpatine and Xehanort are frustrated as heck in these moments. They're both used to getting their way and now someone who's a damn insignificant weakling in their eyes successfully resist their attempts in one way or another.
 

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Also, while Nomura interviews certainly are in many cases good for getting explanations and filling gaps in some mysteries, one should keep in mind that they are not absolute and that if there is a contradiction between an interview and actual in-game information/confirmation, the content of the game takes precedence.
I agree, what I criticize was the bit he stated about Aqua in the interview.
Sometimes his declarations bring more harm than good.
He could've just left it as it were and we wouldn't have to measure a backup Aqua with what the game states.
Not the end of the world either way, but y'know.
 

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What i find funny is that Xehanort's counterproductive act of nearly killing Ven is similar to why Xaldin was willing to kill Sora at Beast Castle even though he was vital to the Organization's goal.
 

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What i find funny is that Xehanort's counterproductive act of nearly killing Ven is similar to why Xaldin was willing to kill Sora at Beast Castle even though he was vital to the Organization's goal.
That was another splendid moment of confused writing.
"We need Sora alive"
"No wait let's kill him"
"Wait you buffoons don't kill him we need him"
"But if he dies, then he wasn't strong enough I guess"

They even tried in the FM version to add those Organization cutscenes to try and justify all that, and I found that extremely weak.
I swear, post-Hollow Bastion battle that's how it went down:

Xemnas: "If Sora dies, he just wasn't strong enough."
Xaldin: "Good to hear. I am unable to hold back."

Uhhh... okay? I guess the plan wasn't that important to you guys?
 
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