Was Xemnas truly a Nobody?

[gelandporn]

For my personal thoughts on whether Xemnas has a heart or not, I do think there are good chances that he does.
This is because, as I've pointed out, that he might be able to wield a keyblade (I've had theories on why he would intentionally choose not to wield it, such as MX's keyblade somehow having negative effects on him, but that's for another topic) and that Nomura has said he might be a "special" Nobody. There's only two special Nobodies that we know of, and one of them has a heart, so that would seemingly give him a 50/50 shot of having a heart.

As for which heart Xemnas has, I tend to rule out MX's because it seems obvious that he is embodied in Ansem SoD (who knows, could be a twist the other way but there's nothing really compelling for it, particularly since it's been said that Xemnas shares more traits with Terra and Ansem SoD shares more traits with MX). I have considered Eraqus' heart, but I don't really see any traits manifest in Xemnas (or Ansem SoD), physically or personality-wise, so I would think that Eraqus' heart plays a more minor role in either Xemnas or Ansem SoD.

So, yeah, not surprisingly, I lean toward Terra's heart. Which is funny because that would mean he's Terra's body, soul, and heart- basically the same being. But I still think he qualifies as a Nobody in the same way that Roxas qualifies as a Nobody- he is the leftovers (which happens to include a heart) of when a heart left the vessel, transformed through Nothingness.

As for whether he could feel emotions or not, I've had an idea for a while. He can, but only some negative ones like anger and hate (all that is left is anger and hate for Xehanort). As Marluxia implies in CoM, memories are intimately linked to emotions. If you lose the memories associated with particular emotions, you become unable to feel these emotions. And that's what I think happened to Xemnas. There are aspects of Ansem SoD like Terra and Xemnas like MX, implying that, even if their identities are the other way, their memories were blended to some degree.

I think Xemnas lost his memories of friendship with Aqua and Ven and only retained his memories of them through his hate of Xehanort. Thus, he remembers what he did to them, and he knows he was friends with them as Terra, but he does not remember what it feels like to be friends.

Sora: Xemnas. There's more to a heart than just anger or hate. It's full of all
kinds of feelings. Don't you remember?

Xemnas: Unfortunately...I don't.

This has always been an unsettling line. Xemnas doesn't remember the feelings other than anger or hate? That's not the case for other Nobodies. As Saix says, they don't have hearts but they remember what it was like. Why would Xemnas not remember what it was like to feel joy? Because he doesn't have the memories associated with them.

I feel like this could be used as a pretty nice twist in DDD. Nomura already said that finding out how the power/memories of MX and Terra were distributed between Xemnas and Ansem would be a subject in this game. Basically, it'd be like finding out that Terra is evil.

As for where Terra's positive memories are, I think they might reside in Riku (since Nomura said there might be something of Terra's in Riku left over from Ansem SoD- which could also be his heart, though I'm kind of sick of hearts going into different vessels).

Regarding Xemnas though we haven't yet a clue if he had a heart (despite there being three candidates), only Nomura's word on that he may be able to use one but choose not to.
If this in consequence means that Xemnas is required to have a heart to be able to wield...let the happy speculating begin which of the three hearts possible is within Xemnas.
It would make him and Roxas also way more similar in what they are than previously thought.

Yeah. According to current rules, having a keyblade means having a heart. So if Xemnas has a keyblade, he should have a heart. This isn't set in stone, of course, as Nomura may make some sort of exception, but he'll have to go back on what he said and qualify it somehow.

Considering above interview snippet that is legit.
So, concerning the second part if, for example, Roxas didn't had the connection to Sora but found Aqua's keyblade somehow he could essentially wield it because Ven's heart (which had the power passed by ceremony) allows him to? Despite Aqua herself not being involved at all?

I think so, but it depends on whether a keyblade wielder needs to willingly give their keyblade to another in order to allow them to wield it, as opposed to just finding it and using it. Really, the answer to that question would be the same for Roxas as any other keyblade wielder.

I still rather believe that Roxas only needed Sora to both emote and to wield--the pivotal point being that Sora was alive. This means that Roxas had a heart, it was Sora, it just existed outside of him. I know this has been retconned, I just don't like how it ruins so much symbolism, so I'd rather believe Ven's heart had only cosmetic effects until Xion carked it.

Even knowing it's undebatable, I wonder if that has anything to do with what makes Xemnas a different case to Roxas; his Other situation being different, I mean.

I've said it many times: as a character, I like Ven. As for his function in the broader story, I don't like him.
I still don't like that he and Roxas share the same looks. Not because Nomura was "lazy" or anything like that but because it seems to rob Roxas of his unique identity (I know he's a different character than Ven, but it's just not cool how he has to get his exact looks from another character). I miss the days when he was just Sora's Nobody.

And while I still think it's correct to call him Sora's Nobody, I hate seeing him referred to as the "Sora + Ventus" Nobody.

As for Xemnas' Other situation being different, first we have to establish just what exactly Ansem SoD is lol.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

For my personal thoughts on whether Xemnas has a heart or not, I do think there are good chances that he does.
This is because, as I've pointed out, that he might be able to wield a keyblade (I've had theories on why he would intentionally choose not to wield it, such as MX's keyblade somehow having negative effects on him, but that's for another topic) and that Nomura has said he might be a "special" Nobody. There's only two special Nobodies that we know of, and one of them has a heart, so that would seemingly give him a 50/50 shot of having a heart.

As for which heart Xemnas has, I tend to rule out MX's because it seems obvious that he is embodied in Ansem SoD (who knows, could be a twist the other way but there's nothing really compelling for it, particularly since it's been said that Xemnas shares more traits with Terra and Ansem SoD shares more traits with MX). I have considered Eraqus' heart, but I don't really see any traits manifest in Xemnas (or Ansem SoD), physically or personality-wise, so I would think that Eraqus' heart plays a more minor role in either Xemnas or Ansem SoD.

So, yeah, not surprisingly, I lean toward Terra's heart. Which is funny because that would mean he's Terra's body, soul, and heart- basically the same being. But I still think he qualifies as a Nobody in the same way that Roxas qualifies as a Nobody- he is the leftovers (which happens to include a heart) of when a heart left the vessel, transformed through Nothingness.

As for whether he could feel emotions or not, I've had an idea for a while. He can, but only some negative ones like anger and hate (all that is left is anger and hate for Xehanort). As Marluxia implies in CoM, memories are intimately linked to emotions. If you lose the memories associated with particular emotions, you become unable to feel these emotions. And that's what I think happened to Xemnas. There are aspects of Ansem SoD like Terra and Xemnas like MX, implying that, even if their identities are the other way, their memories were blended to some degree.

I think Xemnas lost his memories of friendship with Aqua and Ven and only retained his memories of them through his hate of Xehanort. Thus, he remembers what he did to them, and he knows he was friends with them as Terra, but he does not remember what it feels like to be friends.



This has always been an unsettling line. Xemnas doesn't remember the feelings other than anger or hate? That's not the case for other Nobodies. As Saix says, they don't have hearts but they remember what it was like. Why would Xemnas not remember what it was like to feel joy? Because he doesn't have the memories associated with them.

I feel like this could be used as a pretty nice twist in DDD. Nomura already said that finding out how the power/memories of MX and Terra were distributed between Xemnas and Ansem would be a subject in this game. Basically, it'd be like finding out that Terra is evil.

As for where Terra's positive memories are, I think they might reside in Riku (since Nomura said there might be something of Terra's in Riku left over from Ansem SoD- which could also be his heart, though I'm kind of sick of hearts going into different vessels).

As for the two special nobodies, lol, isn't it so that no one knows what exactly Naminé is?
And if I recall correctly Naminé was also shown truly crying once and was also said to have real emotions...just explainable by Kairi also co-existing with her? Is that enough to have true emotions as well?
There's a shortage of spare hearts who could serve as another "emotion"-donor...except if one would argue that poor Ven's heart got shattered in two independent pieces when Sora stabbed himself with the dark keyblade...*yuck* (doesn't want to think about it).

The only "reference" Xemnas has to Eraqus is the "hearts are power"-line which was given by the keyblade master once.
Also, there has to be a reason why Xemnas could built the chamber of repose like a mirror image of the chamber of waking...and I doubt Terra knew the layout of it.
Eraqus knew of the mechanism to transform Land of Departure for sure, Xehanort maybe.
A bit thin, I know.

Terra's heart? But...then we would have Terra, all parts of the same full existence would be in the same place. Roxas is a mixture, but in this case Xemnas would not be one...there would be nothing left of Xehanort in Xemnas except some memories...0_o

An evil Terra...jeez...that would be so much material for a truly angsty storyline...

Something of Terra is hinted to be in Riku, yes, so that means Ansem SoD needs to have at least something from Terra.
I honestly don't see though how a packet of memories in Riku could be any helpful in finally rescuing Terra...
Hearts going into different vessels seems to be a staple of the series though...it was already done in the very first game with Kairi.

Yeah. According to current rules, having a keyblade means having a heart. So if Xemnas has a keyblade, he should have a heart. This isn't set in stone, of course, as Nomura may make some sort of exception, but he'll have to go back on what he said and qualify it somehow.

I see, well, Nomura somewhat loves exceptions (and i.e. Naminé is a huge one which isn't even explainable, even more so than Roxas, who is explainable to a degree).

I think so, but it depends on whether a keyblade wielder needs to willingly give their keyblade to another in order to allow them to wield it, as opposed to just finding it and using it. Really, the answer to that question would be the same for Roxas as any other keyblade wielder.

If will is involved that would not work though I think...because Riku fought Roxas with his own Oblivion. If giving your keyblade willingly is involved the Oblivion should have returned to Roxas's hand the very first time Riku raised the weapon against its own master.

I've said it many times: as a character, I like Ven. As for his function in the broader story, I don't like him.
I still don't like that he and Roxas share the same looks. Not because Nomura was "lazy" or anything like that but because it seems to rob Roxas of his unique identity (I know he's a different character than Ven, but it's just not cool how he has to get his exact looks from another character). I miss the days when he was just Sora's Nobody.

And while I still think it's correct to call him Sora's Nobody, I hate seeing him referred to as the "Sora + Ventus" Nobody.

As for Xemnas' Other situation being different, first we have to establish just what exactly Ansem SoD is lol.

I can only speak for myself but I still fail to understand why several people make such a fuss over their looks...it's practically the only thing they really have in common.
If Roxas had Ven's hairstyle but Sora's haircolor it would be better or what? *shrugs*

As far as I remember it was you who stressed how unique Roxas's identity is despite Ventus existing and their identical looks.
Furthermore, in my opinion Roxas becomes even more unique since he was created from both Sora and Ven. If you mix different "ingredients" together you get something new...Roxas is actually more than just a continuation/mere shadow of Sora like the normal nobodies are of their original selves.
One maybe should make a whole equation out of it, *ggg*: 2/3Sora + 1/3Ventus = 100%Roxas!

Yeah, exactly this...if Ansem SoD is in actuality also a "floating heart" like Sora was (this was hinted in the KH1-Ansem Reports) Xemnas and "Ansem", which is the name "Xehanort" stole, would be also co-existing.
The discrepancy of Sora being able to maintain his human form and Ansem SoD not being able to (needing Riku's body) could be explainable by the fact that Ansem SoD didn't have a Princess of Heart hugging him...;P

 

[flurryflames]

I believe that Xenmas is a nobody and has a heart in well in some ways. Anger and hatred, and it didn't need to have a picture pointed for someone to understand that. What I don't understand is why he distressed his followers of going after hearts. (Either they wanted to or not.) Even though he might have one. Poisioning someone's mind and making them think like a robot seems too convenient. Xenmas is alot like MX when it comes to obessessive with the heart. I think he wanted more than that. I was very confused with this memory thing connected with the hearts. Since the derived shadows of nobodies either pretend or don't. It is contridicting in a way.

I believe Xenmas could use a keyblade if he wanted to, but decides against it.

 

[Goldpanner]

I don't quite get the "symbolism"-part though, as no matter how one twists it Roxas is still mainly Sora's nobody, he was born using Sora's heart and inhabited Sora's body and soul.

I mean like
"the other side of your heart"
"I want to line the pieces up--yours and mine"
"you hold half of what he is"
"to half of Sora, of course. You reside in darkness"
"someone from the dark"
"you can't have one without the other, cause darkness is half of everything"

etc etc.

It's hard to be the 'other side' of someone and 'half' of someone when there are actually three people involved. And less meaningful, imo, but of course it's subjective.

Which is funny because that would mean he's Terra's body, soul, and heart- basically the same being. But I still think he qualifies as a Nobody in the same way that Roxas qualifies as a Nobody- he is the leftovers (which happens to include a heart) of when a heart left the vessel, transformed through Nothingness.

I wonder if it has something to do with how you have to kill the heartless and nobody before the person can come back whole. Maybe by killing them it makes them manifest in the proper realm or the proper composition or something, and Terra/Xemnas was pretty much screwed over in that regard lol.

I feel like this could be used as a pretty nice twist in DDD. Nomura already said that finding out how the power/memories of MX and Terra were distributed between Xemnas and Ansem would be a subject in this game. Basically, it'd be like finding out that Terra is evil.

As for where Terra's positive memories are, I think they might reside in Riku (since Nomura said there might be something of Terra's in Riku left over from Ansem SoD- which could also be his heart, though I'm kind of sick of hearts going into different vessels).

That would be really cute :3

I've said it many times: as a character, I like Ven. As for his function in the broader story, I don't like him.
I still don't like that he and Roxas share the same looks. Not because Nomura was "lazy" or anything like that but because it seems to rob Roxas of his unique identity (I know he's a different character than Ven, but it's just not cool how he has to get his exact looks from another character).

I feel exactly the same. I also love Ven, but don't really like what he adds to (or tangles in) the mythology.

But then again, it could be argued that Roxas doesn't function much in the broader story either. I personally like the themes involved in his character, but I've seen it pointed out how he doesn't really do much for either the plot holes (his main role is to explain why Sora took so long to wake up? Which might not even have to have been a problem if he wasn't written in the first place? And to explain why Xemnas' KH is so complete by the time of KH2? Or to explain dual wielding? Which could also have been explained through Ven alone), or Sora's character development. Yet, anyway.

I miss the days when he was just Sora's Nobody. And while I still think it's correct to call him Sora's Nobody, I hate seeing him referred to as the "Sora + Ventus" Nobody.

And I don't like to think of him as the Sora + Ven nobody, either. I personally like to think of Ven's influence being nothing but cornflakes visible through a clear plastic container. Doesn't change or determine any properties of the plastic itself at all, only what you see when you look at it. This is a terrible analogy. OH WELL

As for Xemnas' Other situation being different, first we have to establish just what exactly Ansem SoD is lol.

arggggg

Well if killing him plus a Nobody made something come back, he must have been a Heartless in some way lol

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I mean like
"the other side of your heart"
"I want to line the pieces up--yours and mine"
"you hold half of what he is"
"to half of Sora, of course. You reside in darkness"
"someone from the dark"
"you can't have one without the other, cause darkness is half of everything"

etc etc.

It's hard to be the 'other side' of someone and 'half' of someone when there are actually three people involved. And less meaningful, imo, but of course it's subjective.

Ah, those, as I see it some of them, particulary the second and last one don't even refer to Roxas.
The first still holds and isn't contradicted by anything since Roxas still was born from Sora's heart and as seen in CoM he used mainly Sora's heart to store his own memories as well.

As for "half" and "other side/self", Ven's involvement just shows that Roxas is indeed more than just Sora's other half. Ansem the Wise made the "half of Sora"-comment and he was a rotten asshole that time nonetheless, and most likely didn't knew of Ven at all.
Roxas's strong desire for independence can also be partly explained through this occurrence.

That he holds "half of what Sora is" also still stands undisputed as he really used Sora's body and soul during his independent existence and, thanks to Naminé's meddling, also a bunch of Sora's own memories which he didn't associate with himself at all.

Yeah, of course it's subjective, I never said it's "wrong" or "stupid", just that I didn't understand it since I think it actually deepens the uniqueness of Roxas and sets him apart another level from the other, standard nobodies.
Most of the other stuff regarding this I already also said in post #22 as an answer to Grass, so my stance should be clear enough I hope.

That would be really cute :3

Terra evil being cute...err, not sure I'm on that one...o_0

And I don't like to think of him as the Sora + Ven nobody, either. I personally like to think of Ven's influence being nothing but cornflakes visible through a clear plastic container. Doesn't change or determine any properties of the plastic itself at all, only what you see when you look at it. This is a terrible analogy. OH WELL

I actually like that analogy, since Roxas was empty in the beginning like a container, it was even outright said somewhere I think.
He slowly developed into something, with Sora "providing" the physical "shell" (body) and the life energy (soul) and Ventus providing the appearance and feelings (heart).
Anything more that developed in that "framework" provided by the two guys is then what comprises the being named "Roxas".

 

[Goldpanner]

Ah, those, as I see it some of them, particulary the second and last one don't even refer to Roxas.

It's more about Roxas' themes and how they also fit into the big picture themes of both particular games and the entire series, which is why I called it 'symbolism' not 'direct references' lol. So no, it's not about contradicting, just watering down of themes. As with the other stuff, you can always find in-universe points like DiZ and Roxas' actions to explain in-universe things, but I'm talking about looking at it from a thematic/atmosphere point of view. Then again, those 'themes' are only things I saw, I don't even know for sure they were intended.

Yeah, of course it's subjective, I never said it's "wrong" or "stupid", just that I didn't understand it since I think it actually deepens the uniqueness of Roxas and sets him apart another level from the other, standard nobodies.

Adding on a connection to Ven might have made Roxas more specifically special, but it didn't really add anything to the emotional resonance for me. Personally, I think that having a connection to the Keyblade and as such being tied to Sora's destiny already set him apart enough in a way that also had emotional impact; we already knew and loved Sora, and we came to know (and maybe love) Roxas, so we were caught between sympathies for both of them plotwise. Especially because of the added plots involving how the Keyblade and that destiny broke up Roxas' friendships.

Whatever Roxas got from Ven doesn't really have the same impact, because there's no explicit plot made out of Roxas having them or Ven needing those elements back, no struggle or sadness or bittersweetness or personal growth or anything because a) in-universe no one knew and b) Ven wasn't even around for it to matter.

So I can see your perspective, and I know it's probably a better one to have because it's more positive and I'd rather enjoy something than not, but Roxas was basically my favourite character for a very long time and he meant a lot to me, so I guess I get more picky over him. lol

 

[TheKHPlayer]

When Xemnas fused with the half destroyed Kingdom Hearts towards the end, he shouldn't be a Nobody anymore, correct?

He still was a nobody, just half. He was part whole & part nobody at that time.

 

[PepsiDragon]

To answer this question we need more questions and answers to those questions and possibly depending on those answer even more questions Kinda like real life every answer leads to more questions anyways.

1. Can a non Nobody control Nobodies?
2. Does having or gaining a heart mean you are not or no longer a nobody?
3. Did Xemnas have a Heart to begin with?
4. Does going from nobody to not a nobody get rid of the ability to control nobodies?
5. If a nobody fused with an entire Kingdom Hearts Would it take all that to make him into 'normal' again?
6. If so then does that mean the Kingdom heart would be depleted or would have to be remade to do it again or does it mean that it will do it unlimited times for many nobodies or is it relative on the power of the nobody?
7. If not then what would it take for a non nobody to turn 'normal'? as you would not need a complete KH to turn whole again
8. Does fusing with KH give you more power the more 'fused' with it you are?

----Answers------(or a sorry excuse to one)
1.) My initial feeling to this is no, because of the fact that Orginazation XIII were the upper Nobodies who controlled the lower nobodies. The reason why this question is relevant is because, Xemnas after he may have fused with an incomplete artificial KH he is apparently still able to control nobodies, because it is most likely him who, right before he disappeared or faded away, summoned the horde of nobodies, in which either the battle of them were all skipped, Riku went insta beast mode, or they spawned and died right next to each-other, all of which are plausible. So if Xemnas was not a nobody and he could not control the nobodies who did? probably not Roxas.

So if non Nobodies can not control nobodies, and no other way for the nobodies at the end to be summoned other then Xemnas, then Xemnas is truly a nobody 'enough at least to control nobodies'

2.) So if you are a nobody, but you gain a heart does that mean you are no longer a nobody. So the answer to this is probably Yes as the Nobody is basically just missing the heart (which is weird because they are a NO body but they have a body and Heart LESS technically have a heart locked away in darkness) so if they get a heart they should be a normal person , unless they have to get THEIR original heart then they just have to find the right one, or they craft their own heart possibly the reason for Kingdom Hearts is crafting Hearts (This could also be a little KH creationist story )

So if a nobody gains a heart and becomes whole and non nobodies can not control nobodies and Xemnas is the one who summoned the Nobodies then Xemnas must have been a nobody

3.) If Xemnas had a heart to begin with and you cannot have a heart to be a nobody and you have to have a heart to control nobodies and Xemnas did summon the nobodies at the end of KHII then Xemnas must have been a nobody

4.) Probably it would, because as soon as you become a whole being other nobodies wouldn't have a reason to listen to you they would want to follow other nobodies towards a common goal, and a whole body does not necessarily have that same goal to heart (hehehehe get it)
So then becoming whole would sacrifice your ability to control heartless this means that if Xemnas became whole that means he didn't summon the nobodies.

5.) This is more relevant to the condition could have Xemnas become whole at this point, and the theoretic condition of having a full Kingdom Hearts. If one Nobody needed one Kingdom Hearts to become whole that could turn into a sort of logistical problem which means that is unlikely anybody would follow Xemnas. Unless KH did some sort of regeneration thing

6.) It probably would not become depleted and to be remade as this would become impossible to make an organization as no one would want to help just one guy get whole. It probably is not relative on the power of the nobody, but rather the power of the heart that the nobody used to have if KH recreates a heart. Then KH may need to be recharged with hearts. Which also means that there would be enough hearts for all nobodies to become whole. Because:

Nobodies are from only strong hearts and the strength of the nobody is relative of the former condition of person usually who is influenced by their heart and the strength of their heart. So the power of all the hearts would be greater than the power of all the nobodies because not all the hearts being stolen result in nobodies.

7.) This question if true basically means that you don't need a complete KH to become whole but you do need a relative amount of power in it to match you to become whole

8.) This basically means if true that it does not matter if you get the right match heart for a nobody. Which also means you could become more powerful then you were before in terms of your heart. Which probably influences yourself to with your heart influencing you with this the nobodies would be able to create the New world orginazation XIII

What these last few questions means for Xemnas being a nobody?

Well if he was trying to make the theoretical NWOXIII then he would need KH, but it also determines in terms of the balance in answer to question 6 Which could cause problems if all the nobodies wanted to become too powerful (power of nobodies turning into whole > power of all hearts), but if it does not mater about the power of hearts and nobodies then KH must have infinite power, but does it require a full KH to have this infinite power.

so then if Xemnas can get enough power from KH could he override the nobodies are only controlled by non nobodies rule?

So if Xemnas gets enough power from a incomplete KH to become whole and get enough power to still control nobodies then he might not have been a nobody.


My final conclusion is that Xemnas was probably a nobody. My reasoning is that the answer to question 1 is most likely no, and that Xemnas is probably not likely to gain enough power from an incomplete KH to override this rule if that is even possible.


If you read that entire post you get 7 and half home baked warm chocolate chip cookies, and a big tall glass of milk. MMMMMMM

 

[Goldpanner]

2.) So if you are a nobody, but you gain a heart does that mean you are no longer a nobody. So the answer to this is probably Yes as the Nobody is basically just missing the heart

That's one way to look at it, but another way is to think this: a Nobody is not a creature without a heart, it is the remains of a person after losing their heart. In normal one-heart-person circumstances, that does mean they become creatures without hearts, but in weird situations where the original person had more than one heart inside them when they lost one, it causes heart/s to be left with the other remains.

I still personally think of those as Nobodies, because for example, even though Roxas had Ven's heart inside him, Roxas was still the leftovers of Sora, making him Sora's Nobody. (He still had a deep link to Sora, was reborn in the RoI, and could be absorbed into his Other.) It's just that a heart was part of those leftovers.

As for the business with Xemnas absorbing the artificial KH, I don't think he was trying to become whole, I think he was trying to pull off what MX talks about in his reports and transcend humanity. Or whatever it said lol

 

[PepsiDragon]

Well when you add in the weird circumstances you get the whole every rule has an exception things, and things get weird. So then to determine if Xemnas was a Nobody or not you also need to determine his state before he lost his heart. Did he have some weird condition of having a bunch of hearts or was he a normal case?

So was there anything weird about Xemnas before he as a nobody?

 

[Goldpanner]

to determine if Xemnas was a Nobody or not you also need to determine his state before he lost his heart.

As I said, that depends on how you personally define a Nobody. I think the state before losing a heart doesn't matter, because it's the fact of having lost a heart and the remains then being reborn in the RoI as a new creature that make one.

So was there anything weird about Xemnas before he as a nobody?

I think it's heavily hinted that the being that Xemnas came from, Apprentice Xehanort, had three hearts; Eraqus, Terra and MX.

 

[PepsiDragon]

To me a nobody is a being once normal not having had his heart lost or anything. Loses his heart then, because of the strong heart having alot of influence on the body before the loss of the heart the body gets this strength so it becomes animated.

The heart is contained by the heartless that took the heart right?

and the body is simply reanimated through the past influence of the heart.

But the state before the loss of heart is important. If there is someone with 3 hearts like Apprentice Xehanort, What if none of the hearts are strong enough to make a nobody, but if they are combined strong enough. And what of where the hearts originally came from. What if all of them vary significantly in strength what kind of a nobody will it create?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

It's more about Roxas' themes and how they also fit into the big picture themes of both particular games and the entire series, which is why I called it 'symbolism' not 'direct references' lol. So no, it's not about contradicting, just watering down of themes. As with the other stuff, you can always find in-universe points like DiZ and Roxas' actions to explain in-universe things, but I'm talking about looking at it from a thematic/atmosphere point of view. Then again, those 'themes' are only things I saw, I don't even know for sure they were intended.

Ah, ok, "themes" is of course another topic right on here, lol, and also subjective to what anyone discovers as themes.

Adding on a connection to Ven might have made Roxas more specifically special, but it didn't really add anything to the emotional resonance for me. Personally, I think that having a connection to the Keyblade and as such being tied to Sora's destiny already set him apart enough in a way that also had emotional impact; we already knew and loved Sora, and we came to know (and maybe love) Roxas, so we were caught between sympathies for both of them plotwise. Especially because of the added plots involving how the Keyblade and that destiny broke up Roxas' friendships.

I agree about the "emotional impact" on the viewers/gamers and that it already made him special, the connection to Ven then is more or less the "icing on the cake" and helps explaining it in-universe to a bigger degree.
Like i.e. also why Roxas doesn't identify himself with Sora at all, having elements of Ven mixed in there adds, at least in my book, a deeper explanation to the issue and also why he was struggling so hard to have his own life.
If I recall correctly even Naminé pointed that out once to Riku, that she was literally stunned how ferociously Roxas was fighting to become his own person, heck, he even hated Sora for a while.
It's somewhat ironic that this "destiny" did cost him way more than just his friendships, and in the end, comes over as just cruel.
Sora searches for Riku and Kairi, Ven wants to be together with Terra and Aqua again...these will get their happy ending (or rather, Sora already has) I am completely sure of that.

Whatever Roxas got from Ven doesn't really have the same impact, because there's no explicit plot made out of Roxas having them or Ven needing those elements back, no struggle or sadness or bittersweetness or personal growth or anything because a) in-universe no one knew and b) Ven wasn't even around for it to matter.

So I can see your perspective, and I know it's probably a better one to have because it's more positive and I'd rather enjoy something than not, but Roxas was basically my favourite character for a very long time and he meant a lot to me, so I guess I get more picky over him. lol

See, that would be again just a negative impact on Roxas's part of the deal. I've already seen theories on stuff that Roxas would really have "parts" or Ven which he also needs to give up...seriously, hasn't this guy been through enough and can get something really positive for once (yes, I actually don't count being tucked into Sora as that!)?
Thinking about "no one knew" I wonder though since I noticed something: When DiZ, Naminé and Riku imprisoned Roxas in the digital Twilight Town they "digitized" him, wouldn't it be possible then that at least one of them must have noticed Ven's crippled heart lying within him?

I always try to give things a more positive vibe, as Nomura himself makes the things already dramatic enough and more than once introduces characters, gives them only half-development and then let them disappear the next game.

"Was the favorite"? "Meant a lot?"
Lol, let me guess, the culprit is called "Days"?
I think this good sharing of views warrants a friend-request. ^__^
---
That whole essay of PepsiDragon I have to read later when I have enough time on hand, geez.

 

[flurryflames]

To me a nobody is a being once normal not having had his heart lost or anything. Loses his heart then, because of the strong heart having alot of influence on the body before the loss of the heart the body gets this strength so it becomes animated.

The heart is contained by the heartless that took the heart right?

and the body is simply reanimated through the past influence of the heart.

But the state before the loss of heart is important. If there is someone with 3 hearts like Apprentice Xehanort, What if none of the hearts are strong enough to make a nobody, but if they are combined strong enough. And what of where the hearts originally came from. What if all of them vary significantly in strength what kind of a nobody will it create?

The heart was lost to darkness and it would be impossible for the nobody to track down that heartless they stole their heart. Hence reason why Xenmas had them go after all hearts. With Roxas he was more successful with trying to get what he wanted.
True, but these nobodies had their own mind and reconnected themselves with their memories of who they were. Though I wonder if they do become human if they would remember being nobodies and have those memories as well?

If they weren't strong to make a nobody then they would become a heartless instead.

Thinking about "no one knew" I wonder though since I noticed something: When DiZ, Naminé and Riku imprisoned Roxas in the digital Twilight Town they "digitized" him, wouldn't it be possible then that at least one of them must have noticed Ven's crippled heart lying within him?

I don't think he was actually digitized, but had his memories erased. Perhaps they couldn't detect the slight notion of it due to it being damaged or sleeping. Or Noruma was still either brain storming with Ven's development or forgot about it.

 

[Absolute]

As for whether he could feel emotions or not, I've had an idea for a while. He can, but only some negative ones like anger and hate (all that is left is anger and hate for Xehanort). As Marluxia implies in CoM, memories are intimately linked to emotions. If you lose the memories associated with particular emotions, you become unable to feel these emotions. And that's what I think happened to Xemnas. There are aspects of Ansem SoD like Terra and Xemnas like MX, implying that, even if their identities are the other way, their memories were blended to some degree.

It seems that this negative emotion idea is becoming a trend in this story. Xemnas can only remember anger and hate, he says after being beaten the 2nd time (afetr armor form #1) that he needs more rage to win, Lingering Will is built on his hatred and rage of Xehanort and even has that as his theme song, and the Unversed were all negative emotions created from a light/dark split in a heart. It feels that there is still some piece of information missing that when revealed actually shows that all of these things are connected.

According to current rules, having a keyblade means having a heart.

This ties in with nomura's idea in coded, if a heart can be created by something like data when we see data Sora get his own keyblade.

So, taking the current rules, you would think that Xemnas has a heart since Nomura said he chooses not to use a keyblade, meaning that perhaps he didn't lose his keyblade and he still has a heart. If he lost his ability to wield any keyblade, that could be inferred that he lost his heart somehow (heart experiments, Terra/MX trying to remove MX/Terra's heart out of Terra's body, hell, MX taking his fused heart, breaking it into pieces and injecting them into the other Apprentices and Lea and Isa as a way to sow more seeds or something to the point where his heart was too broken to wield and he lost the ability, but i digress.) However, because he specifically said that he chose not to wield makes it sound like he can wield whenever he wants and that he has a heart. Now, whose heart is the next question if its true that he had one (or two, or three or seven, I'm losing count with him nowadays).

As for the heart being needed to wield a keyblade theory, i wonder if that will change in order to explain Lingering Will.

 

[flurryflames]

However, because he specifically said that he chose not to wield makes it sound like he can wield whenever he wants and that he has a heart. Now, whose heart is the next question if its true that he had one (or two, or three or seven, I'm losing count with him nowadays).

As for the heart being needed to wield a keyblade theory, i wonder if that will change in order to explain Lingering Will.

This is where the game contradicts itself. It confuses the purpose of the organization needing hearts and Xenmas slaving them to do it. I still feel he wanted to create an army to become a god and gain everything in the universe. MX being obsessed with the heart is part of his memories. I have no doubt that Xenmas has a heart all of the evidence points to it, but if he has a heart then it could be bits of the three MX, Terra Xeohanart the heartless or somebody. This would explain how messed up the guy became.

 

[Key of Valor]

However, because he specifically said that he chose not to wield makes it sound like he can wield whenever he wants and that he has a heart. Now, whose heart is the next question if its true that he had one (or two, or three or seven, I'm losing count with him nowadays).

Nomura said that there is a possibility that Xemnas was choosing not to wield a Keyblade. There is also a possibility that Xemnas was just unable to wield a Keyblade at all. If Xemnas could use a Keyblade, then he would have used a Keyblade. There is no reason for why Xemnas wouldn't use a Keyblade.

 

[Horizon's Knight]

Nomura said that there is a possibility that Xemnas was choosing not to wield a Keyblade. There is also a possibility that Xemnas was just unable to wield a Keyblade at all. If Xemnas could use a Keyblade, then he would have used a Keyblade. There is no reason for why Xemnas wouldn't use a Keyblade.

Well, the Heartless constantly track down anyone with a Keyblade. This also includes Xehanort's Heartless, who is the only humanoid Heartless in existence, and because Xehanort's Heartless was the original being, he could easily take his body back from Xemnas. I doubt there would be any reason to risk that, even if the Keyblade could help reach Xemnas' goal. Seeing as how the Heart influences the body a great deal in the KHverse, Xemnas has every right to fear using the Keyblade.

 

[Key of Valor]

Well, the Heartless constantly track down anyone with a Keyblade. This also includes Xehanort's Heartless, who is the only humanoid Heartless in existence, and because Xehanort's Heartless was the original being, he could easily take his body back from Xemnas. I doubt there would be any reason to risk that, even if the Keyblade could help reach Xemnas' goal. Seeing as how the Heart influences the body a great deal in the KHverse, Xemnas has every right to fear using the Keyblade.

Xehanort's Heartless didn't seem like he was trying to track down to Xemnas to take back his body.

Also, once Sora defeated Xehanort's Heartless, the threat posed by the Heartless was significantly reduced, and Xemnas had no reason to not use the Keyblade from then onward... especially when fighting for his non-existence against Sora and Riku.

 

[Horizon's Knight]

Xehanort's Heartless didn't seem like he was trying to track down to Xemnas to take back his body.

Also, once Sora defeated Xehanort's Heartless, the threat posed by the Heartless was significantly reduced, and Xemnas had no reason to not use the Keyblade from then onward... especially when fighting for his non-existence against Sora and Riku.

Actually, XH was kicking in Riku's body for quite awhile, so Xemnas could have sensed this and decided not to take any chances.