Was Xemnas' revelation that surprising?



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Grono

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Okay, so I have a question for the forum here. This isn't meant to be a "oh, how did you NOT catch onto that" thing, since I didn't 100% think this either, but I've seen a few things on this forum that are meant to be "revelations" when, in fact, it was actually a little obvious to begin with that this was the case.

My question is: was the fact that nobodies could have hearts from DDD a revelation? I remember, when I was watching the cutscenes for KH3D, and when Xemnas said that they did really have hearts, I was kind of like "yeah, of course you do." But I found that a few people didn't quite know that yet... I don't mean to sounds like a jackass, but I always thought that they had hearts. It was heavily implied that Axel, Roxas, and Xion all had feelings, and the fact that "they're memories of past emotions" I always thought was bullshit. Plus when DiZ confirmed it I just thought he was a racist xD To be honest, none of that really surprised me, but after looking at the forums, it seems people were shocked by this revelation. What do you guys think about it? Did you see this coming, like me, or were you ask shocked as most people were that Xemnas had a heart? Comment below, let me know :D

P.S. I think Yen Sid said something similar about emotions, but I never added that to canon, either (due to seeing Roxas and Axel in KHII)
 

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I wasn't surprised. By Days(in kh 2 I thought Sora was affecting him emotionally) I was 100 percent sure they had hearts, then came Re:Coded with Data-Sora and I was adamant with the belief that anything was capable of growing a heart. I think DDD's plot twist/revelation was supposed to be the true Org. 13 and time travel.
 

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I think it was to some extent. I mean the fandom had long figured out that Roxas had a heart, of course, but the general consensus was just that it was Ventus' heart. The revelation that not only did Roxas have Ventus' heart, but that he also had begun to grow his own heart was a bit surprising, I think. And not just him, but all of the Nobodies. I think most people expected to be like a "in a few special cases they grew hearts" not literally "every single Nobody has the capacity to grow a new heart". So like the concept wasn't completely surprising, but I think the details of it and the breadth of its effect was a little unexpected. Not shocking, mind you, but not totally expected, basically.
 

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If it was surprising I had long lost my love for most the series to notice. To me it was more disappointment than surprise. DDD took two villains, Ansem & Xemnas, from beings of mixed personalties and memories to just being puppets for Xehanort somehow even though the original Xehanort had been divided God knows how many ways.

Before the "oh hey we all can grow hearts!" you an intriguing set up of Ansem & Xemnas. Hell they was much like Roxas back in them days. There was just as many deep and passive yet passionate theories and debates about which part of Terra, Xehanort or their own unique personality was shaping their actions.
Roxas had the fun debates of having a heart while Xemnas had the fun debates of his mixed up personality.
All gone now. Now it's all Xehanorts plan. It's not even an interesting villain set up anymore, especially with true older one running the show.

Master Xehanort was good for bbs the "Xehanort backstory game" but there's literally a dozen other versions that'd have been more interesting 'final form' kh3 villains.

It's kinda ironic really. Saying anything can grow a heart and be a unique individual took that individualism and uniqueness away from Ansem & Xemnas.
 

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Not really. Playing Days pretty much convinced me that even if they didn't have actual hearts, whatever they had was close enough to the real thing that it might as well have been the same. Then you have Re:Coded, where an entity made of data was able to grow his own heart. It didn't seem that unreasonable that Nobodies could do the same.

Besides, I had been through a few stories where a combination of accumulated memories, life experience, and interaction with people and human concepts caused things like droids to develop their own very distinct personalities and to deviate from their original programming. If I remember correctly, Nobodies could develop their own hearts through this same method, so it didn't seem that odd when it was explicitly confirmed.
 

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Kind of. I was one of the people who originally thought Roxas had a heart, but like many I thought it was Ven’s. I originally thought that his heart had some kind of effect on the people close to him, like it helped them experience emotions by proxy or something, which could explain Axel’s behavior.

I don’t think the fact that all the nobodies had the potential to grow hearts is that much of a stretch, since many of them do act like they have emotions already. That was actually one of the DDD revelations that bothered me the least, even though I found it infinitely more interesting when they didn’t have hearts. I don’t like it, but I don’t view it as much of a surprise.

The real ̶a̶s̶s̶p̶u̶l̶l̶ surprise of the game was the “true purpose” of Organization XII.

If it was surprising I had long lost my love for most the series to notice. To me it was more disappointment than surprise. DDD took two villains, Ansem & Xemnas, from beings of mixed personalties and memories to just being puppets for Xehanort somehow even though the original Xehanort had been divided God knows how many ways.

Before the "oh hey we all can grow hearts!" you an intriguing set up of Ansem & Xemnas. Hell they was much like Roxas back in them days. There was just as many deep and passive yet passionate theories and debates about which part of Terra, Xehanort or their own unique personality was shaping their actions.
Roxas had the fun debates of having a heart while Xemnas had the fun debates of his mixed up personality.
All gone now. Now it's all Xehanorts plan. It's not even an interesting villain set up anymore, especially with true older one running the show.

Master Xehanort was good for bbs the "Xehanort backstory game" but there's literally a dozen other versions that'd have been more interesting 'final form' kh3 villains.

It's kinda ironic really. Saying anything can grow a heart and be a unique individual took that individualism and uniqueness away from Ansem & Xemnas.
This right here is what annoyed me the most about DDD. Ansem and Xemnas went from interesting to boring in the span of one cutscene. It's one thing for the Organization having dormant hearts or the potential to grow them or something, but I hate how Xemnas knew about it and it was all part of some "master plan" of MX. It really does take away the sense of individuality from each of the Xehanort incarnations.
 

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In a way I can see that, but for me KH3D still felt like the incarnations were individuals, even if their plans were revealed to be part of MX's. You still have Ansem's weird relationship with Riku being developed and called to. Young Xehanort felt distinct from the others. I guess the biggest hit was Xemnas, but I never really felt like Xemnas has consistent characterization anyway. The series seemed to keep flip-flopping on whether or not he was Terra-ish or not too many times. And then Days came around and gave him his worst most asinine characterization yet (like all the members in Days). So, eh.

I think the thing that harms Xemnas is that his antagonism isn't really personal to any of the characters. Like Ansem and Riku have a history and it feels personal between them. MX feels personal to the BBS trio. Xemnas doesn't really have that with any of the characters. The closest is Roxas, but even that was incredibly under-developed in Days and subsequent games.
 

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In a way I can see that, but for me KH3D still felt like the incarnations were individuals, even if their plans were revealed to be part of MX's. You still have Ansem's weird relationship with Riku being developed and called to. Young Xehanort felt distinct from the others.
Xemnas definitely didn't have much characterization but then again most Xehanorts haven't. Even Ansem was mostly just trying to take Rikus body consistently. However they still felt like their own person. Sure they have some individualism as far as mannerisms go but this is because most of them are caused by being Xehanort merged with someone else.
It's not truly the same as them being a unique mind with their own goals. Now they are just puppets Xehanort is controlling.
There isn't individualism because they aren't doing anything for their own ends or goals after DDD. It was all for the voice of that old creepy person inside.

I mean when you sit and look at it Ansem & Rikus relationship is just a repeat of Xehanorts and Terra's. Just an old coot after a younger body. The unique aspect to it is that Riku overcame it while Terra didn't. It was the other people besides Xehanort that made those relationships unique.
It hurts more I think because Ansem behaves like MX does. Even down to the exaggerated hand gestures and outfit. Ansem being the heartless and thus born of the Xehanort heart makes true individualism a deep debate in of itself tbh.

Young Xehanort feels distinct but not individual to me. Mostly because his purpose is to just carry out more of Xehanorts plans while explaining those plans to us the player. His acceptance of who he grows to be also kills it since he doesn't seem to interested in being anyone other than the old Xehanort.

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I guess the biggest hit was Xemnas, but I never really felt like Xemnas has consistent characterization anyway. The series seemed to keep flip-flopping on whether or not he was Terra-ish or not too many times. And then Days came around and gave him his worst most asinine characterization yet (like all the members in Days). So, eh.

I think the thing that harms Xemnas is that his antagonism isn't really personal to any of the characters. Like Ansem and Riku have a history and it feels personal between them. MX feels personal to the BBS trio. Xemnas doesn't really have that with any of the characters. The closest is Roxas, but even that was incredibly under-developed in Days and subsequent games.
Your right on that one. Xemnas wasn't really anyone's "personal Xehanort'". Everyone had a version of Xehanort specifically antagonistic to them except for Xemnas.
Even the Roxas tie is bad since throughout Days Xemnas just sits in that chair smirking every time you see him. The most personal he gets with Roxas is finding him shortly after creation.

The flip-flopping honestly was always the most intriguing part of the older debates. So much could be attributed to Xehanort or Terra. Now we know it was just Xehanort all along making even the Terra-ish parts now nothing.
I think they didn't know what to do with Xemnas and just laid hints left and right and now that Nomura decided on making him a puppet you now have wasted potential.
 

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Now they are just puppets Xehanort is controlling.
There isn't individualism because they aren't doing anything for their own ends or goals after DDD. It was all for the voice of that old creepy person inside.
At this point I can't fully agree to this. Just because they are working toward MX's goal doesn't mean it isn't also what they want, or that MX is literally controlling them like puppets. Idk. Something about this perspective feels off to me.

His acceptance of who he grows to be also kills it since he doesn't seem to interested in being anyone other than the old Xehanort.
I felt that there were hints that he wasn't happy with his future, particularly in the scene where he shows Sora the first time he met Ansem, but I could definitely be reading into it and it's more than possible it won't be developed further.

The flip-flopping honestly was always the most intriguing part of the older debates.
It was intriguing, but it always felt kind of aimless. Like there wasn't an actual answer they were just throwing shit at the wall. But that's how a lot of KH2 shakes out.
 

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At this point I can't fully agree to this. Just because they are working toward MX's goal doesn't mean it isn't also what they want, or that MX is literally controlling them like puppets. Idk. Something about this perspective feels off to me.


I felt that there were hints that he wasn't happy with his future, particularly in the scene where he shows Sora the first time he met Ansem, but I could definitely be reading into it and it's more than possible it won't be developed further.
People have disagreed with me on that point before but from what I can tell mostly because they dont like it as possible.
Until we're actually shown something anywhere close to an individual mindset, desire, goal or disagreement with Xehanorts plans they are basically just his puppets.
Nothing they have done in the series was for their own ends or gain or even for a sense of individualistic desire/persona. DDD all but cemented that.

I didn't see no hints. YX's tone and attitude was basically the same throughout the entire game to me. He explained something and went on about Xehanorts business. I saw no individuality.
The closest we got to an outburst was him attacking Riku but some members spammed quotes about how it was the old Xehanort controlling him while it happened so derp on that.

The closest you have to an individual Xehanort is Braig and possibly Isa. Terras ship has been sailed for a decade in-universe now.
 
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People have disagreed with me on that point before but from what I can tell mostly because they dont like it as possible.
I can see it as possible, but, nah. Maybe it is just that I don't care enough about Ansem/Xemnas/etc to commit to such a strong position. I see it more as their goals align because it's what they want, that it is simpler for an already complicated plot to have the villains largely on the same page. I obviously agree that they don't show divergent desires, but I don't think that's the same as saying that they are all literally puppets that MX is controlling, as if they all would hold hugely dissenting desires otherwise.

Until we're actually shown something anywhere close to an individual mindset, desire, goal or disagreement with Xehanorts plans they are basically just his puppets.
See this just seems a bit too extreme a point. Like if people on the same side agree to the same mission than they are all just puppets of the person leading the charge. I am of course over-generalizing in that statement, but I feel that reflects the broadness of yours in turn. If that makes sense.

I didn't see no hints. YX's tone and attitude was basically the same throughout the entire game to me. He explained something and went on about Xehanorts business. I saw no individuality.
And I did. *shrugs*
I see it in the aforementioned scene, but also in things like his scene in Fantasia, parts of his comments in the ending. It's subtle, and again, it might be something largely in my own interpretation, but when playing through there was enough there for me to see it.
 

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I can see it as possible, but, nah. Maybe it is just that I don't care enough about Ansem/Xemnas/etc to commit to such a strong position. I see it more as their goals align because it's what they want, that it is simpler for an already complicated plot to have the villains largely on the same page. I obviously agree that they don't show divergent desires, but I don't think that's the same as saying that they are all literally puppets that MX is controlling, as if they all would hold hugely dissenting desires otherwise.


See this just seems a bit too extreme a point. Like if people on the same side agree to the same mission than they are all just puppets of the person leading the charge. I am of course over-generalizing in that statement, but I feel that reflects the broadness of yours in turn. If that makes sense.


And I did. *shrugs*
Jimmy: You say potato, and I say:
Billie: Potahto??

Sorry lol irrelevant to this whole conversation

Anyways, I thought he was cool. He seemed calm, collected, and calculated in his movements; it's almost as he was even colder as a child. It's chilling to think that Xehanort always seemed to be like this
 

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I can see it as possible, but, nah. Maybe it is just that I don't care enough about Ansem/Xemnas/etc to commit to such a strong position. I see it more as their goals align because it's what they want, that it is simpler for an already complicated plot to have the villains largely on the same page. I obviously agree that they don't show divergent desires, but I don't think that's the same as saying that they are all literally puppets that MX is controlling, as if they all would hold hugely dissenting desires otherwise.

See this just seems a bit too extreme a point. Like if people on the same side agree to the same mission than they are all just puppets of the person leading the charge. I am of course over-generalizing in that statement, but I feel that reflects the broadness of yours in turn. If that makes sense.

And I did. *shrugs*
I see it in the aforementioned scene, but also in things like his scene in Fantasia, parts of his comments in the ending. It's subtle, and again, it might be something largely in my own interpretation, but when playing through there was enough there for me to see it.
The position isn't so much of strong caring but dismissal. To me a strong position would be yours which maintains individualism when they've never shown it. That's a perspective thing I guess though.
That's just it about the whole ordeal. The plans dont align it's all one plan, the old mans plan. It'd only be an aligning if Ansem & Xemnas had plans of their own coinciding with Xehanorts but they dont. It was all for Xehanort. Xehanorts whole scheme revolves around making others into himself, not recruiting individuals for their individuality.

It doesn't make sense as I am not over-generalizing. I am basing it on 13yrs of these villains and the individual parts in the series. What was once possible individuality is now just Xehanort controlling 13 people to meet his ends.
There isn't a broad view for the sake of one, it's a view taken and made from watching them for so long and not seeing one ounce of individual nature or planning.

I saw nothing but him explaining Xehanorts plans. He was nothing but stoic to me. Just as you think I'm over-generalizing I get the impression you see more than there is on some part of liking to the young Xehanort character maybe?

Yeahhhh this is obviously not gonna end with a consensus. Lets just agree to disagree and drop it. It's apparent we both pay close attention to the series but your seeing individual nature where I see none. It's impossible for me too until they actually do something that is of individual will.
 

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To me a strong position would be yours which maintains individualism when they've never shown it.
My position is really the equivalent of a shrug tho lol.

The plans dont align it's all one plan, the old mans plan. It'd only be an aligning if Ansem & Xemnas had plans of their own coinciding with Xehanorts but they dont.
It's all in the service of getting Kingdom Hearts which is what they all want. Ejgbhgjfvrvijrg. I really don't care enough about this to keep going lol.

I saw nothing but him explaining Xehanorts plans.
Not every line of dialogue he has is specifically about explaining Xehanort's plan, lol. It definitely is much like that very close to the end. But he appears in almost every world before that, too.

Just as you think I'm over-generalizing I get the impression you see more than there is on some part of liking to the young Xehanort character maybe?
I only like the Young Xehanort character because I feel that there is more and that moments in the game led me to that feeling. If I didn't perceive such things than I wouldn't have cared about his character in the first place. It's not like I started the game already liking a character that had barely been introduced.

Yeahhhh this is obviously not gonna end with a consensus. Lets just agree to disagree and drop it.
Capital idea.
 

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This may sound odd, but when it was revealed that the big plan was to essentially eliminate individuality among the 13 darknesses, I thought, "Hey, that's actually not a half bad plan on Xehanort's part." If there's one cliche I'm very familiar with, it's the one where a group of villains tears itself apart by in-fighting before the hero even gets a chance to have at em. The in-fighting usually is caused by general greed and selfishness, with a side of ambition and/or lust for power. This is exactly what happened to the original Organization before.

Perhaps this takes away Xemnas' and Ansem's individualities, but I figure it has a justifiable reason. The lack of petty squabbling and conflicting interests may be less interesting to watch, but it'd be very OOC for Xehanort to not try and cover all his bases in every way possible.
 

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This may sound odd, but when it was revealed that the big plan was to essentially eliminate individuality among the 13 darknesses, I thought, "Hey, that's actually not a half bad plan on Xehanort's part." If there's one cliche I'm very familiar with, it's the one where a group of villains tears itself apart by in-fighting before the hero even gets a chance to have at em. The in-fighting usually is caused by general greed and selfishness, with a side of ambition and/or lust for power. This is exactly what happened to the original Organization before.

Perhaps this takes away Xemnas' and Ansem's individualities, but I figure it has a justifiable reason. The lack of petty squabbling and conflicting interests may be less interesting to watch, but it'd be very OOC for Xehanort to not try and cover all his bases in every way possible.
It makes me also ask the question: What happened to the plot point where Axel and Saix wanted to overthrow the organization? I know that Axel still hated the organization by the end, but I wonder if Saix maybe not being entirely loyal to Xehanort will be a wrench in his plan for KHIII? I think it would be an interesting thing to your "everyone has the same goal" idea that everyone seems to have so far
 

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It makes me also ask the question: What happened to the plot point where Axel and Saix wanted to overthrow the organization? I know that Axel still hated the organization by the end, but I wonder if Saix maybe not being entirely loyal to Xehanort will be a wrench in his plan for KHIII? I think it would be an interesting thing to your "everyone has the same goal" idea that everyone seems to have so far
As far as I can tell, everyone except for Demyx, Luxord and Roxas had some kind of scheme going on, and half of them were plots to take over the Organization.

Here's what I make of it: Saix started out with a plot to take over, but the fragment of Xehanort in him began to override that. Aside from that cameo in BBS, I don't think we've ever seen him without the pointy ears and amber eyes, so the change has been progressing gradually for some time now.

I doubt that using an individual with a past of premeditated insurrection as a vessel would be much of a problem. I mean, they were planning to use Sora, the antithesis of everything they've stood for and one of the last people who would ever willingly side with Xehanort. Saix might be savable, but past loyalty issues or not, he's stuck in there pretty deep as of now.
 

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I wasn't too surprised by the fact itself, it was actually just nice to have it confirmed and have Sora finally know about it. :D
 

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My position is really the equivalent of a shrug tho lol.

It's all in the service of getting Kingdom Hearts which is what they all want. Ejgbhgjfvrvijrg. I really don't care enough about this to keep going lol.

Not every line of dialogue he has is specifically about explaining Xehanort's plan, lol. It definitely is much like that very close to the end. But he appears in almost every world before that, too.
So was mine yet neither of us believe the other on that now do we? lol

What matters isn't what their getting but who it's being got for. lmao You say that yet keep replying as I do. lol

I never said every word was about the plan but nothing ever showed more to me. All I see is the Bishi-Nor that's...just sorta there to help fill out those 13 spots.

Aaaannnndddd finally gonna leave it be. It's been forever since I seen someone actually agree to disagree. You sir are a long lost rare breed.

This may sound odd, but when it was revealed that the big plan was to essentially eliminate individuality among the 13 darknesses, I thought, "Hey, that's actually not a half bad plan on Xehanort's part." If there's one cliche I'm very familiar with, it's the one where a group of villains tears itself apart by in-fighting before the hero even gets a chance to have at em. The in-fighting usually is caused by general greed and selfishness, with a side of ambition and/or lust for power. This is exactly what happened to the original Organization before.

Perhaps this takes away Xemnas' and Ansem's individualities, but I figure it has a justifiable reason. The lack of petty squabbling and conflicting interests may be less interesting to watch, but it'd be very OOC for Xehanort to not try and cover all his bases in every way possible.
It's definitely a good idea on Xehanorts part. Versions from the past are even less of a threat because he's the one pulling them forward. Take away the individuality (what little they had if they had it) and bring them from the past which requires his presence existence to pull them there.

About the only ones that could actually turn on him are present versions like Braig. Any past version doesn't really get anything from double crossing Xehanort thanks to the "cant change history" jargon.
 

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I guess the biggest hit was Xemnas, but I never really felt like Xemnas has consistent characterization anyway. The series seemed to keep flip-flopping on whether or not he was Terra-ish or not too many times. And then Days came around and gave him his worst most asinine characterization yet (like all the members in Days). So, eh.
Xemnas was who I was mainly thinking of when I wrote my post. Even in the “20 Mysteries of the Series” interview, Nomura said that Xemnas was looking for the Chamber of Waking to find Ven. He calls Aqua’s armor “friend” in the Chamber of Repose. He definitely seemed to have Terra memories, which is why the idea introduced in DDD that he was willingly following along with MX’s plan just rubs me the wrong way.


As far as the others go, the fact that their individual actions were all part of MX’s master plan just makes them so much less interesting and unique, at least for me.


I think the thing that harms Xemnas is that his antagonism isn't really personal to any of the characters. Like Ansem and Riku have a history and it feels personal between them. MX feels personal to the BBS trio. Xemnas doesn't really have that with any of the characters. The closest is Roxas, but even that was incredibly under-developed in Days and subsequent games.
Agreed. Days was such a huge missed opportunity as far as Xemnas-Roxas interaction is concerned, especially in light of BBS. I think Xemnas has, what, maybe five minutes of screen time in the whole game?


This may sound odd, but when it was revealed that the big plan was to essentially eliminate individuality among the 13 darknesses, I thought, "Hey, that's actually not a half bad plan on Xehanort's part." If there's one cliche I'm very familiar with, it's the one where a group of villains tears itself apart by in-fighting before the hero even gets a chance to have at em. The in-fighting usually is caused by general greed and selfishness, with a side of ambition and/or lust for power. This is exactly what happened to the original Organization before.

Perhaps this takes away Xemnas' and Ansem's individualities, but I figure it has a justifiable reason. The lack of petty squabbling and conflicting interests may be less interesting to watch, but it'd be very OOC for Xehanort to not try and cover all his bases in every way possible.
It definitely makes sense, no question. I just don't find it compelling or engaging. Part of the reason why I loved CoM was because of all the backstabbing, drama, and infighting, lol.
 
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