victim blaming

[Goldpanner]

I thought this was interesting.

The law discriminates against rape victims in a manner which would not be tolerated by victims of any other crime. In the following example, a holdup victim is asked questions similar in form to those usually asked a victim of rape. “Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of 16th and Locust?”
“Yes.”
“Did you struggle with the robber?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“He was armed.”
“Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than to resist?”
“Yes.”
“Did you scream? Cry out?”
“No. I was afraid.”
“I see. Have you ever been held up before?”
“No.”
“Have you ever given money away?”
“Yes, of course–”
“And did you do so willingly?”
“What are you getting at?”
“Well, let’s put it like this, Mr. Smith. You’ve given away money in the past–in fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren’t contriving to have your money taken from you by force?”
“Listen, if I wanted–”
“Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith?”
“About 11 p.m.”
“You were out on the streets at 11 p.m.? Doing what?”
“Just walking.”
“Just walking? You know it’s dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren’t you aware that you could have been held up?”
“I hadn’t thought about it.”
“What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith?”
“Let’s see. A suit. Yes, a suit.”
“An expensive suit?”
“Well–yes.”
“In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically advertised the fact that you might be a good target for some easy money, isn’t that so? I mean, if we didn’t know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think you were asking for this to happen, mightn’t we?”
“Look, can’t we talkin about the past history of the guy who did this to me?”
“I’m afraid not, Mr. Smith. I don’t think you would want to violate his rights, now, would you?”

Does this make you think? Or not really?

 

[Orion]

I recall something similar where _EX basically said girls that dress to look good/dress scantily and go to a party with alcohol are basically at blame if they get raped.

Which, of course, I believe to be completely false, not to mention unconcionable. If I were to dress in a suit, I don't do it with the knowledge or intention of it increasing my chances of being mugged. I'd wear a suit because it makes me feel and look good. Same goes for the girls at the party.

 

[Goldpanner]

I remember that argument all too well :/ I think it derailed pretty badly by the end.

The part about resisting gets me, too. I think you'd find that in situations like that, many people would automatically try to just go along with things in case we get hurt. I know I've been intimidated by creepy and forceful men before, especially drunk ones, and my first instinct is not to scream and punch them, it's to make myself as small and uninteresting as possible and hope they lose interest.

Imagine if they didn't lose interest. If the worst possible outcome is being murdered, at what point should I stop hoping it won't get worse...?

That's being dramatic in the context of my experiences, but sadly that wouldn't be the case for everyone.

 

[Alaude Drenxta]

During questioning, police are harsh and very scrutinizing, they have to be, it's their job. What they do in practice, however, is quite different. However, yes, they will grill the victim thoroughly so they can be absolutely certain that a crime has truly taken place, to ensure that it isn't fraud. Criminal fraud is a huge issue, they have to be certain.

So long as at the end of the day the attacker meets justice, it's considered an acceptable practice to be suspicious of the victim initially. I don't see that as unfair.

 

[Square Ninja]

During questioning, police are harsh and very scrutinizing, they have to be, it's their job.

scrutinizing? perhaps. harsh? the hell if they have to be

So long as at the end of the day the attacker meets justice, it's considered an acceptable practice to be suspicious of the victim initially. I don't see that as unfair.

imagine yourself getting your tender butthole reamed with a knife to your throat in a dark alley somewhere then having the cops insinuate it's entirely your fault

 

[Oberon]

I agree that people should be at least aware of the fact that they could be easy prey for things like rape or robbery, but they shouldn't be held accountable or blamed. It just happened to be the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Alaude Drenxta]

scrutinizing? perhaps. harsh? the hell if they have to be

Maybe harsh wasn't the right word, but my point still stands.

imagine yourself getting your tender butthole reamed with a knife to your throat in a dark alley somewhere then having the cops insinuate it's entirely your fault

And yet they can't just take it on face value that you actually WERE raped, when it comes to show that most accusations of rape are actually false. I'm certainly not saying they have any right to jump down here throat after they are certain that she was in fact raped, but if there is any suspicion, they are required by both duty and law to investigate to the best of the ability, similar to a doctor's Hippocratic oath.

 

[Pirates]

I take a very emotionless/neutral stance on this subject in my mind.

The person in the example was to blame for some of what happened, he obviously made conscious choices to get in that situation. To me, that means he has blame. The robber is obviously the bad guy in the situation though. I dont deny that one bit.

The problem people have with this view is that they think "blame" is something negative, something reserved for those who are evil and wrong.
To me, it is just a neutral word. You are to blame to an extent, yet you are not the bad guy in this situation.
Think about it. The way we would decribe the bad guy in this example, the robber, would be something like "its all your fault," or something similar.
We almost never use the word in a positive sense so its easy to see how it conveys that negative meaning, when the definition is purely neutral

 

[Professor Ven]

So it's like one kid taking a muffin from another kid after the first kid grabs the second by his shirt collar and uses force to take said muffin and then some kid who thinks he's super Joe decides to find out who took the muffin by force.

I honestly wouldn't feel humiliated. Just disappointed, smell like jail, and overall flustered; disappointed I can't carve the would-be thief's right hand off for his deviation against authority's rules.

 

[Ulti]

If our clothes determined if we wanted to get robbed or raped, we'd all be wearing trash bags.

Srsly, this is stupid. No one asks to be a victim. If you get raped, you are not at fault. If you get robbed, you are not at fault. Anyone who says otherwise is heartless.

 

[Pirates]

If our clothes determined if we wanted to get robbed or raped, we'd all be wearing trash bags.

Srsly, this is stupid. No one asks to be a victim. If you get raped, you are not at fault. If you get robbed, you are not at fault. Anyone who says otherwise is heartless.

Let me ask you this.

One time at school, I tried to get a kid angry, by saying mean things (just normal stuff that I knew would make him snap), to the point where he would hit me and I could get him expelled. It didnt work because he didnt snap like I had intended but imagine if it had.

Would I be a victim of a violent assault if I told someone to shut up?

 

[Taochan]

Let me ask you this.

One time at school, I tried to get a kid angry, by saying mean things (just normal stuff that I knew would make him snap), to the point where he would hit me and I could get him expelled. It didnt work because he didnt snap like I had intended but imagine if it had.

Would I be a victim of a violent assault if I told someone to shut up?

You were instigating the situation by saying mean and hurtful things to him? That's not the same as 'shut up'.
Defending yourself by saying 'shut up' and then getting hit makes you a victim. If your were harassing him to GET him to hit you then you're not a victim. You were intentionally trying to upset him and make him hit you.

 

[Pirates]

You were instigating the situation by saying mean and hurtful things to him? That's not the same as 'shut up'.
Defending yourself by saying 'shut up' and then getting hit makes you a victim. If your were harassing him to GET him to hit you then you're not a victim. You were intentionally trying to upset him and make him hit you.

This guy happened to take offence to everything, or so i thought.

He wouldve attacked me for saying stup up in defense, just not this time.

So I am not the victim because I made a choice that lead to me getting violently assaulted?

 

[Ulti]

Let me ask you this.

One time at school, I tried to get a kid angry, by saying mean things (just normal stuff that I knew would make him snap), to the point where he would hit me and I could get him expelled. It didnt work because he didnt snap like I had intended but imagine if it had.

Would I be a victim of a violent assault if I told someone to shut up?

Possibly quite a stupid comeback...


You WANTED him to fight back. You WAAAAANTED that to happen. People who get raped don't go out and WANT to get raped. See? Difference. You instigate. A rape victim doesn't instigate by flashing their tatas and dropping trow.

 

[Goldpanner]

Exactly what Ulti said.

Imagine if you had been walking down the hall minding your own buisness and he fly-kicked you in the face because he felt like doing it and because you happen to be perfect fly-kicking height. Then you are a victim. Are you partly to blame for having chosen to walk down that particular hall at that particular time, and for having your genetics?

That's a slightly closer example.

We almost never use the word in a positive sense so its easy to see how it conveys that negative meaning, when the definition is purely neutral

Sorry, but that's bs.

Definition of BLAME
transitive verb
1. to find fault with : censure <the right to praise or blame a literary work>
2. a) to hold responsible <they blame me for everything>
b) to place responsibility for <blames it on me>

As you can see, blame is in the same group as 'fault' (which is unarguably negative) and 'responsibility'. 'Responsibility' can be either positive or negative, yes, but when sharing 'responsibility' for some kind of negative situation (eg. rape, robbery) the word is definitely negative. And guess what word people use when they are talking about holding negative responsibility? Starts with a b...

And here are some synonyms for blame:

criticize, censure, condemn, denounce, diss, dispraise, fault, knock, pan, reprehend, slag

oh look, all negative.

So what are the antonyms?

extol (also extoll), laud, praise

So the opposites of blame are all positive! Who woulda thunk.

Even etymologically, it stems from the same roots as the word 'blaspheme'...

If you can come up with a sentence in which blame is used in a positive (and non-sarcastic) sense, then I'll be very, very surprised.

 

[Pirates]

Possibly quite a stupid comeback...


You WANTED him to fight back. You WAAAAANTED that to happen. People who get raped don't go out and WANT to get raped. See? Difference. You instigate. A rape victim doesn't instigate by flashing their tatas and dropping trow.

I was arguing the point you made where you said "no one asks to be a victim"

I was checking to see whether or not you think I wouldve been a victim.
All I did was told him to shut up, yet I mightve been horribly assaulted.

Would I be the victim in that situation?

I am the victim of a horrible assault at the very least, so yes.

If you can come up with a sentence in which blame is used in a positive (and non-sarcastic) sense, then I'll be very, very surprised.

I am to blame for my good grades. I hold responsibility for the top marks that I got because I studied.

 

[Goldpanner]

I was arguing the point you made where you said "no one asks to be a victim"

I was checking to see whether or not you think I wouldve been a victim.
All I did was told him to shut up, yet I mightve been horribly assaulted.

Would I be the victim in that situation?

I am the victim of a horrible assault at the very least, so yes.

Unless you specifically said to him, 'punch me in the face', then you didn't technically ask for it. And if you did say that, then you aren't a victim because you explicitly wanted it.

I am to blame for my good grades. I hold responsibility for the top marks that I got because I studied.

No, that's you using the word wrong. You've learned something new today!

If you still don't believe me, you can look it up in any dictionary. I personally trust oxford: definition of blame from Oxford Dictionaries Online

 

[Pirates]

Unless you specifically said to him, 'punch me in the face', then you didn't technically ask for it. And if you did say that, then you aren't a victim because you explicitly wanted it.

So, if I didnt ask, I am a victim?
That means you can choose to be a victim.

No, that's you using the word wrong. You've learned something new today!

If you still don't believe me, you can look it up in any dictionary. I personally trust oxford: definition of blame from Oxford Dictionaries Online

Then why did you post the other defintion that reffered to "responsibility" (a neutral word) before?
make up your mind.

 

[Goldpanner]

So, if I didnt ask, I am a victim?
That means you can choose to be a victim.

So you're saying all people about to be raped should just say 'please rape me' and then it won't be rape! I didn't know the choice was so easy, oh my god you are a genius

Then why did you post the other defintion that reffered to "responsibility" (a neutral word) before?
make up your mind.

I googled 'blame' and quoted the first dictionary I found, which also proved you wrong. I googled five or six and they all said the same thing. The link to oxford was just a life tip I threw in for free

You're obviously confused because I said blame (not neutral) is related to responsibility (neutral). It's that not all dogs are poodles thing.

 

[Ulti]

I was arguing the point you made where you said "no one asks to be a victim"

I was checking to see whether or not you think I wouldve been a victim.
All I did was told him to shut up, yet I mightve been horribly assaulted.

Would I be the victim in that situation?

I am the victim of a horrible assault at the very least, so yes.



I am to blame for my good grades. I hold responsibility for the top marks that I got because I studied.

You aren't a victim if you are a dumbass and poked a tiger in the eye. Just saying dude.