Unbirth Symbol Theory

[Smile]

And that means nothing :\ remember that "birth" - amongst other things, is "by sleep". You can't just assume what they mean by 'birth' is actual, literal, physical birth.
Heartless - lack not an actual Heart, but emotions.
Nobodies - lack not the actual Body, but Identity.
In a sense, both terms are literal, but through a hidden meaning, not the one you'd think of right away.
Assuming the Unbirths follow the same pattern, forever more hold your peace about Unbirths being related to 'life'.
If they don't, you can have such a saying - but we don't know if they do follow the pattern or not.
Hence, nothing can be ascertained at this time, only theorized.

Like in my old Unbirths = Dreams and that gives you a pretty accurate "birth by sleep" relation, as well as Unbirth - since the "Dreamer" is out until he 'wakes up'.

 

[Zexy455]

but he did say that somewhere. that they are "the opposite of human life". i hate to keep pushing that but i do remember him saying that. *sigh* :23: oh well, grr

 

[zillagod]

And that means nothing :\ remember that "birth" - amongst other things, is "by sleep". You can't just assume what they mean by 'birth' is actual, literal, physical birth.
Heartless - lack not an actual Heart, but emotions.
Nobodies - lack not the actual Body, but Identity.
In a sense, both terms are literal, but through a hidden meaning, not the one you'd think of right away.
Assuming the Unbirths follow the same pattern, forever more hold your peace about Unbirths being related to 'life'.
If they don't, you can have such a saying - but we don't know if they do follow the pattern or not.
Hence, nothing can be ascertained at this time, only theorized.

Like in my old Unbirths = Dreams and that gives you a pretty accurate "birth by sleep" relation, as well as Unbirth - since the "Dreamer" is out until he 'wakes up'.

Couldn't have said it better myself, although I do believe he was only theorizing. Either way I was just posting that interview qoute there, which by the way, is all mentioned in the All we know so far about BBS sticky.

 

[WilliamTheWise]

but he did say that somewhere. that they are "the opposite of human life".

Yes he did say that.

 

[Smile]

Yes he did say that.

:v and I'll say it again. Quote or it didn't happen. It's just about the most common misconception about Unbirths around.

 

[zillagod]

:v and I'll say it again. Quote or it didn't happen. It's just about the most common misconception about Unbirths around.

Plus even if that were true usually, like what was said earlier. The names of enemies in Kingdom Hearts such as Heartless, do in fact have a heart. So even if Nomura did say that he could have been trying to mislead people just like he did with Xion, lol.

 

[Zexy455]

in any case, they still most likely relate to the soul (the life of a being) as the heartless relate to the heart and nobodies relate to the body. though technically nobodies have body and soul. like i said before heartLESS have hearts and noBODIES have bodies. so if you look closely at unbirths. birth is obviously life. as many of you have heard that birth is the miracle of life and such. so unBIRTH meaning it is the opposite of life. so even if he didn't say it directly, its all in the name. so like i said before it is MOST likely that unbirths deal with the soul. (sorry just wanna get off the topic of whether he said it or not)

 

[Zeagal]

We don't know if it follows the same pattern, and, imo, it's more likely for it not to since the name doesn't refer to a noun.

 

[Smile]

in any case, they still most likely relate to the soul (the life of a being) as the heartless relate to the heart and nobodies relate to the body. though technically nobodies have body and soul

Nobodies don't "relate" to anything, and it's not 'technically'. they're leftovers, meaning they're equally the soul as they are the Body, both ruled over by Memories.

like i said before heartLESS have hearts and noBODIES have bodies. so if you look closely at unbirths. birth is obviously life. as many of you have heard that birth is the miracle of life and such. so unBIRTH meaning it is the opposite of life.

No, it's not, since the HEART in Heartless isn't really a Heart they're lacking, and the BODY in NOBODIES isn't really a "corpse".
Going by that logic, that HeartLESS are in fact, the Heart, and NObodies are, in fact, the Bodies, Unbirths are sooner to be what gives Birth and Life than the opposite of them :V

so even if he didn't say it directly, its all in the name.

Not really, no.

so like i said before it is MOST likely that unbirths deal with the soul. (sorry just wanna get off the topic of whether he said it or not)

I'd much, much sooner relate them to Memories, seeing how that is the 2nd most important theme in the series aside from the Heart. And if we had a pure Heart, and a Body tainted by Memories, what about something more like 'pure Memories'? If a person forgot everything that ever happened to him (because those Memories were corrupted and somehow leaked out to create an Unbirth), won't the person he used to be 'die'? The Kairi from Radiant Garden. Isn't she possibly a very completely different person than the Kairi we get to see on Destiny Islands, simply because she doesn't remember how she used to be and grew up without having that 'person' as a base?

Days spoilers, sort of.

(And yes, I realize I'm probably piecing together Days' plot to myself. Shut up.)

And of course there's also the possibility that Unbirths are the Being as a Whole that were tarnished, and the Unbirth really does cancel out Life - but by 'Life' they refear to the whole thing, not just one ingridient in it.

So really, please. Stop clinging onto nonsense. Seeing the track record for the series thus far, Unbirths being the cancellation of life makes no sense.
Not to mention it's Un-Disney. (Disney killing off characters =\= Disney being pro-death to such an extent.)

 

[Zexy455]

thats not what i'm saying at all. i'm saying that the name implies they are the opposite of life being an unbirth. not being born. if you're not born you're not alive. and i'm not using this as a descripition of the unbirth, i'm merely just looking at the literal meaning of the name.

why would they use any other pattern than the pattern they've been using. heartless being the heart and nobodies being the body and soul. in the secret ansem report (again, like i said before) there are 3 things that make a being. heart, body, and soul. the heart give the being feeling and emotion. the body just a shell. the soul giving the being life.

heartless are hearts consumed by darkness. nobodies are created when a strong heart is lost to darkness leaving the soul to will the body on. unbirths would have to deal w/ life. birth being the miracle of life. the soul gives a being life meaning the unbirths would have to deal w/ the soul as the heartless deal w/ the heart and nobodies deal w/ the body.

 

[Smile]

thats not what i'm saying at all. i'm saying that the name implies they are the opposite of life being an unbirth. not being born.

The opposite of life doesn't have to be not being born, you know :\ and that's again with what you ASSUME to be the meaning for 'birth'. Which going by track record, isn't literal.

i'm merely just looking at the literal meaning of the name.

Yeah, lose that.

why would they use any other pattern than the pattern they've been using. heartless being the heart and nobodies being the body and soul.

But that is NOT the meaning for the Heart and Body in their names.
And besides, that would mean that the Unbirths are themselves life and birth, not the cancellation of it. Like how the HeartLESS are indeed the Heart. >_>;

heartless are hearts consumed by darkness. nobodies are created when a strong heart is lost to darkness leaving the soul to will the body on.

Dude, no. The soul has nothing going for it other than being an energy source. What 'wills' the Body for a Nobody are two things
1) Memories
2) Sense of Self.
The Soul has nothing going for it. Nothing.

unbirths would have to deal w/ life.

About as much as Heartless do with Heart attacks.

birth being the miracle of life. the soul gives a being life meaning the unbirths would have to deal w/ the soul as the heartless deal w/ the heart and nobodies deal w/ the body.

You can say the same thing as many times as you want, it doesn't change the fact you're still making no sense and are mistaken.
We do not know that the "birth" in Unbirths means the literal thing. Much like Heartless doesn't mean just that.
Like the HeartLESS have a Heart, the Unbirths cannot be the cancellation of life. :\ if you say they go by the same name pattern - which you say they do.

 

[Zexy455]

the only things that are the opposite of life is being unborn hence unbirth or dead. you choose.

But that is NOT the meaning for the Heart and Body in their names.
And besides, that would mean that the Unbirths are themselves life and birth, not the cancellation of it. Like how the HeartLESS are indeed the Heart. >_>;

and THAT is EXACTLY what i'm saying about unbirths! that they are the soul!!! just like heartless ARE the heart!!!!!!!!!

Dude, no. The soul has nothing going for it other than being an energy source. What 'wills' the Body for a Nobody are two things
1) Memories
2) Sense of Self.
The Soul has nothing going for it. Nothing.

have you read the secret ansem reports?! plus idk where people come up w/ this "sense of self" stuff. it is not mentioned anywhere in the game. if you want to know what a nobody is go here: Kingdom Hearts 2 / KH2 / KHII - Secret Ansem Reports and scroll down to report 7. it CLEARLY says that nobodies are a body and soul. nothing about "sense of self".

About as much as Heartless do with Heart attacks.

Now you're just being a jerk.

You can say the same thing as many times as you want, it doesn't change the fact you're still making no sense and are mistaken.
We do not know that the "birth" in Unbirths means the literal thing. Much like Heartless doesn't mean just that.
Like the HeartLESS have a Heart, the Unbirths cannot be the cancellation of life. :\ if you say they go by the same name pattern - which you say they do.

i'm not saying they're the cancellation of life. much like heartless have a heart like you and i said. unbirths DO have life. life in kingdom hearts being represented by the soul.

 

[Smile]

the only things that are the opposite of life is being unborn hence unbirth or dead. you choose.

define 'life'.
and who said it has to be the opposite of it?

and THAT is EXACTLY what i'm saying about unbirths! that they are the soul!!! just like heartless ARE the heart!!!!!!!!!

Sweetie. Birth gives us not only the soul but the Body and Heart, too.

plus idk where people come up w/ this "sense of self" stuff. it is not mentioned anywhere in the game.

It is only by relying upon my anger and hatred that I have been able to retain my sense of self here, where all existence is nullified.

In this realm, where all existence has been disintegrated, I have just barely managed to preserve my sense of self by continuing to think and to write.

When a person's heart is stolen, a Heartless is born with no sense of self, and the body and soul left behind give rise to a Nobody.

Sora and Xehanort retained their selfhood even after becoming Heartless.

Lol.
Also, stop forgetting that Nobodies have Memories to them as well. Stop ignoring Memories, period.

Now you're just being a jerk.

And you're being a sore loser much.

i'm not saying they're the cancellation of life. much like heartless have a heart like you and i said. unbirths DO have life. life in kingdom hearts being represented by the soul.

Again - stop assuming that meaning about Life. It can just as easily be about Memories.
And Heartless are the Hearts, yes, but that is not what the "Heart" in "Heartless" is referring to. So despite the irony, Heartless and Nobodies do not imply what they are made up from.
Or is Namine being a Nobody while lacking both Sora and Kairi's Body not enough of a clue-in?

 

[_EX]

life in kingdom hearts being represented by the soul.

Heartless dont have Souls. Neither did Sora for a while. They lived.

 

[Smile]

Heartless dont have Souls. Neither did Sora for a while. They lived.

That can be somewhat explained by the relation between the Hear/Heartless and the Nobody. So long as the Soul didn't leave the Body, the Being continues to live, even if the parts are separated.
Let's go with that until they give us a better explanation.

 

[Zexy455]

ok. please stop being a jerk. ok, i admit i was wrong about the sense of self and i really do respect how you turned that link around on me haha! but i'm talking about the 3 things that make up a being.

heart, body, and soul just as ansem said in his report.

i'm just saying what makes sense to me. personally. idk why you have this dire need to argue w/ everything i'm saying. i'm not saying its true. it is just a theory after all and no theories can be proven false until the game has actually been released.

now, i understand the nobodies DO have memories and a sense of self but that is not what makes them up. they need a body and a soul. the body is obvious and the soul to give that body life. memories and sense of self are what the stronger nobodies (the organization) have that separates them from the lesser ones.

i just want to discuss this rationally because i feel like this is a personal attack on me. i know that might not be the case but still. so please lets just discuss this and not argue.

 

[_EX]

That can be somewhat explained by the relation between the Hear/Heartless and the Nobody. So long as the Soul didn't leave the Body, the Being continues to live, even if the parts are separated.
Let's go with that until they give us a better explanation.

So if the Soul lives, no matter where it is, the rest of you lives?
That still could prove Zexy wrong. There would be a bunch of people ,in BBS, that are soulless and would probably be really different to regular people because they are missing a soul which we havnt seen.

 

[Smile]

ok. please stop being a jerk.

The only 'jerk'ful thing I'm doing is not letting you crawl into a corner.

heart, body, and soul just as ansem said in his report.

And yet Memories and a Sense of Self that are no doubt born from those Memories are an active force in there, otherwise Nobodies wouldn't have came to be.

idk why you have this dire need to argue w/ everything i'm saying.

Because you're not making sense.

i'm not saying its true. it is just a theory after all and no theories can be proven false until the game has actually been released.

This isn't a theory. It's a bunch of random things you pieced together too loosely. If someone tears it apart, it's not even a theory.

now, i understand the nobodies DO have memories and a sense of self but that is not what makes them up.

It what moves them.

they need a body and a soul.

...NAMINE. DUDE. THE GIRL HAS NEITHER. WAKE UP. All she has is Sora and Kairi's strength and purity of Heart holding her together.

memories and sense of self are what the stronger nobodies (the organization) have that separates them from the lesser ones.

All Nobodies have Memories. It's the strength of the sense of self that differents them. Pay attention.

i just want to discuss this rationally because i feel like this is a personal attack on me.

It comes to show you're new to this place. Hi, I'm SufferingAngel/Rain/Smile.
Your worst nightmare
*cough*
lol.

so please lets just discuss this and not argue.

We are discussing this. We're just not agreeing.

So if the Soul lives, no matter where it is, the rest of you lives?

Nope. If the Soul is still inside the Body, you live, seeing how the separation of those two is what was described as 'death' in the KH verse in the Ansem Reports.

There would be a bunch of people ,in BBS, that are soulless and would probably be really different to regular people because they are missing a soul which we havnt seen.

You call those "Zombies" and they're quite dead.

 

[_EX]

Nope. If the Soul is still inside the Body, you live, seeing how the separation of those two is what was described as 'death' in the KH verse in the Ansem Reports.



You call those "Zombies" and they're quite dead.

So Sora was "dead" for all of CoM and most of KH2?

 

[Smile]

So Sora was "dead" for all of CoM and most of KH2?

No, because Roxas still had both his Body and Soul.
Death = the separation of the Body and the Soul. The Heart can go wherever it wants. So long as Nobodies keep fading into Darkness and not "separate" into their own separate ingredients, we're in the clear.