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Trying to understand "Shibuya" (Re:Mind spoilers)



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Noivern

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So, I've been thinking lately about all the parallels between KH and Versus XII. But I've also took into consideration the possible parallels between KH3 and FFXV, as in the completed game.

KH3 introduced a new concept to the series that was only hinted at before: different worldlines. But there's one other thing that the franchise has been building up ever since the first game, which is the passage of time which eventually evolved into time travel and other shenanigans.

All this time, it seems the consensus between this forum and some other places is that Shibuya is another world, and Yozora is some sort of parallel to Sora, kinda like his version of the hero. And Re:Mind even hinted at Nameless Star being "Stella", which would be a parallel to Kairi as well.

But what if the truth is much simpler than that?

I just could not get my mind out of the conversation between the two before their Boss fight, how skeptic Yozora seems to be. How he reacts to Sora's name, and then to his own name. How the place shifts from the final world to Sora's station of awakening and then finally Shibuya.

All this time, we've been thinking about the comparisons between KH3 and Versus, but Noctis actually lived after that game. We have FFXV. So what if the inspirations go further than we thought? Or more elements from VXII survived into FXV?

This next section is going to feature spoilers for FFXV, so be careful.

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 
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pssst

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Although I think it would be a huge shock and interesting twist to make the Master of Masters a time traveling old Sora, the next series of games would have to feature a gigantic shift personality-wise for me to believe he could be. Sora being the MoM would also require retconning a huge amount of established lore within the game.

But if it’s of any interest I’m going to drop some more theories/info here:
Spoiler Spoiler Show
 
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I posted this in the Luxord thread last week...


With Scala Ad Caelum being the modern day Daybreak Town, do any of you think it's possible that Verum Rex iteration of Shibuya (assuming that the dream Shibuya and the city in the ReMind secret ending are the same) is the future world, and instead of coming from the ancient fairy tale age like Larxene, Ventus, and Marluxia, Luxord is actually a figure from a future timeline? Everyone seems to be assuming that what's being depicted as Yozora's world is either an entirely new world that we haven't yet seen before, or some other worldline like the sleeping worlds in Dream Drop Distance, but what if Yozora's world is the next era of Daybreak Town/Scala Ad Caelum? The world becomes repopulated and becomes highly technologically and governmentally advanced beyond anything we've previously seen in the Kingdom Hearts universe.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Shibuya being the future iteration of a world that we already know. I also like the idea of Yozora being acquainted with Sora through the passing of generation's old fables of his heroics. Perhaps Sora's present state isn't even what he's supposed to be saved from, and there's yet another tragic disappearance in his future?

I don't like the idea of the Master of Masters being a time-traveling Sora, though. A descendant of his, though, I can potentially get behind, depending on the execution of his backstory and motivations.

Frankly, I'd much rather more time travel crap than more FFVXIII salt.
 

AmaryllisMoth

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Although I think it would be a huge shock and interesting twist to make the Master of Masters a time traveling old Sora, the next series of games would have to feature a gigantic shift personality-wise for me to believe he could be.

I agree, the Master is very different in personality to Sora. While both could be considered generally "carefree" in a sense, that is pretty much it. Especially the Master's line about how the other people involved in the war of his past being not particularly relevant. There is no way in hell that Sora would ever say his friends were irrelevant. Sora also doesn't have the same sense of...experimentation? that we see in the Master. Let's just say Sora doesn't really come across as much of a scientist, really.

If, however, we are looking at alternate dimensions that progress at different speeds, I suppose if the Master was from the timeline where everyone died (yet he somehow survived) I could see him maybe as being significantly altered because of that. To lose all your friends and your hope could really warp a personality significantly. The only other possibility I can think of is if there is some version of Sora that never made it back to Kairi. She's very often been stated to be like the glue that holds his heart together. If he is never able to get back to her maybe that would be enough to make him desperate enough to try anything, including science experiments of sorts.

Regardless, if he really is Sora, none of those two situations would address the issue as to why the Master would both remember and not remember his time with his friends. If he remembers it enough to talk (at least in brief) about the war, he wouldn't have lost all his memories. But if he still has his memories of the time, wouldn't Sora be aware that he is literally causing a time loop of sorts by sending Luxu out to manipulate the Keyblade War which would eventually cause himself to disappear or split off into a different world line? It just seems...weird and pointless.

It also doesn't make sense, then, if Xehanort knew the Master's name. Wouldn't he then be freaking out a bit more about Sora and not constantly be dismissing him as a stupid, ordinary boy?

There is something fishy going on, for sure, and regardless of if Sora is the Master or not there is definitely some reason why Yozora would be confused about his appearance, and the most obvious answer would be because there is another Sora somewhere that Yozora either met or knew of first.
 
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It also doesn't make sense, then, if Xehanort knew the Master's name. Wouldn't he then be freaking out a bit more about Sora and not constantly be dismissing him as a stupid, ordinary boy?

It's a good point (although Xehanort does seem rather taken with Sora and making him his vessel when he describes as a dull, ordinary boy in DDD, and he recognises his importance). And I think you can extend the point to everyone else Xehanort has met. Is there anyone Xehanort treats in a way consistent with him knowing that he is a Lost Master? I can't think of any; he seems to treat friend and foe alike with little regard and as being disposable and means to an end.

If you accept that then that would mean the MoM is somebody Xehanort has not met, so someone from X, UX, or a never before seen character (possibly from Yozora's world).

OR

The MoM gave Xehanort a false name or alias, and has encountered Xehanort elsewhere in a different guise and name. I think this isn't so unlikely given that he actually tells Xehanort to not believe what he hears just before he tells Xehanort his name.
 

Noivern

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I agree, the Master is very different in personality to Sora. While both could be considered generally "carefree" in a sense, that is pretty much it. Especially the Master's line about how the other people involved in the war of his past being not particularly relevant. There is no way in hell that Sora would ever say his friends were irrelevant. Sora also doesn't have the same sense of...experimentation? that we see in the Master. Let's just say Sora doesn't really come across as much of a scientist, really.
When I talk about the possibility of him being a version of Sora, we have to take into consideration that not only events would have unfolded differently, but time passed too. MoM is already an adult, possibly an ancient being in terms of age, even. So a lot happened through his life to get him to his current persona. Plus, almost everything he says and the way he acts is forced, like he's acting. I don't think thats his true persona at all.

If you accept that then that would mean the MoM is somebody Xehanort has not met, so someone from X, UX, or a never before seen character (possibly from Yozora's world).

OR

The MoM gave Xehanort a false name or alias, and has encountered Xehanort elsewhere in a different guise and name. I think this isn't so unlikely given that he actually tells Xehanort to not believe what he hears just before he tells Xehanort his name.

I don't think we need to go that far into theorycrafting regarding that scene because Xehanort, as a whole, kept a lot of information from others, as well as that happening over 74 years ago. If, somehow, the MoM is actually Sora and he told his true name to MX, a lot happened through the years to dampen his perception of the meaning behind that name. Honestly, the only time Xehanort actually acts genuinely surprised is when Sora tells him he's not the only one with the ability to time travel anymore, really.

Plus, even if the MoM is somehow Sora, that doesn't mean that's all that he is. He could have gotten another name later on and that is the name he gives to YX and he's not lying either because that's still him.

It's like how Lea decides to keep going by Axel even though that's not his original name, but it's still his name.
 
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Honestly, the only time Xehanort actually acts genuinely surprised is when Sora tells him he's not the only one with the ability to time travel anymore, really.

Plus, even if the MoM is somehow Sora, that doesn't mean that's all that he is. He could have gotten another name later on and that is the name he gives to YX and he's not lying either because that's still him.
Yeah I agree that a different name is much more likely than one made up on the spot.

And the fact that Sora can time travel would make his adult self's appearance in the past more feasible.

Incidentally, I remember Terranort being surprised about the time travel but later MX seems to expect it in Scala, which I found strange. Maybe he could somehow see what his past self saw (pretty sure he shouldn't be able to though)
 

Noivern

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Yeah I agree that a different name is much more likely than one made up on the spot.

And the fact that Sora can time travel would make his adult self's appearance in the past more feasible.

Incidentally, I remember Terranort being surprised about the time travel but later MX seems to expect it in Scala, which I found strange. Maybe he could somehow see what his past self saw (pretty sure he shouldn't be able to though)

Considering how much inspiration KH takes from Star Wars and the whole FFXV situation, I would be quite surprised if MoM is not related to Sora in any way as a family member, but the fact that we can even theorize of MoM being a future version of Sora and make it seem feasible is wild in itself.

It would also not be the first time a seemingly "normal boy" turned out to be pretty important, it also happened with Ventus. Twice.

I think the key to this might be the Kingdom Hearts itself. It allowed MX to summon a whole world from his past into his projected heart, and it is the heart of all worlds after all. The MoM seems to be fading in and out of existance since he shows up just fine for YX even though he was missing, and it doesn't seem to have been caused by the Ark from UX's last updates either.
It reminds me of Sora's fading in and out of time in Re;Mind.
 

SuperSaiyanSora

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If, however, we are looking at alternate dimensions that progress at different speeds, I suppose if the Master was from the timeline where everyone died (yet he somehow survived) I could see him maybe as being significantly altered because of that. To lose all your friends and your hope could really warp a personality significantly. The only other possibility I can think of is if there is some version of Sora that never made it back to Kairi. She's very often been stated to be like the glue that holds his heart together. If he is never able to get back to her maybe that would be enough to make him desperate enough to try anything, including science experiments of sorts.

Hmm. I know how this could work. If, hypothetically speaking, Sora is the Master of Masters... Then going off your idea, the perfect time for that to happen would be when everyone died and Sora was the only one who didn't die completely because of Kairi.

What if instead of using the Power of Waking to save everyone, Sora chose not to? What if after collecting himself, he just went back to the Keyblade Graveyard and didn't revert time? I don't think this is what happened, but if MoM = Sora, this would be a pretty integral time for a change of scenario.

I also wanna say that, people think that it's impossible for Sora to be the Master of Masters because of Sora's personality, but... Understand that Sora is still 15. The Master of Masters is clearly a grown man, clearly WAY older than we think he is. Y'know how people cringe at their teenage self after they've been adults for quite some time? That's because you've grown and changed as a person, your whole viewpoint on life is completely different from how it would've been at 15. It happens all the time in the real world, so it's not impossible for some really terrible things to happen to Sora and over time, he drastically changed as a person.

Even if he isn't the Master of Masters, Sora at 25 is going to be a hell of a lot different than Sora at 15. Look at how much Riku changed from 15-16, he went through a growth spurt and changed completely in a year from a cocky but jealous and impulsive kid to a mature, kind and sort of dorky young man.

The MoM gave Xehanort a false name or alias, and has encountered Xehanort elsewhere in a different guise and name. I think this isn't so unlikely given that he actually tells Xehanort to not believe what he hears just before he tells Xehanort his name.

I believe this is what happened, because in the next cutscene (75 years later), the guy says, "I don't know who he was, and perhaps I never will." Which is strange when last cutscene just showed that the MoM told him his name and the fact that he's a Lost Master (which is true... but isn't the full story). Xehanort seems surprised at the name reveal, so if this is at a time when Xehanort hadn't yet devoted himself to darkness, the name the MoM probably gave him is something he recognized.

But yeah, there's no guarantee that the name he gave Xehanort was real, since he was mentioning "the truth is what you see with your eyes, not what you hear." (Which is wrong anyway, because look what happened to Riku just by looking through a dusty window in KH1 with Maleficent)
 

Xblade13

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Maybe Xehanort was obsessed with Sora because of the name (having the same name as that man he once met so long ago). But, as Sora had not shown anything remarkable about himself other than the Power of Friendship, that is what leads to Xehanort calling him "a dull, ordinary boy, so unlike any Keyblade wielder I have ever seen". He is actually disappointed Sora isn't the Sora he knew, at least not yet. Theoretically, either the Master is Sora from the future after a lot of horrible stuff happens to him, or he's the Sora from the opposite side of the Tear in time, and without his friends he had to fight Xehanort alone, or watch as he won.

So basically, if the Master is indeed an adult Sora somehow, than it isn't impossible for Xehanort to have known this. Hence his obsession over Sora from the beginning of the series, pretty much all the way back to the Organization and Ansem SoD. He thought he had finally met perhaps the younger version of the man he had seen before, only to be disappointed when he wasn't from the past like Ventus or showing any crazy knowledge or power. How could the two be the same? Still, it would be worth investigating fully, and thus the need to make him into a vessel.

This is hypothetical of course. I don't think the MoM is Sora,, but I'm not discrediting the idea either. As said in another post above, Xehanort seemed surprised by the name. Could have been his own, Eraqus, someone else he knew shared that name. Could be etherial, like Darkness or Light, Kingdom Hearts could be the guys name for all we know.

Plot Twist: The Master of Masters is named "Ansem", and that's why Xehanort stole Ansem the Wise's name. He figured the name had been "stolen" by Ansem the Wise himself, when it could've been familial or just coincidence. Lol.
 
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I found a neat argument in support of the MoM's name being Sora which I will quote here.

'It's also interesting to note that the Master tells Xehanort his name in the scene at the start of ReMind, and what Xehanort hears surprises him. The audience doesn't hear the name, but later in ReMind's secret episode, Yozora asks Sora why he's using that name.
So far we've seen three Kingdom Hearts characters in Yozora's world; Sora, Riku, and the Master. It's possible that the Master is future Sora and has interacted with Yozora, leading him to wonder why the actual Sora is using a name he's assigned to someone else.'

I am not fully convinced but it's a clever idea.

Here's the article I quoted
 

Ballad of Caius

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I don't think I saw Xehanort "surprised". He just looked normal. I'm more inclined to believe that "Sora" is Nameless Star's name (Not!Stella). But there is a possibility that the MoM's name could have a reference to "sky", seeing as how all worlds share one sky, hinting at his apparent omnipresence.
 
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I don't think I saw Xehanort "surprised". He just looked normal. I'm more inclined to believe that "Sora" is Nameless Star's name (Not!Stella). But there is a possibility that the MoM's name could have a reference to "sky", seeing as how all worlds share one sky, hinting at his apparent omnipresence.
Perhaps, but the Star indicated that the person they were waiting for would want to find them if they regained their memories, because of a personal connection. Yozora said he had been told to save Sora and didn't seem to have a deep personal connection to the task (hard to tell though) and assumedly he hasn't yet regained his heart, which had been 'replaced by that of another', so I think he's not trying to save the Nameless Star yet (and Yozora didn't show any interest in 'that girl' when Sora mentioned her.)

Another thought about the MoM. If he is in Shibuya as the original secret movie suggests, does that mean he needs to be 'saved' to return to the world too? We know that he will return but he didn't show up in the epilogue so maybe the plan for his return has one more step involving Sora and Yozora.
 
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