Trying to fully understand this forsaken game

[Sephiroth0812]

^ Which supports Xehanorts explanation of the timeline that events truly can't be altered. Which is why any traveler from the past to the future immediately loses their memories upon return.

As Young Xehanort stated "Even though one can move through time, time itself is immovable"
The timeline in kingdom hearts always corrects itself in some form or fashion.

This is also most likely why the Xehanorts seemingly could only all be present at the end of DDD for a set amount of time.

Exactly, this brings us to explanations for more than one issue with the time travelling stuff.
It's not like you cannot try to alter the timeline by going into the past, like i.e. Aqua could try to travel to the past and interfere in the afternath of Terra's battle with MX (i.e. like acting like a tennis player and swat MX's floating heart back to him before it can reach Terra's body) or Lea travelling back in time to throw a chakram into Riku's back before he can turn into Ansem SoD and capture Roxas.
It may even look at first as if it's going to work, but then there will be inevitably another event that occurs which somehow ensures that what happened in the original timeline still comes to pass anyways.
Of course, any of those "self correcting" events would be forgotten by everyone involved because they never really happened, they just cancel out another event that was not meant to happen because someone tried to alter something that was already carved into the universe's history.
Depending on where "the marker" is that signals the univeral "present" (which may be the finale of DDD), any events before DDD are not part of the future anymore and thus cannot be truly altered.

The Timeless River is a great example really, pete used a special door to enter the past and in order to counter it a second door also existed which Merlin summoned.

Yep, what's even more interesting is that the door for Pete only appeared after he was chewed out by Maleficent for being a failure and he longed for the easier days of his past. The worlds literally gave Pete a chance, a chance to reform by just looking at his past life in order to maybe return to that life in the present. It could also be treated as a test of character for Pete administered by the worlds.
But instead of taking that chance he informs Maleficent about it who immediately decides to use it as an advantage for their schemes and commit a highly immoral thing by trying to change the past. Hence the worlds already preparing that second door for SDG as a counterforce to ensure everything would go back on track as it should be, with Merlin the great wizard being the medium the worlds chose to reveal this particular door.

 

[Solo]

Just because all turned out well doesn't mean the timeline is self-consistent. The future was altered before Sora & Co were also sent in the past, we've seen it. Just because they've undone the harm doesn't mean it wasn't done, because that's what's self-consitency means.

I realized I have to be more precise to show my point: In a self-consistent timeline the thorns would have never appeared, in KHII we see them disappear.

I'm about to present one more principle. It might be a poor way of responding by doing this, but we don't know how time in KH exactly works other than it being unalterable, so I hope you'll excuse me.

While Novikov self-consistency principle is preventive in nature, there's another principle that's curative in nature, and that's conveniently called the self-healing principle. It says that when time has detected a trauma, instead of before, it will do everything in its power to resolve the root cause of the problem, and thus stopping the progression of the "disease" and preventing any lasting damage.

When applied to the events of Timeless River in KH2, this can still work. Time itself, having experienced trauma by seeing Pete tamper with the Cornerstone of Light, was quick to somehow alert Minnie about the problem. In turn, Minnie then alerted Merlin, who summoned SDG and sent them to past to act as time's agent, or rather the "medicine", to rectify the wrong that Pete had done. Upon succeeding, the thorns disappeared, and no lasting damage was done.

Of course one could argue that there's always the chance that they might not act fast enough to prevent alterations from happening, but nobody can neither prove nor disprove it. The same goes for the other end of the spectrum: the argument saying that time will always succeed, somehow, in its quest to heal itself.

In both self-consistency and self-healing principles, time acts as a sentient being, and yes, it may sound dubious and crazy, especially the latter. But they both lead to the same outcome, which is the presence of only one known timeline.

 

[ShardofTruth]

I'm about to present one more principle. It might be a poor way of responding by doing this, but we don't know how time in KH exactly works other than it being unalterable, so I hope you'll excuse me.

That's the point, we don't know it's unalterable, that's just the case for the "leave your body behind" method and even then why does everyone assume that Master Xehanort is correct when he was wrong before (and will be proven wrong again in KHIII) while KHII presented a case where it is alterable?
I could counter argue just by pointing at KHII, saying: "Yeah, in Kingdom Hearts time travels works like in the Back to the Future movies and Master Xehanort is just too stupid to find himself a door to the past or a skilled magician." Speaking of which, the Disney franchise has enough evil magicians who could help Xehanort with his plan.

Another event of time altering magic appears in BBS where the Unknown (Young Xehanort) uses his magic to rewind time for some seconds ultimativly changing his personal future.

Edit: If we assume that the timeline is really unalterable how will Xehanort carry out his plan? He needs the 13 darknesses of the other Norts but some of them are already "dead" (Ansem SoD, Xemnas, Saïx and Braig for example) so he summons them and takes away their hearts to forge the χ-blade and restart the universe. If that's not a time altering event I don't know what it is and when time can't be altered his plan is foiled from the start.

 

[Dandelion]

Braig and Isa aren't dead, they have recompleted/revived and are fully human with shards of Xehanort still in them. To some degree, anyway. They weren't there when the others woke.

Though I take your meaning, and it makes me uneasy. In order to reachieve his union I guess Xehanort will have to transcend time...again. I HATE time travel plots, but it seems it may be unavoidable. What I don't understand is why even bother with that many other people, why not just unite 13 versions of his original self from throughout the years?

 

[Gram]

Edit: If we assume that the timeline is really unalterable how will Xehanort carry out his plan? He needs the 13 darknesses of the other Norts but some of them are already "dead" (Ansem SoD, Xemnas, Saïx and Braig for example) so he summons them and takes away their hearts to forge the χ-blade and restart the universe. If that's not a time altering event I don't know what it is and when time can't be altered his plan is foiled from the start.

Xehanort himself stated time is immovable which is more than enough proof in the theory time fixes itself in kh since the biggest troll in the series admits to it.

Saix and braig aren't dead they've reformed as somebodies. And another thing, we dont know how the blade is forged, nothings ever said of taking hearts only that all pieces need be present.

As for his plan well whether it ends up foiled or not has yet to be seen. Nomura stated that TWTNW is a special space and Xehanort even states time can't be altered. Things that are meant to happen will happen.

Plus Mx hasn't really altered the current/true flow of time really if you think about it, at least not in the same way Maleficent tried to do with timeless river.
His plan takes place in the present and his three confirmed time traveling selves go back to where they came losing all memory which stabilizes the timeline.
All he needs is 13 vessels to hold the dark parts of the xblade and bringing them from past to future only for them to return to exactly where they were and how they were isn't a alteration of the flow of history.
And if things that will happen are truly going to no matter what then you could take it as meaning that MX gathering the dark shards of the xblade as being meant to happen.

We have to remember nomura hinted that not every nort in DDD was traveling through time.

—Were the 13 Seekers of Darkness, who were meant to be in different times, gathered by transcending time with magic?

Nomura: Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must ‘first’ discard their form. As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time.

— In other words, Ansem and Xemnas were, at the same time, existing in the time and space of KH3D as well as having returned to their true human form after being destroyed?

Nomura: Yes, it does turn out that way. However, as I said before, ‘The World That Never Was’, where the thirteen all met, is a special space. The mechanics behind how they were all able to exist at the same time is a mystery. From KH1 on, Ansem has returned no matter how many times he has been defeated, perhaps the same sort of thing happened.

 

[ShardofTruth]

Braig and Isa aren't dead, they have recompleted/revived and are fully human with shards of Xehanort still in them. To some degree, anyway. They weren't there when the others woke.

I'm not exactly sure but I think I've read that it's not Braig and Isa, who were gathered in the round room, but really Saïx and Xigbar, who are the vessels not their former selves.

What I don't understand is why even bother with that many other people, why not just unite 13 versions of his original self from throughout the years?

Exactly, he already uses Young Xehanort, why not more of them?

Xehanort himself stated time is immovable which is more than enough proof in the theory time fixes itself in kh since the biggest troll in the series admits to it.

Again, I don't think Master Xehanort really knows everything, he will probably fundamentally wrong about something he wants to achieve, that's how the series always wraps up. If Yen Sid or Merlin would say that time is immovable, then I would believe it.

Saix and braig aren't dead they've reformed as somebodies. And another thing, we dont know how the blade is forged, nothings ever said of taking hearts only that all pieces need be present.

Giving how the other χ-blade and the keyblade of hearts (another broken χ-blade) was formed I think it's safe to assume that being in the same room won't cut it.

As for his plan well whether it ends up foiled or not has yet to be seen. Nomura stated that TWTNW is a special space and Xehanort even states time can't be altered. Things that are meant to happen will happen.

That means Xehanort's plan will always fail, he never had a chance, that's just sad and unfair.

All he needs is 13 vessels to hold the dark parts of the xblade and bringing them from past to future only for them to return to exactly where they were and how they were isn't a alteration of the flow of history.

Yes it is, at least from the perspective of the future that happened without time travel. We also don't know if he really can return them once the χ-blade is forged. If the events unfold like at the end of BBS they will probably be trapped.

We have to remember nomura hinted that not every nort in DDD was traveling through time.

Yes, but that doesn't make a difference if at least one nort has to travel through time to get there.

 

[limit]

I... I don't know what the heck is going on anymore. The fact that Ansem and Xemnas are in the true Organization truly confounds me.

But... there is one thing I noticed. All the seats are filled while Young Xehanort is standing in front of Riku... that means he isn't part of the True Organization. I guess that could be used as a counter argument to why he didn't use past versions of himself.

--EDIT: Rewatched a scene, I noticed two small scenes where you can see him in a chair. My bad :/ --

I feel like it's pretty safe to assume that time fixes itself, because fate seems to have a big role in Kingdom Hearts. And generally speaking, good always comes over evil, even if it takes a while.

By the way, we have to remember one fundamental thing: the true Organization 13 hasn't been decided yet. Sora was meant to be the 13th vessel, but that obviously didn't work out for them. Plus, if I recall correctly, he claims to have Terra on his side, but it's pretty darn safe to assume he will be with light in the final battle. At this point anything could happen.

In Kingdom Hearts 2, they were trying to turn Beast into a nobody... this means that they could essentially take anyone from any world with a strong heart and turn them into Xehanort, so Xemnas and Ansem don't necessarily HAVE to be part of the True Org XIII - this could have been something Xehanort messed up on, or things could have gone differently if Sora lost his heart. Again, anything could happen.

 

[DefiantHeart]

I kinda feel the game was meant to be confusing so people would be drawn into future titles, with bits and pieces making sense at times. I personally would just hang onto the parts that make sense and wait for future titles to clear things up. Though Nomura has a knack for often making it more confusing at the same time...XD

 

[Gram]

I'm not exactly sure but I think I've read that it's not Braig and Isa, who were gathered in the round room, but really Saïx and Xigbar, who are the vessels not their former selves.

Their still going by the names but I only remember hearing them mentioned as human.

Again, I don't think Master Xehanort really knows everything, he will probably fundamentally wrong about something he wants to achieve, that's how the series always wraps up. If Yen Sid or Merlin would say that time is immovable, then I would believe it.

That's just silly, MX is fully credible as is Merlin or Yensid. The fact he's even devised a way to move through time is plenty proof of this.

Hell MX has even proven his more cunning and as equally knowledgeable as Yensid himself in DDD. To think MX is any dumber than Yen Sid or Merlin is just silly in of itself, he may be evil and a troll but MX is a man of curiosity and knowledge which he has shown over and over.

Giving how the other χ-blade and the keyblade of hearts (another broken χ-blade) was formed I think it's safe to assume that being in the same room won't cut it.

The keyblade of hearts isn't a broken x-blade in any sense. It is a type of keyblade forged from hearts.
The x-blade itself is something different all together, these facts are even listed as such in the DDD glossary, bbs reports and interviews.

If a keyblade of heart was even half of a xblade you'd have got a reaction similar to the pseudo one vanitas formed in bbs.

That means Xehanort's plan will always fail, he never had a chance, that's just sad and unfair.

how is that sad or unfair? Have you not been paying attention to what Xehanort has been doing to people through the series? If anything he deserves that kinda irony.

Yes it is, at least from the perspective of the future that happened without time travel. We also don't know if he really can return them once the χ-blade is forged. If the events unfold like at the end of BBS they will probably be trapped.

No it isnt. What MX is doing doesn't alter any set events in time like what Maleficent tried to do and what little ripples caused by a few of his selves traveling through time causes is repaired by their return to their point of origin.
He'll have to return them, according to the rules of time that we've learned what handful of his other selves that travel must return to whence they came as stated by Xehanort himself.

It baffles me you could argue with in-game confirmation like that.

Also it's the dark shards of the Xblade that we are uncertain about. It depends if their are in the past with those other selves or if they take form once he's gathered 13 vessels for them in the present.

Yes, but that doesn't make a difference if at least one nort has to travel through time to get there.

It's makes plenty of difference, the fewer that travel the lesser the strain.

You seem to equate MX's plan to what Maleficent tried to pull when it just isn't close. MX is pulling past selves to the present which doesn't alter any historic events since they always return to their place which doesn't alter the timeline.
While maleficent literally tried to change history.

But... there is one thing I noticed. All the seats are filled while Young Xehanort is standing in front of Riku... that means he isn't part of the True Organization. I guess that could be used as a counter argument to why he didn't use past versions of himself.

I feel like it's pretty safe to assume that time fixes itself, because fate seems to have a big role in Kingdom Hearts. And generally speaking, good always comes over evil, even if it takes a while.

Young Xehanort is a part of the true org that's why he's seated in one of the seats when MX finally reforms.

Time does fix itself, Xehanort the most knowledgeable person and troll admits to this and we've seen it several times in DDD as well as the opposing doors to timeless river.

 

[ShardofTruth]

Their still going by the names but I only remember hearing them mentioned as human.

Wasn't the whole point of the Organization to make Xehanort clones? It it does not make any difference if they are complete beings or not why even bother with Nobodies? Take Braig for example, he was willing to help Xehanort from the start yet he also had to become Nobody for Xehanort's plan to work. That's why I still think we are talking about the Nobodies here, not just the names and I think the Ultimania also makes this pretty clear.

If you can find the source where they are mentioned as humans please link it.

That's just silly, MX is fully credible as is Merlin or Yensid. The fact he's even devised a way to move through time is plenty proof of this.

Hell MX has even proven his more cunning and as equally knowledgeable as Yensid himself in DDD. To think MX is any dumber than Yen Sid or Merlin is just silly in of itself, he may be evil and a troll but MX is a man of curiosity and knowledge which he has shown over and over.

I think you misunderstood me, I never said Xehanort was dumber than Yen Sid or Merlin, just that he doesn't know everything. Remember Ansem SoD trying to absorb the Darkness of Kingdom Hearts, Ansem the Wise digitalizing hearts or Xemnas realizing hearts are not purly made of hate and anger? These are key points in the series where the antagonists realized that they don't know everything. Xehanort will get there in KHIII, that's practically a given.

The keyblade of hearts isn't a broken x-blade in any sense. It is a type of keyblade forged from hearts.
The x-blade itself is something different all together, these facts are even listed as such in the DDD glossary, bbs reports and interviews.

If a keyblade of heart was even half of a xblade you'd have got a reaction similar to the pseudo one vanitas formed in bbs.

My point was that both blades where made out of hearts. Do you really think the 13 part χ-blade won't?

how is that sad or unfair? Have you not been paying attention to what Xehanort has been doing to people through the series? If anything he deserves that kinda irony.

What's not to understand? We all know that the series will end with Sora winning one way or another. If that's the unchangeable future that your invisible and personificated time will let happen no matter what then Xehanort never had a chance. It devalues all of his and Sora's actions.

No it isnt. What MX is doing doesn't alter any set events in time like what Maleficent tried to do and what little ripples caused by a few of his selves traveling through time causes is repaired by their return to their point of origin.
He'll have to return them, according to the rules of time that we've learned what handful of his other selves that travel must return to whence they came as stated by Xehanort himself.

It baffles me you could argue with in-game confirmation like that.

You seem to equate MX's plan to what Maleficent tried to pull when it just isn't close. MX is pulling past selves to the present which doesn't alter any historic events since they always return to their place which doesn't alter the timeline.
While maleficent literally tried to change history.

You're saying that because you looking at the time altering from the past's perspective in Xehanort's case and from the future's perspective in Maleficent's case. If we turn it around we have a scenario where it wouldn't have been possible to summon the χ-blade without manipulating the past and Pete simply entering Timeless River.

It's makes plenty of difference, the fewer that travel the lesser the strain.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that. How much strain can time take and how do you measure it? What difference does it make if you have to pick out one person from it's timeline or a dozen?