Trying to fully understand this forsaken game



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limit

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Alright, as much as I love this game, it's extremely complicated. I've been trying to fully understand everything in this game.
So, here's the first thing I just can't understand:

Xemnas tells Sora that The Grid is the original version of the Tron that Ansem created. If that's true, then the events of this Tron were unrelated to the events of Ansem's Tron. If that's true, then Sora shouldn't have been able to reach Tron... would this be a mistake on the writers?

On a side note, is it stated that Sora enters the real world in TWTNW? I feel like I've heard that somewhere, but that can't be true...
 

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Alright, as much as I love this game, it's extremely complicated. I've been trying to fully understand everything in this game.
You're right, this game is...*sigh* a total mess but we'll try.
So, here's the first thing I just can't understand:

Xemnas tells Sora that The Grid is the original version of the Tron that Ansem created. If that's true, then the events of this Tron were unrelated to the events of Ansem's Tron. If that's true, then Sora shouldn't have been able to reach Tron... would this be a mistake on the writers?
Not necessarily. Coded kind of hints that the connections between hearts transcend whether or not the hearts are copies. Data Sora, for example, still felt a kinship to Mickey despite never having met him. We're not really sure how hearts within data works since it's a newer concept but with Maleficent pursuing the data worlds and Ansem's data being the key to restoring lost hearts you can bet this will be clarified in III.

On a side note, is it stated that Sora enters the real world in TWTNW? I feel like I've heard that somewhere, but that can't be true...
It's true, Sora escapes the Dream Realm once he touches down in The World That Never Was.
 

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On a side note, is it stated that Sora enters the real world in TWTNW? I feel like I've heard that somewhere, but that can't be true...
It was hard for me to wrap my head around this, but after much rewatching scenes, internet searching, and talking to friends, I think I've got this down:

So, Sora is in the realm of sleep, but thanks the the Ansem Sod's meddling, "He was there then to make sure you ended up here now."
So Sora was basically lead there from the realm of sleep to the real world that never was by the bad guys.

But then you might ask: why does Sora still have his 14-year-old appearance and those clothes? The 14-year-old appearance was not a side effect of going to the realm of sleep, but was caused by Yen Sid's magic, I think to disguise Sora when he traveled to Destiny Islands in the past at the beginning of the game, in case anyone saw him. The clothes, I think, were given to him by Ansem SoD. So both of these persisted into the real world WTNW. When Riku recovered Sora, Yen Sid reversed these, and Sora returned to his normal, KH2 appearance.

Hope this clears some stuff up!
 

limit

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Not bad, Coded, not bad at all. Thanks for that.

It's true, Sora escapes the Dream Realm once he touches down in The World That Never Was.
So to clarify:
Yen Sid used a version of time travel identical to the one Merlin used, except without a door; this launched Sora and Riku into the past before Destiny Islands was swallowed. After leaving Destiny Islands, they shot back to the present and their bodies re-appeared in Yen Sid's tower, but their minds were in the sleeping worlds still.

Xehanort's time travel brought all the members to the present, where MX was to appear after being revived. When their time ran out, they were all brought back to their own times without any memory of what happened. Does this include MX himself?

There's also the question of Sora and Riku. Were those their minds that were in TWTNW? When Xeha's time ran out, were their minds teleported back to their bodies then?

*That sig is hilarious!!*

It was hard for me to wrap my head around this, but after much rewatching scenes, internet searching, and talking to friends, I think I've got this down:

So, Sora is in the realm of sleep, but thanks the the Ansem Sod's meddling, "He was there then to make sure you ended up here now."
So Sora was basically lead there from the realm of sleep to the real world that never was by the bad guys.

But then you might ask: why does Sora still have his 14-year-old appearance and those clothes? The 14-year-old appearance was not a side effect of going to the realm of sleep, but was caused by Yen Sid's magic, I think to disguise Sora when he traveled to Destiny Islands in the past at the beginning of the game, in case anyone saw him. The clothes, I think, were given to him by Ansem SoD. So both of these persisted into the real world WTNW. When Riku recovered Sora, Yen Sid reversed these, and Sora returned to his normal, KH2 appearance.

Hope this clears some stuff up!
That still leaves the question of these bodies themselves being in the real world. Sora's and Riku's bodies were at Yen Sid's tower, but if their *minds* were outside of the dream realm in TWTNW, does that mean they essentially gained two bodies? Is this a "dreams becoming reality" sort of thing?
 

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Not bad, Coded, not bad at all. Thanks for that.



So to clarify:
Yen Sid used a version of time travel identical to the one Merlin used, except without a door; this launched Sora and Riku into the past before Destiny Islands was swallowed. After leaving Destiny Islands, they shot back to the present and their bodies re-appeared in Yen Sid's tower, but their minds were in the sleeping worlds still.

Xehanort's time travel brought all the members to the present, where MX was to appear after being revived. When their time ran out, they were all brought back to their own times without any memory of what happened. Does this include MX himself?

There's also the question of Sora and Riku. Were those their minds that were in TWTNW? When Xeha's time ran out, were their minds teleported back to their bodies then?

*That sig is hilarious!!*



That still leaves the question of these bodies themselves being in the real world. Sora's and Riku's bodies were at Yen Sid's tower, but if their *minds* were outside of the dream realm in TWTNW, does that mean they essentially gained two bodies? Is this a "dreams becoming reality" sort of thing?
Riku and Sora were sent body and heart through time and space and the dreaming worlds. Sora's body only physically succumbed to sleep when it was triggered by his fall to darkness. In the Realm of Sleep, Sora and Riku were in a quasi state of being awake, but as you see Sora jumps into the Realm of Sleep body-and-heart at the end of the game, meaning they were in their bodies the whole time.

You don't have to leave your body to travel through time, you just had to have done it at one point in your life. Not all of the members of the True Organization XIII were traveling through time to get to Master Xehanort's recompletion, some exist in real time and just physically made the trip.

Braig, Isa, and Master Xehanort should remember what happened, among a few other members, as they were the ones who recompleted.
 

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You don't have to leave your body to travel through time, you just had to have done it at one point in your life. Not all of the members of the True Organization XIII were traveling through time to get to Master Xehanort's recompletion, some exist in real time and just physically made the trip.

Braig, Isa, and Master Xehanort should remember what happened, among a few other members, as they were the ones who recompleted.
I'm with you on this.

Not remembering the events that transpired is a side effect that's suffered only by those who actually time-travel upon returning to their time, just like Young Xehanort. He even confirmed that himself that when Sora was falling asleep, that he would forget everything, but his appointed path was then etched in his heart and would lead him into first leaving the island and becoming the man we know as Master Xehanort.

It's true that among the thirteen darknesses, the only one who has been confirmed to have travelled through time is YX, while the statuses of all the others are as of now unknown. However, it's valid to speculate that Master Xehanort, Isa / Saix, and Braig / Xigbar did not time-travel, consideing the latter two's absence from Radiant Garden when Lea, Ienzo, and Aeleus were resurrected, and also the fact that we know that MX too had been resurrected after Ansem SoD and Xemnas' defeat. Thus, it's likely that they wouldn't forget about the happenings in DDD.

Bear in mind though that right now, there's no way to prove whether it's correct or wrong, which is why I used the word "speculate".
 
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limit

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Riku and Sora were sent body and heart through time and space and the dreaming worlds. Sora's body only physically succumbed to sleep when it was triggered by his fall to darkness. In the Realm of Sleep, Sora and Riku were in a quasi state of being awake, but as you see Sora jumps into the Realm of Sleep body-and-heart at the end of the game, meaning they were in their bodies the whole time.

You don't have to leave your body to travel through time, you just had to have done it at one point in your life. Not all of the members of the True Organization XIII were traveling through time to get to Master Xehanort's recompletion, some exist in real time and just physically made the trip.

Braig, Isa, and Master Xehanort should remember what happened, among a few other members, as they were the ones who recompleted.
Ok, that clears a lot up. I was assuming that Sora's and Riku's bodies were in the tower the whole time, but I went and re-watched some scenes, turns out they weren't :p

Thanks!
 

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If this is how it actually happened I'm starting to see a lot of plot holes in KH3D story. I always thought that when the game started in Destiny Island it was just a sleeping projection of it so it could be a common ground for both Sora and Riku to enter the Sleeping Worlds. The fact that they went back in time and met Ursula there to me that is bad writing. Also I thought that if you time travel in the kingdom hearts series you forget everything when you get back to your time. So that means that Sora and Riku should have forgotten everything when they got back to the tower.
 

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If this is how it actually happened I'm starting to see a lot of plot holes in KH3D story. I always thought that when the game started in Destiny Island it was just a sleeping projection of it so it could be a common ground for both Sora and Riku to enter the Sleeping Worlds. The fact that they went back in time and met Ursula there to me that is bad writing. Also I thought that if you time travel in the kingdom hearts series you forget everything when you get back to your time. So that means that Sora and Riku should have forgotten everything when they got back to the tower.
That's Xehanort's method of time travel, it's possible Yen Sid summoned a door like Merlin did in KH2.

That Ursula wasn't the real Ursula, it was a projection.
 

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So, why exactly was there a projection of Ursula? And why her?
Some people think it was Yen Sid testing them, some think it was Xehanort being a dick. There's no real confirmation, the journal just calls her a Phantom Ursula.
 

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That Ursula wasn't the real Ursula, it was a projection.
Well, that's not necessarily true. It could be a projection by Yen Sid, or it could be the real thing brought there by Young Xehanort to disrupt them so that Ansem SoD could give Sora his clothes and put Riku in Sora's dreams while going unnoticed, using Ursula as a distraction. Ursula did say "just like he said, those wretched guppies are here!" She could be referring to YX when she says here, and she could have been sent to her own time upon being defeated, forgetting the whole thing. Or it could be a projection. Either way, it makes the same impact on the story, which is next to none.

That's Xehanort's method of time travel, it's possible Yen Sid summoned a door like Merlin did in KH2.
Yeah, Yen Sid could've used a different method from Xehanort. But it may still be possible for them to keep their memories even if they did use Xehanort's method. In MX method, you lose your memories upon "leaping" back to your own time, but this didn't necessarily happen to them. From DI in the past, they went to the realm of sleep, which exists outside of time. The organization then led them back to their own time, without them ever necessarily "leaping" back, if that makes sense.
 

Loxdani

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Now explain this, they were physically sent to Destiny Island but why were they in their younger form shouldn't they look the same as in the cutscenes in the mysterious tower. Also if they went back in time to that specific time shouldn't they have seen Riku or Kairi running around? and if they embodied their younger selves shouldn't that alter the events of KHI? I understand that after Ursula when the keyhole appeared they went to the Realm of Sleep (well Sora did and Riku went to Sora's dream. It was an eureka moment when it was explained in the game. I was like "That's why I can only play as Riku when Sora sleeps!").

It has been a while since I played KH2 what door did Merlin use to time travel? I liked the limitations set to Xehanort's time travel that prevented the story from getting too complicated (well at least more complicated than it already is ;)). If they can time travel without giving up something why didn't Xehanort do it that way. He could have had a body from the beginning of KHI and he could have developed his plan better if he remembered he did most of the work when a young man.

I used to like the bliss of my way of thinking the events had happened. I hate this forum for making me have a more in depth understanding of the Kingdom Hearts plot. Curse you Kingdom Hearts Insider Forum!!!
 

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Now explain this, they were physically sent to Destiny Island but why were they in their younger form shouldn't they look the same as in the cutscenes in the mysterious tower. Also if they went back in time to that specific time shouldn't they have seen Riku or Kairi running around? and if they embodied their younger selves shouldn't that alter the events of KHI? I understand that after Ursula when the keyhole appeared they went to the Realm of Sleep (well Sora did and Riku went to Sora's dream. It was an eureka moment when it was explained in the game. I was like "That's why I can only play as Riku when Sora sleeps!").

It has been a while since I played KH2 what door did Merlin use to time travel? I liked the limitations set to Xehanort's time travel that prevented the story from getting too complicated (well at least more complicated than it already is ;)). If they can time travel without giving up something why didn't Xehanort do it that way. He could have had a body from the beginning of KHI and he could have developed his plan better if he remembered he did most of the work when a young man.

I used to like the bliss of my way of thinking the events had happened. I hate this forum for making me have a more in depth understanding of the Kingdom Hearts plot. Curse you Kingdom Hearts Insider Forum!!!
Well, for you and everyone else, here are the interviews if you'd like a clearer understanding of some things.

Interviews - [Dream Drop Distance] - Kingdom Hearts Insider

The sad thing about this game is that no matter which you turn, there are plotholes everywhere. Yen Sid turned Sora and Riku into their young forms with his magic, but to my knowledge they weren't embodying their younger selves they just resembled them. The younger selves were getting ready for the voyage so it's safe to assume that they just hid out of sight and since they never checked on the raft after they finished Sora and Riku effectively took off knowing no one would see them.

Timeless River, remember?

I have no answers for the rest of your questions. Xehanort's time travel kept the story from getting too complicated?
Do you see the irony here?
 

limit

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Now explain this, they were physically sent to Destiny Island but why were they in their younger form shouldn't they look the same as in the cutscenes in the mysterious tower. Also if they went back in time to that specific time shouldn't they have seen Riku or Kairi running around? and if they embodied their younger selves shouldn't that alter the events of KHI? I understand that after Ursula when the keyhole appeared they went to the Realm of Sleep (well Sora did and Riku went to Sora's dream. It was an eureka moment when it was explained in the game. I was like "That's why I can only play as Riku when Sora sleeps!").

It has been a while since I played KH2 what door did Merlin use to time travel? I liked the limitations set to Xehanort's time travel that prevented the story from getting too complicated (well at least more complicated than it already is ;)). If they can time travel without giving up something why didn't Xehanort do it that way. He could have had a body from the beginning of KHI and he could have developed his plan better if he remembered he did most of the work when a young man.

I used to like the bliss of my way of thinking the events had happened. I hate this forum for making me have a more in depth understanding of the Kingdom Hearts plot. Curse you Kingdom Hearts Insider Forum!!!
Lol, sorry about that :p

Anyway, from my understanding it was Yen Sid's magic. He probably had the time travel affect Sora and Riku's age as well, so that they could re-learn how to use the keyblade (hence the Mark of Mastery). I don't see how this would affect KH1, since they had no real interactions with their past selves

I'm pretty sure Xehanort couldn't use Sora's and Riku's time travel because he didn't have a powerful wizard to do it for him, so he was stuck with this version and was willing to give everything up. That does give me another question, though - When YX time traveled, he was eventually forced back into his own time. This didn't happen with Robed Xehanort - is it safe to assume that the transfer of powers exempted him from being forced back?
 

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Anyway, from my understanding it was Yen Sid's magic. He probably had the time travel affect Sora and Riku's age as well, so that they could re-learn how to use the keyblade (hence the Mark of Mastery).
The funny thing is that Yen Sid never teaches Sora and Riku the "proper" way of the keyblade, they are learning it on their own once again in KH3D.

Honestly introducing another time travel method that is as convoluted as Xehanort's was one of the worse of KH3D's bag of bad ideas.
Sending Sora and Riku back in time to gain access to the Sleeping Worlds is a strange idea, it becomes even more strange when they awake in TWTNW in the present.
Phantom Ursula, let's just not talk about her. Apparently she was told where to find Sora and Riku by someone (probably Xehanort) but how she traveled there or why she's called a phantom nobody knows.
The seven keyholes of sleep is another problem. Why are they so important? Why are there more than seven in the game? Is there at least one for every world and did every world wake up (with the expection of the fake Traverse Town) after they were all unlocked, even the unshown one's like Dumbo's homeworld?
If Master Xehanort and Young Xehanort can be part of the True Organization XIII why can't he just summon more versions of himself to fill all 13 spots?
If Merlin and Yen Sid have more powerful magic than Xehanort then why is he a problem at all? Can't they sent Sora or someone else to solve this problem in the past (and/or save TVA for that matter).

Time travels are a very complicated subject that open doors to all kind of plotholes if you can't handle them correctly/logically, a good story that involves time travel will often become a story just about these problems for this very reason.
Timeless River sure was fun and there was no real harm done because it was just a Disney episode, but heavily interweaving this theme in the main plot is not only a cheap plot twist but will also influence KHIII in a bad way.
I have not lost hope that the future games will eventually overcome this, but at the moment I have serious doubts giving that Nomura doesn't seem to be sure about the rules of his own universe, even if they were laid out in some detail and only expanded very carefully in the past.
 

limit

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The funny thing is that Yen Sid never teaches Sora and Riku the "proper" way of the keyblade, they are learning it on their own once again in KH3D.

Honestly introducing another time travel method that is as convoluted as Xehanort's was one of the worse of KH3D's bag of bad ideas.
Well, can't say I don't agree time travel was a bad idea here... although I'm pretty convinced that they were being guided by the sleeping worlds to relearn - they weren't totally independent like in kh1 and kh2. That goes along with how their abilities transferred into the real world after unlocking the seven sleeping keyholes.

Sending Sora and Riku back in time to gain access to the Sleeping Worlds is a strange idea, it becomes even more strange when they awake in TWTNW in the present.
Well, it does make sense, really. They needed to go with Destiny Islands as it fell into sleep in order to gain access to the others. In kh1, Sora and Riku went through dark portals (kinda like the Organization's) which is why they didn't enter the sleeping worlds. As for going to the present, I think the sleeping worlds were kind of exempt from time, and only after the Organization led them back into reality did they enter the present.

The seven keyholes of sleep is another problem. Why are they so important? Why are there more than seven in the game? Is there at least one for every world and did every world wake up (with the expection of the fake Traverse Town) after they were all unlocked, even the unshown one's like Dumbo's homeworld?
I'm assuming unlocking these keyholes both freed them from sleep and granted Sora and Riku new powers. Now, where diid you see more than seven? The only one I can recall is Traverse Town, and I believe that the first time didn't fully unlock it.

If you're talking about Riku having to unlock the keyholes, I think they required two keys/hearts to complete it, kinda like how the Door to Darkness in kh1 had the same requirements (KH3D does draw a lot of parallels to kh1, from what I've seen). Also, Riku is in Sora's dreams, so that could be another explanation. Either he was unlocking them as figments of Sora's dreams, or his unlocking of them transcended Sora's dreams and completed the 2nd half.

If Master Xehanort and Young Xehanort can be part of the True Organization XIII why can't he just summon more versions of himself to fill all 13 spots?
If Merlin and Yen Sid have more powerful magic than Xehanort then why is he a problem at all? Can't they sent Sora or someone else to solve this problem in the past (and/or save TVA for that matter).
I don't think Young Xehanort was a part of the true Org XIII. After all, he had to be snapped back to his own time, so that rules out all past versions of himself, really (including Xemnas, Ansem, etc.).

Now, Timeless River actually set a precedent for time travel in Kingdom Hearts - you can't change events in the past. Well, you CAN, but anyone who knows the magical version of time travel probably follows some code that forbids them from doing so. That's why Merlin told Sora not to "give in to dark forces" - Yen Sid was following this same code, so Sora and Riku couldn't interfere with the past. Lord knows the consequences.

I have not lost hope that the future games will eventually overcome this, but at the moment I have serious doubts giving that Nomura doesn't seem to be sure about the rules of his own universe, even if they were laid out in some detail and only expanded very carefully in the past.
Aww, I have faith in Nomura! KH3D only really TOUCHED on a lot of delicate stuff. That's a big reason why I'm looking forward to KH3. It's gonna clear up any confusion on whatever KH3D started.
 

Loxdani

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That's why I said that I liked the parameters for time travel set for Xehanort. These parameters limits the "couldn't they just..." questions like couldn't they just go back in time to when Young Xehanort started to give into the darkness and stop him then and so on.

Also I know by reading posts that members here are sick of the goodie two shoes light (me personally I am kinda like Eraqus light is good dakness is bad) but even I agree why does the protagonists can have free range timetravel/power/everything but the antagonists are so limited.

I truly believe that Nomura came up with these parameters for Xehanort only to explain why Heartless Xehanort didn't have a body in the beginning of KHI.
 

limit

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That's why I said that I liked the parameters for time travel set for Xehanort. These parameters limits the "couldn't they just..." questions like couldn't they just go back in time to when Young Xehanort started to give into the darkness and stop him then and so on.

Also I know by reading posts that members here are sick of the goodie two shoes light (me personally I am kinda like Eraqus light is good dakness is bad) but even I agree why does the protagonists can have free range timetravel/power/everything but the antagonists are so limited.

I truly believe that Nomura came up with these parameters for Xehanort only to explain why Heartless Xehanort didn't have a body in the beginning of KHI.
Could very well be why. Personally I don't really care if light is goodie two shoes, that's the main conflict presented in the series anyway, so...
I guess anyone with a pure (good) heart is allowed, in a way, to learn a pure form of time travel, since they can be trusted to maintain order, or some shiz like that.
 
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