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Time Travel Explained

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Royce & Mueller

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[/I]A pompous two-liner isn't more worthy of anyone's time than someone making sense of the established plot points to a series they want to understand because they enjoy it.

Oh my. Now this is intriguing. Is "Jesusfreak" is calling someone else pompous!? Now that's rich since you've spent the lifespan of an entire forum to hell and back perfecting that very concept.

Not a lot of folks here have looked inside your closet, have they?

We might as well just stop analyzing all media then. Surface level enjoyment. No critical thought ever again. Nope. Not the place on a discussion forum. We do not discuss things here anymore.

But....this isn't really a discussion. :/ It's a defense. Because if it were meant to be a discussion, it would've been taken back to the....I dunno, million and one topics that discuss this very point.

Necroposting isn't exactly anything new here. In fact, I've observed it to be a tradition from time to time! This however reads like an.....hmmm, counter-argument to an Amazon review that's not even linked, you know?

Now, that's just my reply to your reply. It's since then turned into a discussion, so I digress. ^_^;
 

The_Echo

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But....this isn't really a discussion. :/ It's a defense.
It's an explanation. Note the title which reads "Time Travel Explained."

If I explain to you how the ridiculous nuances of switching your driver's license from one state to another works, I am not defending the process.
I am explaining it to you.

ex·plain

ikˈsplān/
verb

  • make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas.



 

Audo

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Oh my. Now this is intriguing. Is "Jesusfreak" is calling someone else pompous!? Now that's rich since you've spent the lifespan of an entire forum to hell and back perfecting that very concept.

Not a lot of folks here have looked inside your closet, have they?
dude chill the diddly out. no one cares about your personal dramas or attempts at mud-slinging. take it to PMs if you have something to say. literally no one needs to see you do this in public.

But....this isn't really a discussion. :/ It's a defense.
It may not be a discussion (since no one seems to actually be engaging at all with OP's actual post) but it is hardly a defense. Nowhere in the OP's first post is he defending time travel, or it's inclusions. It's just his interpretation and explanation for how the whole thing works in the game based on how he saw it and is sharing it in case there were others who were confused and who might appreciate someone trying to untangle it. Just because he isn't badmouthing the element doesn't mean he is actively defending it.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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It's a defense.

I don't know how listing information is a defense. Unless the people talking things out in this thread do not make up a form of discussion (regardless of how critical it is or not).

You're hardly being constructive yourself. There are ways to post against a "defense" and what you did and are doing right now is not that.

Because if it were meant to be a discussion, it would've been taken back to the....I dunno, million and one topics that discuss this very point.

Necroposting isn't exactly anything new here. In fact, I've observed it to be a tradition from time to time!

I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make? A new thread is a new thread. If there was another active topic exactly like this, this would be closed in lieu of it. If somebody necro'd a thread that was within the past few months or the year, it'd be fine. Any older and it'd be closed.
 

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Time Travel wouldn't have been needed. Kinda silly to defend this claim when Nomura could've always came up with another idea to introduce this route. Like having Sora & Riku go into sleep themselves or using a special portal or means he was aware of similar to Merlin just knowing of an alternate door to Timeless River.

It didn't need to be so complex or difficult to enter as to require time travel. No really point to argue it now though. Damage has done been devastatingly done.

Edit. To jump down this guys throat however is silly. He's trying to explain it for those that care and done it rather well. The only hitch in it was the part Tinny pointed out on the first page.
 
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Dandelion

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Oh my. Now this is intriguing. Is "Jesusfreak" is calling someone else pompous!? Now that's rich since you've spent the lifespan of an entire forum to hell and back perfecting that very concept.

Not a lot of folks here have looked inside your closet, have they?

What the hell would they find? Ten years ago I was a pretentious preteen at KHU, but my former religious convictions have nothing to do with me being here now and taking up for people who are just posting threads nor was there ever any big jesusfreak777 scandal? Good on you though for remembering me. At least one of us left an impression~

Personally, I don't waste time on things I don't like, which is why I'm not going to respond to you anymore, but I suggest you do the same and if the contrivances of KH cause you to be such an ass to people, maybe find something more enjoyable to do with your time?
 

BlackOsprey

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I sense a plot to instigate a flamewar.

People can say whatever they want about the time travel. I think it's a bit of a ridiculous plot point, but it did give me something for my mind to chew on, and I appreciate stuff like that. All I know is that it's not as bad as Terminator Genysis, so we're okay.
 

Audo

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Honestly, I don't mind time travel at all, lol. I enjoyed trying to piece it together myself. I don't think it is perfectly implemented or anything like that, and they definitely did a poor job in spots of explaining it to the player, but overall I don't mind it. Similar to The_Echo, I kind of viewed it as just one big set-up for KH3, something to get the greatest hits collection of villains going that is a way to tie the whole series together from inception for KH3. I don't expect it will actually figure into things much more than that.

That being said, there are parts of the OP's explanation I don't necessarily agree with such as, I don't think becoming a Heartless is enough to be able to time travel (I think it is very specifically "an existence of only a heart" and I don't think all of the recompleted Nobodies are thus capable of time travel) and I don't think there are two Xigbars or two Saixs running around post-KH2, I believe we are only ever seeing their recompleted selves.
 

BlackOsprey

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That being said, there are parts of the OP's explanation I don't necessarily agree with such as, I don't think becoming a Heartless is enough to be able to time travel (I think it is very specifically "an existence of only a heart" and I don't think all of the recompleted Nobodies are thus capable of time travel) and I don't think there are two Xigbars or two Saixs running around post-KH2, I believe we are only ever seeing their recompleted selves.

It looks to me like becoming a Heartless is one of the ways to gain the ability to time travel. The process does, after all, involve the heart leaving the body and having the darkness within it take physical form (or at least that's what happens with Purebloods...). Sora seems to have this ability to time travel, and I don't recall him ever being reduced to just a heart at any point in the story aside from his brief time as a Shadow. If turning into a Heartless isn't what gave him the ability, I don't really know what did.
 

Audo

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It looks to me like becoming a Heartless is one of the ways to gain the ability to time travel. The process does, after all, involve the heart leaving the body and having the darkness within it take physical form (or at least that's what happens with Purebloods...). Sora seems to have this ability to time travel, and I don't recall him ever being reduced to just a heart at any point in the story aside from his brief time as a Shadow. If turning into a Heartless isn't what gave him the ability, I don't really know what did.
Kairi reversing the Heartless formation is believed by many to have left Sora as an existence of only a heart (not a Heartless, but not complete) until he merges with Roxas in KH2. Similarly, Riku is also known to become an existence of only a heart in KH1, having had his heart kicked out by Ansem and ending up in the RoD where he did not become a heartless, nor was he complete.

I just find it very hard to believe that the series would really go down the route of literally every single Heartless being able to time travel lol and YMX himself is very pointed in describing ASoD as a "being reduced to just a heart" as opposed to simply calling him a Heartless. So idk.
 

The_Echo

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I don't think there are two Xigbars or two Saixs running around post-KH2, I believe we are only ever seeing their recompleted selves.
Why not? We see Braig recompleted in Re:coded's "Destiny" scene, just a short while before Lea and the rest wake up in DDD, in which we see Xigbar and Saïx (referred to by these names in the journal) as part of the True Organization. The discrepancy between Braig/Xigbar's appearance in such a similar timeframe can't be accidental. Not in the same series that is so meticulous about the visual representation of characters that Braig's eye color changes during the course of BbS, and Roxas is in fact not identical to Ventus.

And when Braig mentions having plans of his own, I can see few other reasonable conclusions than that Braig has taken a page out of Xehanort's book and abused his multiple selves as means to an end.
 

Audo

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Why not? We see Braig recompleted in Re:coded's "Destiny" scene, just a short while before Lea and the rest wake up in DDD, in which we see Xigbar and Saïx (referred to by these names in the journal) as part of the True Organization. The discrepancy between Braig/Xigbar's appearance in such a similar timeframe can't be accidental. Not in the same series that is so meticulous about the visual representation of characters that Braig's eye color changes during the course of BbS, and Roxas is in fact not identical to Ventus.

And when Braig mentions having plans of his own, I can see few other reasonable conclusions than that Braig has taken a page out of Xehanort's book and abused his multiple selves as means to an end.
Yeah I think Braig in 2.5's ending is the same Braig in KH3D and nothing has convinced me otherwise yet.

And this series isn't THAT meticulous about visual representations lol. May I remind the fact that TAV's "four years younger models" are identical to their current models lol.
And Roxas actually IS identical to Ventus. In BBS it's true that Ventus has a slightly different facial model, but in KH3D they have the exact same face model.

I think they just didn't want to make a new model that had Xigbar's head on Braig's body (or vice versa) for a single two minute scene. And it's also pretty clear that Isa is Isa in KH3D. It is set up early on in the game that one of the mysteries is "Where are Braig and Isa"? This is Lea's throughline motivation in the game and in the end we find out where they are -- they are a part of Xehanort's plan. For them to be otherwise just goes against like basic storytelling fundamentals.
 

The_Echo

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Yeah I think Braig in 2.5's ending is the same Braig in KH3D and nothing has convinced me otherwise yet.
I think they just didn't want to make a new model that had Xigbar's head on Braig's body (or vice versa) for a single two minute scene.
Man, that's so, like... really? As if that would have been so difficult to accomplish.

Also Roxas and Ventus have different hair. Roxas's is messier, Ven's hangs lower over his ears. In renders at least, Roxas has darker eyebrows. The differences are slight but they're very real.
And it's also pretty clear that Isa is Isa in KH3D.
Well he's called Saïx so
It is set up early on in the game that one of the mysteries is "Where are Braig and Isa"? This is Lea's throughline motivation in the game and in the end we find out where they are -- they are a part of Xehanort's plan. For them to be otherwise just goes against like basic storytelling fundamentals.
Let's be real, KH is not a paragon of storytelling. And Nomura's been on a mission since day one to surprise the audience any chance he gets.
 

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Isa was called Isa in DDD. Lea called him that (and no one said otherwise) when he was revealed to be a vessel during that scene in the throne room.

A Heartless is basically a corrupted, non-sentient heart that's running around without a conventional body, so you tell me...

tbh I wouldn't find it that hard to believe. Remember that Heartless, up until KH1, were very rare and relatively few in number. Moreover, I'd imagine that while becoming a Heartless allows you to use this method of time travel, actually being able to utilize it isn't very simple. You'll need a whole lot of magical help (like the kind that only people like Xehanort or Yen Sid would have)... which your average person would not have.
 

Audo

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Man, that's so, like... really? As if that would have been so difficult to accomplish.
I think it's more an issue of budget (keep in mind the budget for the remasters were a lot smaller with much smaller development times than new games like KH3D) and the fact that the average fan would likely not think anything of it (seriously the only difference between the two models is the length of his hair and it not being streaked).

Also Roxas and Ventus have different hair. Roxas's is messier, Ven's hangs lower over his ears. In renders at least, Roxas has darker eyebrows. The differences are slight but they're very real.
Like I said, in past games there were differences, in KH3D (and likely, going forward with the two in the same game) there are not.
"...we used the same model for Ventus and Roxas."--Toru Yamazaki (Art Director: Character Texture on KH3D)

Well he's called Saïx so
He is actually called Isa in the game.

Let's be real, KH is not a paragon of storytelling. And Nomura's been on a mission since day one to surprise the audience any chance he gets.
Despite Nomura's love of surprise, he still understands the basics of storytelling lol and how to properly set something up. Plus it isn't much of a surprise if the game itself doesn't actually make it clear that this switcheroo is happening.

Isa was called Isa in DDD. Lea called him that (and no one said otherwise) when he was revealed to be a vessel during that scene in the throne room.

A Heartless is basically a corrupted, non-sentient heart that's running around without a conventional body, so you tell me...

tbh I wouldn't find it that hard to believe. Remember that Heartless, up until KH1, were very rare and relatively few in number. Moreover, I'd imagine that while becoming a Heartless allows you to use this method of time travel, actually being able to utilize it isn't very simple. You'll need a whole lot of magical help (like the kind that only people like Xehanort or Yen Sid would have)... which your average person would not have.
I just don't think it is a coincidence that everyone who time travels in KH3D has an explanation for them being an existence of only a heart (and not a heartless) and that we have yet to see any of the recompleted members time travelling. But I will definitely admit this area is fuzzy at this point, personally, I don't think they will go down the route of everyone who has ever been a heartless being able to time travel but the option is open.
 
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Honestly, I don't mind time travel at all, lol. I enjoyed trying to piece it together myself. I don't think it is perfectly implemented or anything like that, and they definitely did a poor job in spots of explaining it to the player, but overall I don't mind it. Similar to The_Echo, I kind of viewed it as just one big set-up for KH3, something to get the greatest hits collection of villains going that is a way to tie the whole series together from inception for KH3. I don't expect it will actually figure into things much more than that.

That being said, there are parts of the OP's explanation I don't necessarily agree with such as, I don't think becoming a Heartless is enough to be able to time travel (I think it is very specifically "an existence of only a heart" and I don't think all of the recompleted Nobodies are thus capable of time travel) and I don't think there are two Xigbars or two Saixs running around post-KH2, I believe we are only ever seeing their recompleted selves.

"I don't think becoming a Heartless is enough to be able to time travel."
Well, as we've seen with Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, it definitely is enough to time travel. Xehanort got rid of his bodily form and became just a heart. That is what the Robed Figure is. The Robed Figure, in many interviews, Nomura refers to as a Heartless. So yes, Xehanort got rid of his body, became a Heartless, and then was able to time travel to a time where a version of himself existed.

As for the Xigbar and Saix situation, there is a ton of debate around this topic, but there are definitely currently two Xigbars/Braigs. In the Re:coded secret ending with Young Xehanort, we see Braig. He was brought back because his Nobody and Heartless were destroyed. He has short hair. And in Dream Drop Distance, we see Xigbar. He has long hair. There are absolutely two different ones currently alive. One has short hair and one has long hair.

As for Isa and Saix, that's a slightly more foggy situation as we have so little information about it.

But yeah, it will most likely be cleared up in KH3.
 
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Kairi reversing the Heartless formation is believed by many to have left Sora as an existence of only a heart (not a Heartless, but not complete) until he merges with Roxas in KH2. Similarly, Riku is also known to become an existence of only a heart in KH1, having had his heart kicked out by Ansem and ending up in the RoD where he did not become a heartless, nor was he complete.

I just find it very hard to believe that the series would really go down the route of literally every single Heartless being able to time travel lol and YMX himself is very pointed in describing ASoD as a "being reduced to just a heart" as opposed to simply calling him a Heartless. So idk.

Definitely not all Heartless can time travel. Purebloods most definitely can't. They are just darkness, they have no heart. As for Emblems, I think it's pretty likely that most, if not all Emblems have the ability to time travel, since they are just a heart, trapped in a shell of darkness. The difference between this and a regular person is that a regular person's heart, body, and soul are all one being. They are all merged together. When you become a Heartless, whether it be Pureblood or Emblem, the heart, body, and soul are all split up. Emblem Heartless have hearts trapped inside of them, but they do not have hearts of their own.
 

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"I don't think becoming a Heartless is enough to be able to time travel."
Well, as we've seen with Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, it definitely is enough to time travel. Xehanort got rid of his bodily form and became just a heart. That is what the Robed Figure is. The Robed Figure, in many interviews, Nomura refers to as a Heartless. So yes, Xehanort got rid of his body, became a Heartless, and then was able to time travel to a time where a version of himself existed.
Technically, Xehanort first gained the ability to time travel in BBS when he cast off his body and took over Terranort. Furthermore, there is evidence that while Ansem can technically be considered a Heartless, he himself says in the Ansem Reports that he never became one, that he never underwent the transformation of a Heartless. YMX himself simply refers to him as a being reduced to just a heart. So it is not as clear as one might think.

Definitely not all Heartless can time travel. Purebloods most definitely can't. They are just darkness, they have no heart. As for Emblems, I think it's pretty likely that most, if not all Emblems have the ability to time travel, since they are just a heart, trapped in a shell of darkness. The difference between this and a regular person is that a regular person's heart, body, and soul are all one being. They are all merged together. When you become a Heartless, whether it be Pureblood or Emblem, the heart, body, and soul are all split up. Emblem Heartless have hearts trapped inside of them, but they do not have hearts of their own.
Sora became a Pureblood, so if you're saying Purebloods can't time travel then you're now contradicting things?

Also try not to double post, you can quote from multiple people in a single post by clicking the button next to the one that says "Reply with Quote" that has a +
 
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Isa was called Isa in DDD. Lea called him that (and no one said otherwise) when he was revealed to be a vessel during that scene in the throne room.

A Heartless is basically a corrupted, non-sentient heart that's running around without a conventional body, so you tell me...

tbh I wouldn't find it that hard to believe. Remember that Heartless, up until KH1, were very rare and relatively few in number. Moreover, I'd imagine that while becoming a Heartless allows you to use this method of time travel, actually being able to utilize it isn't very simple. You'll need a whole lot of magical help (like the kind that only people like Xehanort or Yen Sid would have)... which your average person would not have.

Lea calls him Isa simply to create a minor emotional moment. His name in the Journal is Saix. The Journal is the absolute most trustworthy source of KH information.

Technically, Xehanort first gained the ability to time travel in BBS when he cast off his body and took over Terranort. Furthermore, there is evidence that while Ansem can technically be considered a Heartless, he himself says in the Ansem Reports that he never became one, that he never underwent the transformation of a Heartless. YMX himself simply refers to him as a being reduced to just a heart. So it is not as clear as one might think.


Sora became a Pureblood, so if you're saying Purebloods can't time travel then you're now contradicting things?

Also try not to double post, you can quote from multiple people in a single post by clicking the button next to the one that says "Reply with Quote" that has a +

True yeah, you're right about the Robed Figure thing. He most likely simply extracted his heart without having any of the darkness come out, like Xehanort did with his heart when he extracted it put it in Terra's body. And then later on, he purposefully let the darkness in his heart consume his heart, which turned him into the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness we all know and love.

Not really sure what I'm contradicting myself on, but yeah, Purebloods cannot time travel. They are not hearts and they have no hearts, they are simply the darkness of the heart, made flesh.

Sorry, I will make sure not to double post any longer.
 
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Dandelion

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Yes, and it's not wrong, but so long as he and Braig are in league with Xehanort they'll probably continue to use those names.

In any case, we see the recompleted Isa in the Re:coded secret ending and he is definitely a whole Isa, yet when Young Xehanort singles him out as a vessel he begins to say Saix. I take that as it's interchangeable for now.
 
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