Theory: the Master of Master's motive (sort of)

[Sephiroth0812]

You know the kicker is if the Master IS telling the truth to Gula then Gula is the traitor since only Gula deviated from his task. Ira tried to lead to the bitter end, Invi tried to mediate, and Aced was simply trying to take control as he was told he should do. Meanwhile Ava and Luxu complete their tasks completely. Gula's task however was to find the traitor and ultimately he gives up on that, he decides he won't find the traitor instead he'll find the master by summoning kingdom heart which is breaking another rule. Gula is how Kingdom Hearts is going to get involved in the war and Gula's action are what caused the unions to become obsessed with Lux collecting. If Gula hadn't done this the war wouldn't have begin and if he didn't bring kingdom hearts into it the keyblade war's devastation wouldn't of hurt the whole world. And that would be perfectly in line with the Master to make the traitor hunt themselves.

If "deviating from the task" is really the only condition to unveil the traitor then yes, although from what I gathered the Lost Page tells much more about the traitor, including but not limited to that he or she "bears the sigil".
In the last third of Back Cover though Gula basically admits that the page is written so ambigiously that he alone couldn't make enough sense of it (but the "trust no one"-mantra plus his apparent general dislike of socializing prevented him from seeking aid).
In the final update of Browser-Chi he also admits to Skuld that he tried to find the traitor but failed by following false leads.

I agree with the notion of Gula instigating the probably decisive breaking point with his beyond stupid decision to try and summon Kingdom Hearts. When I watched that scene I was innerly screaming at Ava to bonk that idiot over the head and afterwards when she and Invi talk about how Gula started hoarding Lux like crazy (and not for its intended purpose, according to Invi), I actually facepalmed as I immediately realized that this is the point where the "greedy for Light"-issue from the Legend comes in as well as the claim that the war was fought over the original KH.

We don't know the actual end of the war and the ultimate fate of the Foretellers, but we DO know that the X-blade somehow shattered in its closing stages and the true KH was swallowed by Darkness.

I think it's funny you use him using keyblades as a strike against him. Considering users of darkness have been able to commit vile acts without them fine and the keyblade is the only weapon that can defeat the darkness. The point isn't that he didn't try to stop the war; it's that he couldn't and knew as much. There is no point I arranging another war when one was already looming, it's possible he wants kingdom hearts which is only possible from the future but his motives are unknown. For him to be another Xehanort is just a waste of an excellent character.

I think you misunderstand what Hirokey is implying.
The Keyblade is stated to be a weapon crafted for conquering the Light and was originally used for evil.
Yen Sid himself states this in DDD and adds that only after the Keyblade War the few remaining Keybladers decided to use the Keyblade to "protect the light instead".

Heck, the Master himself states he didn't give them Keyblades to protect the light (without revealing what he DID give it out for).
It's also telling that "Lux collection" is only possible via Keyblade, just like Xemnas creating his artificial KH from captured hearts is only possible via slaying Heartless with a Keyblade.
Furthermore, that bangle which collects Darkness and brings the Nightmares into being has to come from somewhere too.

No one actually intends to say that he's another Xehanort incarnation here I think, but while he's somewhat ambigious it does not mean that he cannot be a bad guy.
Heck, considering his options and powers (Nomura said he crafted the Keyblades in the image of the X-blade because he knows about it) it is possible that he's actually worse than Xehanort in the end.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Without going too deeply in all the implied "Xehanort wins"-scenarios (he's winning for the whole series already, all "accomplishments" made by the "heroes" in BBS, KH 1 and KH 2 rendered meaningless to some degree, so what?) and the cliché-ridden "The Apocalypse will happen because that stupid book says so and then stopped midway" there's also something else to possibly keep in mind and mull over and that's the fact that this whole "Book of Prophecies"-disaster and the "unavoidable fate"-bullshit has only any merit/significance because someone choose to make it so, not because it is a natural disaster or "divine decision".

Going by this assumption, there is the issue of why the Master of Masters wanted to see into the future in the first place and arguably starting all this mess to begin with.

Really, it seems like our differences boil down to whether we believe the future is something beyond the Master's (or anyone's) control. That's really what makes or breaks this whole deal, isn't it?

For him to be another Xehanort is just a waste of an excellent character.

That being said... yeah, the box situation is sketchy, and he might turn out to be evil after all. Oh well, I hope Square doesn't just make him another Xehanort or whatever. That'd be SO lame.

I'll admit that I do have a little bias towards distancing the Master from Xehanort. Don't we have enough Xehanorts already? Do we really need ANOTHER (ha) guy who wants to set the world on fire with a Keyblade War just because he was curious/bored?

Don't get me wrong, he's definitely suspicious. Hirokey, you did a very through job listing all the reasons that I didn't include in the OP. It's just... remember the Rebirth Theory? Seemed to make perfect sense at the time, to the point that a good chunk of the community had accepted the Foretellers being main character clones as canon. Only as time went on, it turned out that none of them have a particular inclination towards the light or dark (and even Ava eventually broke her pacifism; the only one that still stands today is Aced's eventual obsession with power), nor did any further evidence appear that tied them to the main characters they were supposedly related to.

And even before the Rebirth Theory, we also had the whole "6 apprentices, 1 master" setup in Ansem the Wise's group of students. And yet there's little to no other parallels tying the two parties together beyond this one.

I'm reluctant to accept that the Master is just a simple Xehanort parallel. Partly because of the reasons I've already explained in the OP, and also because none of the other character parallel theories have really held up over time.

 

[Hirokey123]

Oh I don't think he is simply a Xehanort parallel, if you want to know the truth I think he's the villain for the next saga. Who better to be a villain for the saga after Xehanort than a character whose entire shtick is to be unconcerned with the current saga, whose goals and thoughts lay past this point. Even more if Xehanort is part of Luxu's line well that means the entire saga has been dealing with the ramifications of the apprentice Luxu, so then who better to take the stage once Xehanort is gone than the Master who started it all. Heck the Master already has everything they need to, to be a more dangerous person than Xehanort ever was. Secrets of the keyblade and its making no one else has, is keyblade master in their own right, and is capable of creating things like dream eaters outside of dreams...he probably created the bangle as well.

Also while I don't believe in the rebirth theory I will say it's not true that no more connections surfaced. If you take a drink for every Roxas parallel Gula in the movie has you'd die of alcohol poisoning. Invi's being left behind, Invi spying on her friends on the order of the master, Invi being just as quick to draw her keyblade to solve the problems as Aced, etc.. are lot of blatant parallels to Aqua. Aced and Terra both break the rules of their master, be it making an alliance or trying to learn to control darkness. Aced may not of missed the title of master but he missed the title of leader, and just like Terra it was jealousy, doubt, and an inferiority complex over not getting the title they want that spurns their actions...and their other similarities kind of go without saying. Ava is a bit harder to place with Kairi seeing as Kairi has almost as much personality as wood. Ira I don't think felt very much like Riku though, he kinda reminded me more so of Eraqus than anything.

 

[Griewer]

Oh I don't think he is simply a Xehanort parallel, if you want to know the truth I think he's the villain for the next saga. Who better to be a villain for the saga after Xehanort than a character whose entire shtick is to be unconcerned with the current saga, whose goals and thoughts lay past this point. Even more if Xehanort is part of Luxu's line well that means the entire saga has been dealing with the ramifications of the apprentice Luxu, so then who better to take the stage once Xehanort is gone than the Master who started it all. Heck the Master already has everything they need to, to be a more dangerous person than Xehanort ever was. Secrets of the keyblade and its making no one else has, is keyblade master in their own right, and is capable of creating things like dream eaters outside of dreams...he probably created the bangle as well.

Also while I don't believe in the rebirth theory I will say it's not true that no more connections surfaced. If you take a drink for every Roxas parallel Gula in the movie has you'd die of alcohol poisoning. Invi's being left behind, Invi spying on her friends on the order of the master, Invi being just as quick to draw her keyblade to solve the problems as Aced, etc.. are lot of blatant parallels to Aqua. Aced and Terra both break the rules of their master, be it making an alliance or trying to learn to control darkness. Aced may not of missed the title of master but he missed the title of leader, and just like Terra it was jealousy, doubt, and an inferiority complex over not getting the title they want that spurns their actions...and their other similarities kind of go without saying. Ava is a bit harder to place with Kairi seeing as Kairi has almost as much personality as wood. Ira I don't think felt very much like Riku though, he kinda reminded me more so of Eraqus than anything.

Honestly... I'd rather not have MoM as the next big bad - he's just too similar to Xehanort with all this scheming around. Yet somehow I fear this is precisely the plan...
Rebirth is basically one of the most important aspects of the game. Almost nobody has truly died in the game yet so far as everyone seems to be coming back again and again but I'm not sure we should be talking about reincarnations/rebirths because at this point it'd be REALLY dull if every 3rd person would just turn out to be an already existing character in a newer body.

Gula is much more similar to Riku in my opinion. Both are smart and they both play a part in which they have to act behind the backs of their friends. Roxas is much more rash in my opinion.
Aced and Terra aren't really similar in the sense that Terra didn't want favoritism - he just wanted to achieve his dream; Aced on the other hand believes he is better suited to lead than Ira. But you're right in the sense that both of them have been played because of their feelings.
I agree about Invi and about Ava - mainly because we know very little about Kairi - but I can't agree on Ira because there is one very important difference between them: Eraqus believes that he can change the future while Ira doesn't. (see the dialogue between Young Xehanort and Young Eraqus)

 

[Audo]

I'd like for MoM to be the next Big Bad. He has more personality than all of the Xehanorts put together. At the very least, he'd be fun to watch.

Really, it seems like our differences boil down to whether we believe the future is something beyond the Master's (or anyone's) control. That's really what makes or breaks this whole deal, isn't it?

And yeah, this is the thing that I have a hard time grasping with KH -- does it actually believe that destiny is immutable and that there is, essentially, no free will, or does it believe that what many characters call destiny is just a result of their choices? Is the Master right in saying that there is no way to change the future because it's destined, or is there no way to change the future because he is specifically orchestrating it so that the future comes to be? This is the thing I don't quite get about KH, where it actually stands on this issue, because at some times it seems to suggest the former, but in others the latter. I suppose that might be the point -- to keep us guessing if, as Eraqus says, they actually can change the future or not. But it's a little unnerving for it to be so murky still, with more pointing to the former than the latter.

 

[BlackOsprey]

I'd like for MoM to be the next Big Bad. He has more personality than all of the Xehanorts put together. At the very least, he'd be fun to watch.

Completely agreed. But if he's gonna be the Big Bad, I want him to be different. Not just the "driven by insatiable curiosity that drives him to ruin everyone and everything with darkness" shtick that's been running since KH1 with some trollish theatrics on the side.

And yeah, this is the thing that I have a hard time grasping with KH -- does it actually believe that destiny is immutable and that there is, essentially, no free will, or does it believe that what many characters call destiny is just a result of their choices? Is the Master right in saying that there is no way to change the future because it's destined, or is there no way to change the future because he is specifically orchestrating it so that the future comes to be? This is the thing I don't quite get about KH, where it actually stands on this issue, because at some times it seems to suggest the former, but in others the latter. I suppose that might be the point -- to keep us guessing if, as Eraqus says, they actually can change the future or not. But it's a little unnerving for it to be so murky still, with more pointing to the former than the latter.

Yeah about that. I once saw a fairly convincing explanation on this based on Novikov's rule of self-consistency: the stuff in KH that is "destined" to happen are unavoidable because of temporal paradoxes.

Xehanort’s version, for example, works in an opposite form to what the MoM is doing. Xehanort, in person, goes backwards in time to a younger self.
Young Nort forgets but is forever sub consciously imprinted now. It’s a paradox of self consistency since the act of time travel created the history Xehanort said he can’t alter.


Xehanort can’t alter because he actively created it through his actions. He says time is immovable but that is called into question by his very actions since whether he actively remembers or not he created a loop of history that ensures young Nort becomes the old Nort eventually reborn in DDD.


How all his past selves gather without disrupting history is also self consistent. A temporal paradox in it’s most simple form. It shouldn’t BE possible but it’s happening.

So I guess the real question is what started this time loop in the first place. Which, annoyingly, is impossible to know because it's a time loop. So it's hard to say whether the Master did this on purpose, accidentally, or if the time loop itself was caused by something else entirely and the Master got caught up in it.

 

[Hirokey123]

It depends how you view destiny honestly. Free Will and destiny are not opposite, they are co-existing forces it's our free will to make our decisions that carves our destiny. However once we make a decision we can't undo that, it's etched forever even if we say "I take it back" you still now have altered everything ever so slightly. Free Will is what sets our path in stone which seems contradicting but makes perfect sense. Likewise we don't make choices by chance, everything is decided by a number of interworking elements. If you take a flip of a coin what it lands on isn't chance at all. The coin's flip will be determine by what face you start on, how strong you flip it and the air pressure in the room will determine how many rotations on the coin will make before landing. Our lives are very much the same way, that's why destiny isn't left up to chance, we don't carve our destiny by accident we do it deliberately. However because we can't possibly fathom all the complexities that go into our decisions nor the long term ramifications, everything might as well feel luck based. The same holds true for Kingdom Hearts I believe.

TAV's fate was set in stone yes, but not because some immutable hand. It was due to a lengthy series of decisions over their own life times and Xehanort's that set everything into place. Terra would always run open arms into MX because of Eraqus, Aqua would always fall to the realm of darkness because of the bond she had with Terra would never leave her to perish, and Ventus would always break his heart because his bond with Terra and Aqua never allow him to let them come to harm. So in one way MX is right that he didn't change their destinies, but it was MX's manipulative and evil choices that pushed them into making those choices in the first place. He is absolutely to blame no matter how hard he tries to avoid responsibility.

It's not the future has been seen and so it must be this way, it's that the only reason this future could be seen is because that's the future people are going to carve for themselves. I mean unless some kind of outside factor is going to be introduced to alter the circumstances there really is no reason any choices they make would change. The Master could change the future, he has the cheating knowledge of what will happen and that means he knows what to do to change it. But the fact is he saw that future and that means he had already made the choice to not change it. Ava is another case of this she finds out if she stops Luxu she can stop everything from happening, but the fact remains that the book is written and everything has already come to pass. Which means she failed to stop Luxu, it didn't stop her from attacking him but as we know for one reason or another she fails to end this.

This is Young Xehanort's mentality as well, his own feelings on who he becomes and what he does doesn't matter, his lack of knowledge doesn't matter. He won't remember this stuff and when he goes back he will grow into all those other Xehanort's, he will inevitably agree with them, and he will ultimately get whatever knowledge he is missing in time. There is little point in fretting the events of the future, they will happen even if you don't understand why.

 

[Luxu]

I like this theory!

But i'd like to share one of my own, perhaps he was trying to avoid a bigger cataclysm. Because light and dark are the same halves of the coin, that darkness from Kingdom Hearts had to be somewhere...And it was building up, the Master predicted this and pulled the strings leading to the Keyblade War so Kingdom Hearts would dive into darkness (But the worlds not get destroyed well a few of them at least) and the light would still be active. So basically, the whole idea is the Master caused darkness to take over before it could naturally take over and destroy everything.

And when you think about it, the Dandelions had the best idea. The best move to make in the Keyblade War, is simply to avoid the conflict. Or fight in the Keyblade War but inhumanly strong enough to be able to fight four Keyblade Masters in a row with no break between.

-I remember how he created the Chirithy which he claimed would help them yet as much as I love the little cat thing, he makes things worse. Chirithy acted as a way to stir paranoia for they were told the appearance of a nightmare chirithy indicated someone had fallen to darkness. Not to mention the damage the nightmare chirithy caused creating an army of nightmares and making every union fearful and angry. As our own Nightmare Chirithy said, it's hard to believe the master hadn't foreseen all this happening.

Thinking about it, Chirithys (Or Chirithes?) are made to not be self aware. The only exceptions to this are the Dark Chirithy and the Player's Chirithy. One of them born from darkness, and the other is implied to have been the original Chirithy. But did only one Nightmare Chirithy exist? Or did it just cling itself to the one with the most powerful light and in turn had the darkest shadow? But now come to think of it...Our Player helped stir some panic by making a Dark Chirithy, we helped caused the Keyblade War...But still, how did the Foretellers not think "Hey, maybe we shouldn't give the users this bangle that is said to purify the darkness!" because I mean. How did Gula or Ira not catch onto it? The two who are arguably the smartest.