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Theory for a "secret" true villain for KH III



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Vanitas666

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That's a awesome theory and there's more.
1. Riku got a Vanitas outfit rather then something Xehanort wear.
2. While Xehanorts reports I want to remember it does seem like he really do want perfect balance and he mention that he feel sorry for Ventus. Why would he mention he felt sorry in his Private journal if he wasn't telling the truth and if he only cared about his goals at the time, why would he care about Ventus. After this Vanitas could have influenced him to make him even more evil
3. Nomura said in a BBS interview something like this: "What I really want people to focus on is who the bad guy is, Vanitas or Xehanort?"
Xehanort seemed really obvious all the time so that should support your theory
 

billyzanesucks

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When did I suggest this? o_O I've been saying all this time that the apparition of Vanitas can be interpreted as an attempt to bring Vanitas forward in time (but failing).
Okay. . . I'm still having a hard time understanding exactly why it would have failed.

I think you need to re-read the quote I was referring to:



Although re-reading it myself I think I misinterpreted what was being said. Regardless, I don't think time travel quite works this way. So to bring things back full circle: I don't think it works that way.
I think it could.

So far the only person we've seen have the power to construct a body using their heart is Kairi, and that was under very specific circumstances. Not to mention, considering Vanitas's heart would've been really donked up, if he's anything like Ven he'd have to connect his heart to someone else's to heal, not just shoved into a new body. And as I mentioned it's KH3 that's dealing with trying to get all these characters new bodies, potentially Vanitas as well.
That's kind of my point. Constructing a body out of nothing is a circumstantial thing, and they'd have to heal Vanitas's heart as well. In addition to that, I doubt that Xehanort is aware of what AtW's data is capable of.
 

Ruran

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Okay. . . I'm still having a hard time understanding exactly why it would have failed.

It's them blurred lines again. To put it simply, by KH standards, Vanitas doesn't "exist". If any part of Vanitas survived his sortie with Ven then much like him he would have been sent into "sleep" and is awaiting his "Birth by Sleep". Sleep can be actuated to a form of "non existence".

I think it could.

How so?

That's kind of my point. Constructing a body out of nothing is a circumstantial thing, and they'd have to heal Vanitas's heart as well. In addition to that, I doubt that Xehanort is aware of what AtW's data is capable of.

Well I wouldn't say "nothing", it's more like bodies can be made out of simple materials (relatively speaking) like light and memories. But finding a new body being only half the issue, if Vanitas is anything like Ven (he'd be in worse condition to boot), he'd have to chill out in/with someone's heart to properly heal. Not unless there's another method we're not aware of yet (which is possible). We're not even fully aware of what AtW's data is capable of. XD Just that it'd help those that have been lost.
 

Sephiroth0812

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Why would YX not have simply gone to a time when Vanitas did have a body and picked him up then? Unless you mean that he lacked a proper body in the sense that it was created from nothing, but I don't really see how that would affect anything. It seems to work the same as other bodies.


Considering the powers displayed by hearts so many times before, I wouldn't be surprised.


It wouldn't necessarily mean that Xehanort wasn't the villain, just that he wasn't quite who we thought he was, like what happened with Ansem SoD and Apprentice Xehanort. I'm betting that Vanitas actually created the name "Xehanort" himself.


How would any of the SoDs benefit from carrying a heart without a body of its own? Sure, maybe they could have used it to possess Sora or something, but Xehanort would be capable of doing that on his own based on what we are currently being told.

A: If golden eyes are a sign of Xehanort, and Xehanort is Vanitas, then golden eyes are a sign of Vanitas. Naturally, Nomura would not just say that Xehanort was Vanitas, whether it was true or not. B: If Vanitas's heart went to Xehanort after defeat, it may have been able to regain its strength and become more logical after touching a heart that wasn't pure darkness or light.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "influence". I meant that Ansem SoD may have transferred Vanitas's heart to YX to ensure his ability to move through time and, because of the loop, that Vanitas would end up taking over, gradually.

Because Vanitas most likely does not have a version of himself waiting at the destination, as Ventus does not count as "existing" right now and depending on how much of Vanitas maybe "Xehanort" Xigbar or the present MX may not count as a "version of him".

Yeah, and taking into consideration those powers of hearts you really think a heart as powerful as the one of one of the most powerful Keyblade Masters in existence (O-ton DDD journal on MX) could be supplanted by a crippled piece of junk like Vanitas' heart must be after the finale of BBS?

That doesn't add up though with Xehanort's whole life so far, as Eraqus and Yen Sid know him from before he even ever thought of creating Vanitas. After all, creating Vanitas was just a plan Xehanort came up with after it became apparent that he couldn't use Ventus the way he wanted to.
And besides, pulling the same twist twice like with Ansem SoD and Xehanort would be pretty lackluster. Nomura is not that uncreative.

Considering Xehanort's ability to predict things and estimate how his adversaries will act, it's entirely possible that they brought along Vanitas' heart to eventually recreate him with the help of the Key to return Hearts. That Nomura explicitly points out that Vanitas has no physical presence unlike Xemnas and Ansem has to have a meaning.

There is a logical error in that Xehanort always had the golden eyes while Vanitas had not, not to mention that while Nomura usually is pretty vague, his statements towards Braig gaining golden eyes because of his connection to Xehanort were pretty clear.
Even if Vanitas' heart went to Xehanort after his defeat in BBS and it gradually healed, it would still not be able to take over the whole ride.
Not to mention that "forging the X-blade" and restarting the Keyblade War was always Xehanort's life goal. It was even his goal way before he even thought of creating Vanitas in the first place.

Ansem SoD does not need to transfer Vanitas' heart to ensure YMX can time travel because Ansem SoD himself has this power after discarding his body in Radiant Garden which then was inhabited by Xemnas.


Ummm...If I might dissolve this a bit?

Can we do a head count on: 1) peeps with gold eyes + pointy ears, and 2) peeps with only gold eyes

Plus, if Vanitas looks like Sora...would Sora having a version of himself at the "destination" help out Vanitas and the others, too? I mean, MX is simply AMAZING at manipulating our heroes. And technically since Sora has Ven's fragmented heart...might he have a bit of Vanitas too? Ven and Vanitas could both be considered the same AND different hearts. Could MX posess Sora through Vanitas through Ven? If YMX has a piece of Vanitas' heart, maybe the whole of Team Xehanort does. MX never said he'd give up on Sora, did he? This gives me chills just thinking about it. Sora's heart is connected to SO MANY hearts, why not Xehanort himself?

We cannot say if Vanitas has pointy ears or not because his ears are hidden by that metal jaw-piece from his helmet.

Nope, it wouldn't because Sora is not "a version of Vanitas". Vanitas has no connection to Sora, him looking like Sora is just a side effect of the connection between Sora and Ven.
If anyone could count as a version of him it would be Ven, but Ven also doesn't truly exist right now and awaits his Birth by Sleep, so from that side there is no version of Vanitas waiting at the destination.
Considering he might have a Xehanort-seed though, one of the other Xehanort's may perhaps count as a version of him.

That's a awesome theory and there's more.
1. Riku got a Vanitas outfit rather then something Xehanort wear.
2. While Xehanorts reports I want to remember it does seem like he really do want perfect balance and he mention that he feel sorry for Ventus. Why would he mention he felt sorry in his Private journal if he wasn't telling the truth and if he only cared about his goals at the time, why would he care about Ventus. After this Vanitas could have influenced him to make him even more evil
3. Nomura said in a BBS interview something like this: "What I really want people to focus on is who the bad guy is, Vanitas or Xehanort?"
Xehanort seemed really obvious all the time so that should support your theory

1. That outfit seems to be either more something darkness related or something Xehanort himself bestows upon his dark apprentices rather than a hint towards Vanitas having control over everything.
Vanitas wasn't involved at all in Ansem SoD possessing Riku.
2. Xehanort's brabbling about balance was only genuine (if at all, since he's a damn good actor) during his younger years, now it serves only as an excuse for him to commit his atrocities. I also don't get from where you get the impression that he felt sorry for Ven. He never cared a bit about Ventus at all. He only took him as an apprentice with the idea in the back of his head to one day steal his body, and when that didn't work he resolved to use him as a tool in his schemes to forge the X-blade, completely willfully nearly destroying the kid's heart.
That he left him on Destiny Islands was not because he liked the kid, but because he saw no more use for the broken tool so he dumped it on his homeworld, which he himself refers to as a prison. Not to mention it's extremely cynical to leave somebody to "die peacefully" who is in this very predicament because of your own actions for which you feel zero remorse.
That Xehanort cares only about his goals can also be taken straight from his journals because he treats both Terra and Ven only as pawns for his schemes all of the time.
3. Care to give me a link to that interview, because I do not remember Nomura saying something like this at all.
 

Vanitas666

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1. That outfit seems to be either more something darkness related or something Xehanort himself bestows upon his dark apprentices rather than a hint towards Vanitas having control over everything.
Vanitas wasn't involved at all in Ansem SoD possessing Riku.
2. Xehanort's brabbling about balance was only genuine (if at all, since he's a damn good actor) during his younger years, now it serves only as an excuse for him to commit his atrocities. I also don't get from where you get the impression that he felt sorry for Ven. He never cared a bit about Ventus at all. He only took him as an apprentice with the idea in the back of his head to one day steal his body, and when that didn't work he resolved to use him as a tool in his schemes to forge the X-blade, completely willfully nearly destroying the kid's heart.
That he left him on Destiny Islands was not because he liked the kid, but because he saw no more use for the broken tool so he dumped it on his homeworld, which he himself refers to as a prison. Not to mention it's extremely cynical to leave somebody to "die peacefully" who is in this very predicament because of your own actions for which you feel zero remorse.
That Xehanort cares only about his goals can also be taken straight from his journals because he treats both Terra and Ven only as pawns for his schemes all of the time.
3. Care to give me a link to that interview, because I do not remember Nomura saying something like this at all.

Xehanort's Report VIII
My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in.

Xehanort's Report X
But Vanitas took too much of Ventus's heart, and from that fracture, I could see the last of Ventus's light was slipping away. The boy deserved a place to spend his final moments peacefully. And what should come to mind but my own boyhood home.

Xehanort thought it was very important to go through with his plan but he still cared enough about Ventus to take him to DI for the pure reason that it would be a good final resting world.

About the interview I Might look it up tomorrow but it will be hard to find and I need to go to sleep now.
 

ChibiHearts249

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Considering Xehanort's ability to predict things and estimate how his adversaries will act, it's entirely possible that they brought along Vanitas' heart to eventually recreate him with the help of the Key to return Hearts.

Very good observation! And idk about "bringing him along," but he's there in the corner of their hearts and minds, regardless. Lost, never forgotten.

Nope, it wouldn't because Sora is not "a version of Vanitas". Vanitas has no connection to Sora, him looking like Sora is just a side effect of the connection between Sora and Ven.

That's the thing about Vanitas, though; Ven's heart hadn't even come into contact with Sora's heart yet at the time of his birth (that we know of). There's a piece of THIS puzzle that we're missing, still. That's why I brought up a possible connection between Sora and Vanitas through Ven. Why did Nomura decide to make Vanitas look like Sora if the two HAVE never and never WILL have a connection?

If anyone could count as a version of him it would be Ven, but Ven also doesn't truly exist right now and awaits his Birth by Sleep, so from that side there is no version of Vanitas waiting at the destination.

Of COURSE Ven truly exists right now! All you need is a heart, and his may be broken, but it still exists! And I don't even think you need a heart; Xemnas doesn't have one. Xemnas has a possible "replacement heart" that Nobodies get, which is a lot weaker than even a real heart fragment, in my book.

I also don't get from where you get the impression that he felt sorry for Ven. He never cared a bit about Ventus at all.

I don't think Xehanort is totally evil, either. He's a good actor, and he may NOT give a hoot about light/dark equilibrium after all. But my first impression: NOT EVIL. He's a bad guy, yes. But I think he DID care for Ven. In a weird way. He's a scientist who just has something to prove. Don't we ALL have something that we want to see?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Xehanort's Report VIII


Xehanort's Report X


Xehanort thought it was very important to go through with his plan but he still cared enough about Ventus to take him to DI for the pure reason that it would be a good final resting world.

About the interview I Might look it up tomorrow but it will be hard to find and I need to go to sleep now.

That's what Xehanort states to be his "belief", and we also do not know when exactly he wrote that. Not to mention that a "tyranny of light" doesn't exist and the worlds were perfectly fine until Xehanort started to mess things up and he himself in the same paragraph of the report states that the entire universe must be "reorganized" (which in essence means destroyed) around darkness.

This one sentence can be interpreted very differently and it doesn't imply any emphatic feelings for the kid at all, because if he had such feelings he would never have damaged him like that in the first place.
In-game, Xehanort's opinion on his homeworld is said in his own world pretty differently:
There, you see? An empty world, like a prison. I imagine you'll be
right at home.

Xehanort dumped Ven on Destiny Islands because he saw no more use for him, not because he has any friendly feelings.

The best first address to look would be the KHInsider main site since it has most of the interviews archived sorted by game.
The main reason I asked for it is because I know most of the interviews (not all, but most) and I doubt that such a statement of Nomura would have slipped my radar.

Very good observation! And idk about "bringing him along," but he's there in the corner of their hearts and minds, regardless. Lost, never forgotten.



That's the thing about Vanitas, though; Ven's heart hadn't even come into contact with Sora's heart yet at the time of his birth (that we know of). There's a piece of THIS puzzle that we're missing, still. That's why I brought up a possible connection between Sora and Vanitas through Ven. Why did Nomura decide to make Vanitas look like Sora if the two HAVE never and never WILL have a connection?



Of COURSE Ven truly exists right now! All you need is a heart, and his may be broken, but it still exists! And I don't even think you need a heart; Xemnas doesn't have one. Xemnas has a possible "replacement heart" that Nobodies get, which is a lot weaker than even a real heart fragment, in my book.



I don't think Xehanort is totally evil, either. He's a good actor, and he may NOT give a hoot about light/dark equilibrium after all. But my first impression: NOT EVIL. He's a bad guy, yes. But I think he DID care for Ven. In a weird way. He's a scientist who just has something to prove. Don't we ALL have something that we want to see?

It's nearly obvious that Vanitas will play some role, in whatever fashion. Him being one (or becoming one) of the thirteen seekers is however one of the most plausible possibilities out there. Considering that Ven's heart survived the destruction of the proto-X-blade in BBS, it can be safely assumed that Vanitas' heart may have survived as well, even if badly mauled.

Nope, that was already resolved somewhere along the way, as Vanitas never took off his helmet before Sora connected with Ven (which was shortly after Vanitas' creation, since Xehanort took him to DI not long after the split happened), it can be safely assumed that he either had no face or was simply a black-haired Ven before.
There is a bit of information about that from the novels (totally black face and red eyes, like an Unversed), but since the novels are of ambigious canon value, we cannot just take it as given fact.

Why did Nomura do that? Because of shock value of course.
If you want to be technical you can say Sora and Vanitas are connected by proxy through Ven, but they do not have anything to do with each other directly.
That's what Nomura himself had to say about it:
BBS Ultimania said:
I knew that Ventus should look either like Sora or Roxas, and I wasn't sure which one to go with, but I thought Vanitas looking like Sora would have a bigger impact so I had Ventus look like Roxas instead. And there is a reason that Vanitas looks like Sora. As Sora filled in Ventus' fractured heart, the fractured part (Vanitas) was effected by Sora and ended up with Sora's face. So if it had been Riku who had filled in Ventus' heart, Vanitas would have looked like Riku.

Going by this, Vanitas' looks have really nothing more to go with it than to show who helped Ventus' heart survive, as the Riku-example used by Nomura shows.

"Existence" in terms of how the universe of KH works means to physically exist as a full being in the Realm of Light and Ventus is neither at the moment. His heart is hidden away in Sora while his body is sealed away in a special chamber in the Realm of In-between. A heart alone isn't enough, not to mention that in Ven's case, the heart is buried and hidden elsewhere.
I also don't get what this has to do with Xemnas.
He has a heart, period, it being a new one grown as a replacement is no different to a "normal" heart, heart is heart, there is no difference in their make up, only maybe in their degree of development.
Nonetheless, Xemnas was brought forth from the past by Young Xehanort, so regardless where his heart is now, he doesn't exist per se anymore in the present in the definition of what a full existence means.
Roxas, Naminé and Xion also do not exist right now despite them having hearts and their spirits/consciousnesses still being there.

I'd say to each his own interpretation, although I really don't see from where you get the impression that he ever genuinely cared for Ventus at all, as even Xehanort's own reports indicate otherwise:
So there I stood, with vast knowledge in one gnarled, dying hand, and newfound purpose in the other. The next step was clear: I needed a new vessel.
And that was when I met Ventus and made him my pupil. We were destined to meet, and I could sense the potential within him, but the boy was too benign for his own good. I came to the conclusion he was too frail to serve as a vessel, and decided to use him for a second purpose I had in mind.

The recount of when he met the kid are framed by two clear statements by him that he only saw him as a tool to use for his own gain, he even flat out says "use".
The so-often recited episode that he left him on Destiny Islands is the only (arguably) more human action shown from Xehanort, and really ambigious at best, it being already disqualified anyways because he caused the predicament himself and there is no other hint or indication anywhere during the series that he cares about any other sentient being than himself.
 

Vanitas666

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Sephiroth0812

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Since Xehanort's reports themselves are also vague to a degree (and tend to be very subjective due to be, y'know, written by him), there is of course always room for differing interpretations.
And in the interpretation I follow, this one action with leaving Ven on DI when looked at together with all the other stuff we know about Xehanort, not to mention his in-game statements about the world being a prison, does not serve to display him in any positive light.
Just dumping a tool he has no more use for on a world he deems as a prison anyways is much more in-character for Xehanort than to have him suddenly have a fit of pity out of nowhere when he never before even cared for the kid beyond using him as a tool.

Anyways, thanks for the effort, although you got one row to high with the link, this one Famitsu Interview Nomura New - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider is the correct one where he indeed says this concerning Maleficent, Xehanort and Vanitas.
Can't believe I didn't get those interviews memorized, as both the one you posted and this one hold also some very interesting tidbits of information.

Like so many things though, this is also open to interpretation as it was before BBS was released and during the course of BBS Xehanort makes it indeed seem for a while thanks to his acting skills that Vanitas is indeed the true enemy. However, during the finale at the Keyblade Graveyard (or even earlier, when he destroys the Land of Departure), Xehanort makes it pretty clear that he is the mastermind and the one who calls the shots.
 
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