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Theory concerning Vessels



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KeyToDestiny

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The theory I'm about to post is one I discussed with Sephiroth. Seeing his response to it definitely inspired me to share it here so here it goes.

Now on the previous Marluxia theory post has gotten me so involved and interested in the subject that I devised a little theory and after talking it out with you guys some more, have definitely figured out the True Org. XIII seating pattern Nomura mentioned in his DDD Ultimania interview.

Now he mentioned a "everyone being seated properly even regarding people who didn't show up in DDD" and "the hooded figures are familiar characters."


—We’re intrigued as to who the Xehanorts will use to replace Sora as the 13th Darkness.


Nomura: I left that a mystery in order to intrigue you all, of course. It’s unclear who about half of the other twelve are too, seeing as they didn’t come out from under their black coats, so I would love for you to try thinking about their true identities. It’s all set up properly who is sitting in each seat, even regarding people who didn’t show up in the scenario of this title

--Are there also familiar characters?
Nomura: There are many familiar characters. However, fundamentally who they are is still a secret.
Now if we count in original characters who didn't show up in DDD nor had a journal entry we'd have: Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia, Larxene, Terranort, Eraqus, Repliku, HPO and even Vanitas while he may have shown up for a split second, he strangely didn't have a journal entry and wasn't mentioned at all afterward. But besides him, the other people mentioned we didn't hear anything about them. Hell we don't even know what's going on with them including Vanitas. HPO could almost immediately be crossed off since we know they're still at Twilight Town and obviously couldn't be Norts. So it would leave us with Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia, Larxene, Terranort, Eraqus, Repliku and Vanitas as the only ones with no real alibis as of DDD. Repliku may still be dead and Eraqus may still reside in Terra. But the thing is we're not very sure anymore as of now. Hirokey was on to something indeed when he brought this up.


So onto my theory on the seating. Notice the pattern as we see it in seating numbers? Two hooded figures between Xigbar and Saix(who's the only revealed member of the old group still in his old seat strangely) and four hooded figures between Saix and YX? Why such an awkward set of blanks? Because if you use the people who barely or played no role or appearance in DDD then you could fit in who should be sitting in each appropriate seat. Like how the old Org's seating was built on who was picked up and joined first. The new Org would be on who got norted first. It's why there's an awkward set of blanks between Xigbar and Saix because those two would have been norted a year or so apart if Saix really did get Norted when he was young. Now who could have been norted after Xigbar and before Saix? Vanitas and Terranort.


Note we never actually know when Vanitas got infected by MX's heart. All we deduced because of his yellow Xehanort eyes that was revealed at the climax of BBS, that the Nortification happened sometime between his birth to the big clash with TAV at KG. It could have literally been at anytime since not once did Vanitas take off his helmet for the viewers to see prior to the big reveal so we wouldn't know if he had the yellow eyes from the beginning. The games and even the novels make no mention on MX sharing a piece of his heart with Vanitas years prior to BBS. Yet we merely assumed Nortification just had to have happened at his birth but I do have a theory on when he may have done so. Remember Xehanort wanted the X-Blade forged and to use said power to open Kingdom Hearts. Now do we think he'd be comfortable having someone like Vanitas wield such power by himself? Of course not. Vanitas is unpredictable and dangerous. He knows this. Vanitas is also reckless as he wanted to start a ruckus at the beginning with "breaking Ven in" which MX scolded him for such a suggestion. Also, he was going to off Ventus even though MX still needed him for the plan. Vanitas even acknowledged this yet didn't care. That dangerous attitude surely wouldn't slide past a man like MX. So with abilities as a Keyblade Master, he could spread a piece of his heart into another person and use them as a vessel. But at the time, he didn't have much "practice" using such an ability so he didn't want to do so until he was sure of it's value. Even for taking Terra's body. So that's where Braig comes in. He'd use him as not only an accomplice but as the first to test out his Nortification trick then after Braig proved to be a success, he was confident on his plan to take Terra's body and keep Vanitas on check when the time comes. So when Vanitas and Aqua duke it out in Neverland and both end up knocking each other out, MX found the perfect time to snag Vanitas and take him off to be given the "Nort". Notice how Vanitas just "disappears" after Aqua wakes up? If Vanitas himself had woken up, don't you think he'd finish Aqua off right there and then like he intended to? Vanitas is ruthless. He even attacked Aqua later on when her guard was down so why wouldn't have taken the chance to off her then in Neverland if he woke up first? It's simple. He didn't wake up but was taken away by MX. Notice how next we see Vanitas, he's goading Ventus to hurry up and forge the X-blade? And then does so afterwards when they meet in KG? And then coincidentally that's when we see Vanitas' face which shows off the Xehanort eyes close up like Braig's did.

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So it basically what I'm theorizing is that Braig would technically be the first seeded vessel of Xehanort's which explain why he sits at Number IV now after the main 3 Xehanorts besides his role as his accomplice. Then Vanitas, MX's student, would then be sitting at Number V since he got Norted after Braig did. Then Terra(nort) who gets norted after that so he'd sit perfectly at Number VI right before Saix/Isa who wouldn't get norted until afterwards possibly even before he became a Nobody. Meaning while he was still the young Isa.

And there's some unintended irony to this since Braig/Xigbar would be sitting inbetween his two main partners in crime after MX. To his left, would sit his partner in crime who in their Nobody lives, tricked the old Org XIII into becoming Xehanort vessels aka Xemnas. And to his right, would sit his partner in crime who in their apprentice years, manipulated the other apprentices and Ansem The Wise into conducting dangerous experiments with the Heartless and endangering the people of the town aka Terranort/Apprentice Xehanort.

On how Vanitas could be sitting in a throne right now and how he was sitting in one when they all gathered at TWTNW to welcome MX and the 13th vessel, well we know that his presence is definitely still out there as YX and Ventus proved. In my theory, YX who may have been carrying his heart, then with the help of Ansem SOD or another Nort, had Vanitas project some sort of "temporary shell" like a ghostly figure in a Org XIII hood basically. We didn't get to see any of the hooded figures move about or do anything so it's not a completely absurd idea to point out. Vanitas would simply be what Ansem SOD was before acquiring a body through Riku, a heart projecting some "ghostly shell" hidden inside a hood aka Brown Robe guy. Except it's Vanitas inside the Org XIII robe until MX gets him a body before the big clash in KHIII with the 7 Lights. And maybe some irony that Vanitas would be sitting right next to Ansem SOD who was basically in a similar situation as him with the lack of body and all.

As for the rest of them after Saix and YX, I think Hiro made a well founded point on who they'd be and if his theory and implications work well, then we could see Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia and Larxene take those next seats since they'd then be seated properly since not only do they more or less retain their order number but they'd be norted after Saix/Isa. And we have no idea when all these vessels after Saix was norted anyway so we could possibly assume that they could have been norted somewhere between their recompletion and when they went off to make plans to get their 13th vessel in DDD or during DDD since we don't know where they are and for that fact where Terranort is and if we factor in that he may have been the one responsible for norting Isa/Saix, he may have done so to the others after they got brought back. Then they might have been taken just like Braig and Isa like Nomura hinted at in the DDD interview.

--Xigbar and Saix appeared as members of Organisation XIII. Did they return as humans like Lea and the others?

Nomura: The conditions of becoming a human have been met, so you’d think they had returned, wouldn’t you? For them to have been with Xehanort and the others, perhaps they were collected after they had become humans and before Lea and the others woke up. You could say the same for the members of Organisation XIII that didn’t appear in this title, however… I’d rather everyone use their imaginations.

So all in all, this is basically my theory on the long run on how the seating truly works. That would only leave the 13th seat up for grabs and whoever this person would be, it would definitely be a surprise. My "little" theory turned out to be one big rambling session at the end lol. ^.^

Edit: Removed the Ansem bit on DDD since he did have a journal entry and I forgot about it.... again. Thanks Sephy! >.<
 
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Sephiroth0812

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Heh, one thing you might want to correct is the passage about Ansem the Wise not having a journal entry in DDD. ;)

You accidentally left that one in despite checking up that he did indeed have one. ^__^
 

KeyToDestiny

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Heh, one thing you might want to correct is the passage about Ansem the Wise not having a journal entry in DDD. ;)

You accidentally left that one in despite checking up that he did indeed have one. ^__^

Oops my bad! I'll get on it right now! >.<
 

Sephiroth0812

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You did forget some people... Everyone from x chi.

Ahem, it seems you missed the whole point of this theory:
Nomura said:
It’s all set up properly who is sitting in each seat, even regarding people who didn’t show up in the scenario of this title
...

Nomura: There are many familiar characters. However, fundamentally who they are is still a secret.

The theory is based on Nomura's statement that there will be many familiar characters among the New Organisation and his hint towards that the seating of each member may hint towards who is sitting there.

The characters from x [chi] are NOT familiar characters, they are NEW characters, we do not even know their faces or names (except for Ava and Ephemera).

Like how the old Org's seating was built on who was picked up and joined first. The new Org would be on who got norted first. It's why there's an awkward set of blanks between Xigbar and Saix because those two would have been norted a year or so apart if Saix really did get Norted when he was young. Now who could have been norted after Xigbar and before Saix? Vanitas and Terranort.

THIS part is practically the whole basis this theory is built upon and if you read the whole thing it'll make sense.
 

Hirokey123

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Yep also outside of the foreteller that only leaves Ephemera, your character, and Chirithy. But Chirithy is....well self explanatory, Ephemera was not at all revealed at that time, and our playable character has no set appearance or identity.

Anyway while I can get behind Terranort being in the organization (though I'd find it more interesting if he wasn't) Vanitas was cited as a special case of not having any sort of physical form at the time being made only visible to us through Ven's heart reacting to his presence. So I would sooner bet that he is actually Master Xehanort's final 13th darkness candidate provided he could find him a vessel. And part of me suspects that is why Xemnas was so feverently looking for Ven's body because that body is not just the original body of Ventus, but of Vanitas.

Since we have a weird case surrounding Braig and Xigbar (how it seems like Xigbar in DDD was the revived Braig but then we saw a braig closer to his BBS appearance with YX in 2.5) I suspect both of them might be in the organization, they certainly have enough differences between the two. With Xigbar coming before Braig because Xigbar be revived Braig's past. Also who can pass up the chance to give us evil fred and george? We've seen how trolly one Braig so let's see that doubled up.

As for when the Norting of Vanitas occurred I actually believe Ventus was already half nort before Vanitas's birth. In his reports Master Xehanort said he chose Ventus to be a vessel and then later found Ventus unfit. I think he might of put a piece of his darkness into Ventus before hand and it didn't root so Ventus didn't become half nort and that's why Xehanort knew he couldn't use Ventus, as he is, as a vessel. Later when he ripped out all of Ven's darkness he also ripped out his own darkness he put in Ven and unlike Ventus the piece immediately took so Vanitas was born half Xehanort. There is more to this theory but I'll save that for another day.
 
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KeyToDestiny

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Yeah basically what Sephy and Hiro said in a nutshell. The point of my theory was concerning Nomura's statement on familiar characters at the time of DDD. The Chi/XChi titles haven't been introduced nor mentioned at that time period so why would Nomura tell us to think about the rest of the hooded figures' true identities and connect it with the seating pattern and on the characters being familiar to us? Why would that statement connect to characters from the Chi series who we knew nothing about at that time and still know nothing about at this time period? All we know is Ephemera, Chirity and Master Ava. We don't know the names of the other Foretellers or what they look like underneath their hoods and even the characters we mentioned we know very little on. Hence why they wouldn't be familiar to us.

If Nomura had Chi in mind during that time he did that interview with DDD and he was intending to have the hooded figures be mostly people from that time period, then he wouldn't have said what he said. He wouldn't have told us to figure out who the rest of them could be based on seating and how familiar they are to us. There would have been no point since we wouldn't have been able to guess.

Yep also outside of the foreteller that only leaves Ephemera, your character, and Chirithy. But Chirithy is....well self explanatory, Ephemera was not at all revealed at that time, and our playable character has no set appearance or identity.

Anyway while I can get behind Terranort being in the organization (though I'd find it more interesting if he wasn't) Vanitas was cited as a special case of not having any sort of physical form at the time being made only visible to us through Ven's heart reacting to his presence. So I would sooner bet that he is actually Master Xehanort's final 13th darkness candidate provided he could find him a vessel. And part of me suspects that is why Xemnas was so feverently looking for Ven's body because that body is not just the original body of Ventus, but of Vanitas.

Since we have a weird case surrounding Braig and Xigbar (how it seems like Xigbar in DDD was the revived Braig but then we saw a braig closer to his BBS appearance with YX in 2.5) I suspect both of them might be in the organization, they certainly have enough differences between the two. With Xigbar coming before Braig because Xigbar be revived Braig's past. Also who can pass up the chance to give us evil fred and george? We've seen how trolly one Braig so let's see that doubled up.

As for when the Norting of Vanitas occurred I actually believe Ventus was already half nort before Vanitas's birth. In his reports Master Xehanort said he chose Ventus to be a vessel and then later found Ventus unfit. I think he might of put a piece of his darkness into Ventus before hand and it didn't root so Ventus didn't become half nort and that's why Xehanort knew he couldn't use Ventus, as he is, as a vessel. Later when he ripped out all of Ven's darkness he also ripped out his own darkness he put in Ven and unlike Ventus the piece immediately took so Vanitas was born half Xehanort. There is more to this theory but I'll save that for another day.


While it certainly is possible for Vanitas to be the 13th, it wouldn't make much sense to me on why Xehanort didn't include Vanitas in the new group prior despite his prior "seeding" and had people like Riku, Roxas and then Sora as candidates for the 13th seat then all of a sudden Vanitas gets it just like that. I get it might be because he didn't have a body though he could have just used time travel if it was that essential to get Vantias. Plus I'm thinking time travel must have more drawbacks and troubles than we realize so he may have just been limiting the amount of use of time travel. It would be a bit too predictable and Vanitas while he might not have had a physical presence at the time of DDD, he most certainly was implied to have a spiritual presence around as YX and Ventus proved. In my theory, if his heart was really residing in YX at the time, then he along with another Nort could have just made a temporary "shell" for Vanitas to stay in while being hooded with the Black coat. He'd be an essence similar to Ansem SOD before he got Riku's body aka Brown Robe Guy. None of the hooded members but Saix/Isa moved or did anything at the time of the gathering so all Vanitas would have had to do is just sit there and then be taken back to whatever time period he came from along with the other Norts.

The moment DDD was released, I think we all must have deduced why Xemnas wanted to search for Ventus in the Chamber of Waking. Not just because of his "Terra instincts" or on "being reuniting with his best friend". But to get the empty, vulnerable shell of Ventus as a vessel more importantly, a way to possibly bring back Vanitas since by the end of the day, his original source of birth came from Ventus despite him becoming his own person down the road similar to Roxas, Namine and Xion.

Braig and Xigbar being in the group while chaotic as it would be, would be redundant since they're basically the same person. And for the 2.5 Secret Ending, I just assumed it was just Braig before going off with YX to get the plans ready on securing the 13th vessel for Xehanort. Along the way, he may have just somehow "turned" into Xigbar again. I mean the Xehanort heart inside him is still there after all. It could have been to blame for this. Though I can't shoot down the possibility that Xigbar of DDD was the one from the past since we didn't get much story on his return for DDD. Only that he and Saix/Isa may have been recompleted in the lab with the other Apprentices and Lea.

now i'm just contradicting myself -.-


As for Ventus, well that is an interesting point since we don't know his whole history with MX during those four years prior to BBS or how MX came to find him and take him on as an apprentice. Though I find it hard to believe that he could have put a piece of his dark heart inside Ventus or he'd have mention so in the Reports. Sure he was trying to make Ventus his vessel but he wanted to prepare him first before he decided to take his body. Just like Terra, he wanted to just keep training and "conditioning" him into being the ideal vessel before he decided to transfer his own heart inside the intended person. Though I would like to hear your whole theory on it in full whenever you get the time. Maybe further elaboration on the subject may have me changing my stance on it.
 
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