TV ► The Whoniverse (Doctor Who and spinoffs)

[WaltK]

The current series is gooooooood! Russell T Davies coming back is honestly the best thing that's happened to the show in years.

To speculate on current episodes: I am convinced that either Mrs Flood, or the reoccurring Susan Twist character, or both, are Susan Foreman.

 

[Xickin]

I've needed to talk to someone about this, because I think the new series is terrible. Please explain what about it brings you entertainment and why you think it's the best thing that's happened to the show in years. I only got as far as watching Ncuti Gatwa's first stand-alone special (where he meets Ruby).

 

[WaltK]

I've needed to talk to someone about this, because I think the new series is terrible. Please explain what about it brings you entertainment and why you think it's the best thing that's happened to the show in years. I only got as far as watching Ncuti Gatwa's first stand-alone special (where he meets Ruby).

Huh.
If anything, I'm more interested to hear what about it you don't like?

EDIT: but I guess, to answer your question, I feel like RTD returning is the best thing to happen in years because, simply, I'm of the opinion that the show was at its best when he was the showrunner in the 00s. The current series feels like a natural evolution of that era. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Xickin]

Okay, so I don't like it because the David Tennant Specials started out great, but as soon as we got to "A human being non-binary (gender)" saves the day, I was immediately disappointed. Disney had gotten their claws into it, and they're on a huge WOKE tour. Now, that ISN'T why it ruined WHO for me. What ruined it for me was the fact about how there was absolutely no nuance; there's room for liberalism and woke-ness in any series, but it needs to be written well. RTD betrayed me -and I feel a lot of fans- in that regard. IMO you are right to see 00's WHO was probably the best era for it, but I saw almost no glimmer of that in the new series, and I don't understand how it could be a natural evolution.
Now, I was more than willing to give Ncuti Gatwa a fair shake (I even loved the holding-on gloves invention, and the mention of "new science") but the music, dear GOD the music. I will not say what is and what is not a good musical (given I'm not huge into them), but I do know someone who saw the Goblin King and the new season episode, and they said it actively ruined their day. Regardless, I stopped after the first Xmas special, and have had no interest in continuing. To show how strongly I feel about this, I would say I liked Jodie Whittaker bette.

 

[WaltK]

Disney had gotten their claws into it, and they're on a huge WOKE tour.

Why does everyone seem to think this is Disney's doing? This "woke parade", as you call it, has been going on since Jodie's era, if not longer.

 

[Xickin]

1. I said "woke tour" thank you. But I actually think you're more accurate, because a parade has attention called to it, which is definitely how I feel a lot of media is going these days. A lot of people just seem to be shouting "Over here! Over here! We have what they have to!" without actually even fully understanding it, or even caring to.
2. I believe the reason is because of how Disney has shifted gears in how they present their product. This huge swath of change is from a company that not less than decade ago was hostile to LGBTQ+ representation in Gravity Falls (2012 - 2016). But they're not stupid, and can see the change in culture, thus they want to be ahead of the curb, and -if the opportunity arrises- let us forget their more questionable past. Now don't get me wrong, it's great on a social scale for a mega corporation like Disney to show more representation, but it's just frankly become pandering at this point. But on that note, I'd also like to point towards the good LGBTQ+ representation: Captain Jack Harkness, River Song, Vastra & Jenny, Ianto Jones (Torchwood), Owen Harper (Torchwood), the Cassini "sisters" (the list goes on). My point is that Doctor Who is one of the most woke shows there ever has been, and nothing needed to change, but now they seem to be dousing us in it. What's coming out cannot be what RTD really wanted to write.
PS I almost feel like this is one of those things that no one wants to criticize because they're afraid of getting backlash due to the nature of the topic.
PPS Also, this always bothered me, but the whole gender thing being the solution in David Tennant's first special - why should Donna's daughter's personal identification matter? Gender is a human construct, so why should that have any say in the situation they're in?

 

[BufferAqua]

RTD is back?! I need to get back into Doctor Who.

PS I almost feel like this is one of those things that no one wants to criticize because they're afraid of getting backlash due to the nature of the topic.

It’s more that the usage of the word “woke” is a derogatory term towards any minority group (nowadays, anyway. The term became corrupted over time). So using that unironically might not necessarily reflect well on the person who’s saying it.

 

[Xickin]

RTD is back?! I need to get back into Doctor Who.

It’s more that the usage of the word “woke” is a derogatory term towards any minority group. So using that unironically doesn’t necessarily reflect well on the person who’s saying it.

You hadn't heard? Well now I have to know if you like it based on the opinions stated in this thread.
Yeah, I guess it kind of has become derogatory. Unfortunately it's just a too well-known catch-all term for many to stop using.

 

[BufferAqua]

Since when did "woke" become derogatory?

“By 2020, the term became a sarcastic pejorative among many on the political right in Western countries, targeting various leftist and progressive movements. Woke was seen as offensive by commentators who felt it disparaged advocates of identity and race-related ideologies.”

From Wikipedia. That said, this is pretty recent, and you probably weren’t aware of it.

 

[Xickin]

So what would we call it? An over-saturation of social awareness?

 

[WaltK]

Anyway, this focus the show is taking on stuff like trans and non-binary characters fits rather well into my definition of "a natural evolution of 00s RTD DW", aka, the first era to put a larger focus on gay characters.

 

[BufferAqua]

So what would we call it? An over-saturation of social awareness?

I don’t see how it’s any of that though. Call me out for not seeing the new episodes themselves, but incorporating a non-binary character into the narrative is something I’d expect modern Doctor Who to do.

 

[Xickin]

Anyway, this focus the show is taking on stuff like trans and non-binary characters fits rather well into my definition of "a natural evolution of 00s RTD DW", aka, the first era to put a larger focus on gay characters.

But the problem is that there's no nuance, and that doesn't make for good writing. Regardless, my "woke" point wasn't the only critique; also I still don't think you've really explained why you are attracted to the new series.

I don’t see how it’s any of that though. Call me out for not seeing the new episodes themselves, but incorporating a non-binary character into the narrative is something I’d expect modern Doctor Who to do.

Then what?
It has nothing to do with incorporating a non-binary character. No spoilers, but it happens right near the end - maybe 2/3?

 

[BufferAqua]

I guess I’ll reserve my take until I see it. Either way, glad to have RTD back. Just realized this is sort of old news, but the 12th and 13th Doctors never really grabbed me.

Also, my bad for misinterpreting how you used woke, by the way. As mentioned earlier, people use it as a sarcastic way to dismiss minorities, but it seems you weren’t trying to use it in a harmful way. Well, I’m not sure how you were trying to use it, but it seems I misunderstood it.

 

[WaltK]

But the problem is that there's no nuance, and that doesn't make for good writing. Regardless, my "woke" point wasn't the only critique; also I still don't think you've really explained why you are attracted to the new series.

I don't know how I can explain it more efficiently than in my original response.

I think this is very much one of these situations where we agree to disagree.

 

[Xickin]

I don't know how I can explain it more efficiently than in my original response.

I think this is very much one of these situations where we agree to disagree.

Okay, so what I mean is "What do you actually like about it?" the plots of the episodes, the Doctor's new personality, Ruby as a companion, other personal favourite moments etc.

 

[WaltK]

Okay, so what I mean is "What do you actually like about it?" the plots of the episodes, the Doctor's new personality, Ruby as a companion, other personal favourite moments etc.

Wild Blue Yonder (the second Tennant special) was an especially great ep with excellent SFX and character moments. And it was lovely to see Bernard Cribbins one last time before his death.

Neil Patrick Harris absolutely slayed as the Toymaker. His little lip-synch musical number when he arrived at UNIT was positively bonkers. The Doctors' choice of the final game between them being a simple game of catch is also a stroke of genius when you realise it's basically the Doctor purposely dumbing himself down that he can't risk tripping over his own cleverness in trying to outwit the Toymaker in a mind game.

And yes, I really enjoy Ncuti Gatwa as the Doctor. I love his charisma, and how just so unapologetically queer he is. And his dramatic performances are fantastic. His performances in "Boom" and the end of "Dot and Bubble" are particular highlights.

"73 Yards" is a Doctor-lite episode that really lets Millie Gibson shine as Ruby (with an, admittedly, rather confusing ending).

I'm surprised and perplexed by your report that someone you knew watched the Goblin song and that it "ruined their day". That's an awfully strong reaction to the show just being unapologetically fun and camp.

I imagine you wouldn't be a fan of "The Devil's Chord" for that same reason, which is a shame because Jinkx Monsoon is phenomenally entertaining to watch as Maestro.

I have more to say but, wouldn't you know it, the season finale has just this second dropped on streaming, so I'm gonna go watch.

 

[WaltK]

And wouldn't you know it, the season finale was actually kind of a letdown.

Too many ill-defined plot points, and not the kind that they're clearly intending to explain later.

Spoiler Show

And the overall resolution with Ruby's mum moving at positively whiplash-inducing speed in the final ten or so minutes.

 

[PikaPal]

Welp, seems like it's one of those kind of finales where it's ambitious but a little too ambitious which seems to be a thing with some of the finale episodes.

I'm not the biggest Who fan (or at least not a big super fan) but I've recently been getting into some of the Target novelisations of the older stories. I think I'm nearly done with The Edge of Destruction which I thought was an average episode but really works so well in book form.

 

[PikaPal]

Finally finished the novelisation of The Edge of Destruction. Really great stuff from Nigel Robinson that helps to expand what was a pretty lacking two-parter and makes things much more stranger and unusual and the ending's still as nice as it was on screen.

Did the other two a while ago - An Unearthly Child (Terrance Dicks) and the first Doctor Who novel Doctor Who and the Daleks (David Whitaker). An Unearthly Child's a decent book though a little repetitive with the cavemen stuff and the Daleks book is iconic for a reason. Also interestingly different as it's told from Ian's point of view.