The Whole Enchilada about Namine

[starry_eyed_hero]

I'm quite aware that not everything said in the game has a dark, deep meaning. But, somethings do. I mean, we are talking about Square Enix here. Also keep in mind that Kairi and Namine have the same base sprite, the same stance, and their good luck charms are VERY similar.

Somethings do have dark deep meanings, but saying that this does is just goin overboard with it. Also, Vexen and Marluxia had the same base sprite(not very similar, but just as similar as Namine's is to Kairi's) does that mean that Marluxia was a shadow of Vexen?

Also, all of the organization members, except for Lexaeus have the same stance, does that make them all shadows of each other?

Also, what do you mean "their" good luck charms? I dont know if you paid attention to the story or not, but if you did then you would know that Namine never really had a good luck charm. The good luck charm Sora was holding the whole time was Kairi's, his memories just made it look different in his head. Also, the same thing happened with the Riku replica. His good luck charm wasn't real either, it was actually just the Destiny Islands card, but his memories made it look like a good luck charm.

 

[DarrcEnigma]

and their good luck charms are VERY similar.

Naminé doesn't have a good luck charm. She manipulated Sora's memory of the Oathkeeper to a point where he thought she gave it to him, and not Kairi. Riku Replica's "good luck charm" wasn't a charm at all -- I'm pretty sure (but not positive; I've only played through once) it was a World Card. The design of it was that of Kairi's Oathkeeper, but that was just done by her to cause more conflict in Sora's mind. As for the character models, eh... "imitation" still applies; plus the fact that it's a GBA game and character models aren't nearly as detailed. Still reasonable, though.

... I'm not so sure Mario and Wario are the best examples to use. But whatever.

 

[l_neiman]

First off: DarrcEnigma, that post was a lot better than the first one where you were claiming all those things, because now you're actually backing up a lot of those claims. Thanks, since it made a lot of good points. Please keep up that level of explanation in future.

In addition to this, Riku is seen wearing one upon exiting Castle Oblivion, implying that he is, in fact, a shell.

So does that mean that Mickey is also a shell, since he's wearing an "Enigma Coat" too?

As for the whole "literal vs. figurative" debate that's going on over what Naiminé said about being Kairi's shadow, I really don't think starry_eyed_hero has any more reason to claim what he does than chaoschao... We know that KH is heavily based on the idea of the multiple parts of one same being: the heart, the soul, the body, just as DarrcEnigma was saying in his long post. Please don't claim to be stating fact, because you're not. You are stating a perfectly valid opinion, but you can't claim to know 100% that she was not being literal precisely because KH deals with differents parts of the same being, so given the importance of this "tripartite theory of being" it's not at all ludicrous to believe that she could be saying it literally.

At any rate, this isn't something that can be settled before getting more info on the game, so please stop blowing up when someone says that. You may have said the same thing 20 or 30 times on the messageboards, but that doesn't mean you're right, because you're not, no more than chaoschao or I am.

 

[starry_eyed_hero]

We know that KH is heavily based on the idea of the multiple parts of one same being: the heart, the soul, the body

What are you talking about? No we dont. In the game, they've talked a lot about hearts, a lil bit about bodies, and almost nothing about souls.

 

[DarrcEnigma]

So does that mean that Mickey is also a shell, since he's wearing an "Enigma Coat" too?

I want to say "yes," but I am currently unable to do so, mainly because King Mickey is one of the characters that we know little about. He appeared to Riku as a card (of all things...) during Reverse/Rebirth, but after that they never really explained much about Mickey. Based upon the facts that he was shown in the Realm of Darkness in the original game, has never summoned his Keyblade, and he's wearing the enigma coat, it does appear that he is. Though until we get some more information on him, I'm personally avoiding most conversations involving him. I just don't feel that comfortable with the way Reverse/Rebirth left things...

What are you talking about? No we dont. In the game, they've talked a lot about hearts, a lil bit about bodies, and almost nothing about souls.

It's a gradual process. The series is essentially the tale of light and darkness (and the areas in between, don't forget), and their relation to the parts of a being. Kingdom Hearts told the tale of hearts, and used the Ansem Report to help us understand the Heartless. Chain of Memories was the tale of hearts and bodies. It finished telling us about hearts (mainly in the area of memories), and introduced us to the bodies to a certain extent. Kingdom Hearts II is the tale of bodies, and Ansem's second report should reveal to us just what the "Nobody" and/or "Dusk" are. As for souls, that has to wait for now, I suppose. They've been mentioned twice, though:

- Spirits, in some way, are connected to the Summon Gems. I won't speculate on anything, simply because I don't have enough to work with. However if you want to re-read it for yourself, it's the scene that takes place when you give your first Summon Gem to the Fairy Godmother. She mentions something about only being able to bring back the spirit.
- Ansem's extra report pages from Final Mix. I'm sure you've all but memorized those by now.

Just hold your horses, they'll get around to revealing everything soon enough.

 

[l_neiman]

What are you talking about? No we dont. In the game, they've talked a lot about hearts, a lil bit about bodies, and almost nothing about souls.

starry_eyed_hero: please go read the Ansem Reports before saying things like this... Seriously. You can read them all here: http://www.geocities.com/deeplydrivn/ansem.html . If you haven't read Reports 11-13 then I suggest you do so, since they were only in Final Mix, and that might help explain why you're disagreeing with my claim, that was also just now backed up by DarrcEnigma.

Based upon the facts that he was shown in the Realm of Darkness in the original game, has never summoned his Keyblade, and he's wearing the enigma coat, it does appear that he is.

A good point. Yet we do see him wielding his keyblade in the game footage we've seen from KH2, and judging by its colors it looks to be the opposite of Sora's original keyblade (Mickey's has a silver hilt and a golden blade). How should we interpret this?

 

[chaoschao]

You're right. Namine didn't have a 'real' good luck charm. She made it off of the Oathkeeper. But Sora said that even if it was fake, he still had his promise. So my point kinda stands.

Look, I know my theory isn't that believable, but it could work. I think we should change subject to avoid more anger or arguements. Or not. Either way.

 

[l_neiman]

What exactly was your theory? I've lost track at this point...

 

[chaoschao]

Don't forget about the theory that many people I've talked to have, where in KH2 there are basically "light" and "dark" versions of everyone.

For example:
Sora (Dark) BHK (Light)
Riku (Dark) Blindfolded Riku (Purified, or light)
Kairi (Light?) Namine (Dark?)

So Namine could be the Dark "shadow" of Kairi. That's what I thought, at least.

Back at the top of page 2...How, two pages of talking about me!

 

[DarrcEnigma]

A good point. Yet we do see him wielding his keyblade in the game footage we've seen from KH2, and judging by its colors it looks to be the opposite of Sora's original keyblade (Mickey's has a silver hilt and a golden blade). How should we interpret this?

I have no way of explaining how King Mickey regained his Keyblade unless you drag Deep Dive into the mix and use it as a base -- thus turning the BHK into some sort of "delivery boy." That implies a lot of things in itself, though. Mainly that DWU is BHK, which is widly believed to begin with.

As far as the colors go, that's really up to you how you want to take it. (Everyone seems to have a different idea.) Personally, I tend to like the "fours" theory. That is, the theory stating that each of the Keyblades comes from a different "Realm." The colors could signify that the two Keyblades come from opposing Realms ("Present" and "In-Between"), much like BHK's two Keyblades appear to. It should also be noted that there's also a real life statue that has Sora holding both Kingdom Keys -- similar to the BHK.

I think we should change subject to avoid more anger or arguements. Or not. Either way.

Aside from the fact that we're no longer talking about Naminé, there's no need to stop talking about this, really. Just don't get too personally involved, remember that you can be wrong, and it's all good, eh?

 

[l_neiman]

chaoschao: I personally see some good things in your theory, though, as some people have said (I believe it was DarrcEnigma), I don't know that I would classify Sora as "Dark", despite the fact that he was briefly a Heartless, since he is always presented as the champion of light (especially in Chain of Memories, where he is actually called that, I believe, and Riku is referred to as the dark). Time will tell, I guess.

The rest of the classifications I think I can agree to in principle, though I think there will probably be more to it than simple light vs. dark.

I have no way of explaining how King Mickey regained his Keyblade unless you drag Deep Dive into the mix and use it as a base -- thus turning the BHK into some sort of "delivery boy."

I see that you say "regained" his Keyblade... Was it ever lost, at some point? He certainly had it at the end of KH, since he uses it to seal the door to Kingdom Hearts from the inside, while Sora uses his Keyblade to seal it from the outside. When exactly did he lose it?

 

[chaoschao]

I believe that he is talking about COM because Mickey uses a card when Riku uses him (if I'm not mistaken) and not a keyblade. This would mean he doesn't have it, or doesn't want to, which reall doesn't make sense.

 

[l_neiman]

I don't know if it's that significant that he doesn't use his Keyblade... They might've just had him hold up a card since he is healing you at the same time that he is damaging/stunning the enemies, and it might've been harder to show both those things together if he is slashing away with his Keyblade...

Was there some other reason to believe that his Keyblade is gone? Since it's an issue that I never remember being addressed in COM (i.e.- "Your Majesty, what happened to your Keyblade?" or something similar), and given that we see Mickey with his Keyblade in the KH2 footage, I'm inclined to believe that it's not a big deal that he didn't use it during Reverse Rebirth...

 

[DarrcEnigma]

I see that you say "regained" his Keyblade... Was it ever lost, at some point? He certainly had it at the end of KH, since he uses it to seal the door to Kingdom Hearts from the inside, while Sora uses his Keyblade to seal it from the outside. When exactly did he lose it?

Yes, chaoschao is right -- I'm refering to King Mickey not having it during Reverse/Rebirth. I know Chain of Memories wasn't pieced together until after Kingdom Hearts II was already in developement, but forgetting to add his Keyblade is a bit extreme. Hence, I believe "he" lost it. Mickey's heart might still have it in the Realm of Darkness though, I guess -- assuming the Mickey from R/R was his Shell.

Since it's an issue that I never remember being addressed in COM (i.e.- "Your Majesty, what happened to your Keyblade?" or something similar),

They wouldn't even have to question it, would they? Riku and Mickey would have to have known that he could summon his Keyblade if needed, so the fact that he wasn't carrying it with him likely wouldn't have been an issue. Remember that Riku wanted to fight alone -- Mickey was just healing him when he got weak. When you think of it like that, plus take into account that at least Riku knew nothing of "parts," he probably wouldn't have been worried about it until he couldn't summon it. But, that's merely speculation.

 

[l_neiman]

They wouldn't even have to question it, would they? Riku and Mickey would have to have known that he could summon his Keyblade if needed, so the fact that he wasn't carrying it with him likely wouldn't have been an issue. Remember that Riku wanted to fight alone -- Mickey was just healing him when he got weak.

That's the way I was looking at it, anyway, which is why it didn't strike me as odd that Mickey didn't use his Keyblade during Reverse Rebirth... I guess both interpretations make sense.

 

[x_Dark_Riku_x]

Namine was hired as a young witch to slowly reconstruct sora's memories into forgetting everything about Kairi and focusing on her that she was the one who gave him the charm.....afterwords she apologized because she knew what she was doing was wrong and she reconstructed soras memories back....while she did that all the memories about castle oblivion were gone....

 

[chaoschao]

She wasn't hired, she was held there against her will. And thank you for re-capping her role in COM, but I hope that we know it by now.

And I think that DarrcEnigma is right. He didn't need it if only for healing. But I still don't think he LOST it. Just didn't need it.

 

[chaoschao]

Please don't double post. The posts are gone because of a server switch. This is in MANY topics. Try the information desk.

 

[l_neiman]

And I think that DarrcEnigma is right. He didn't need it if only for healing. But I still don't think he LOST it. Just didn't need it.

Ditto! It's like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings, to use a certainly-familiar analogy: he has tremendous power, but mostly chooses not to use it and just whacks orcs over the head with his staff instead, !

 

[Cael]

Okay.....One thing is that ASAS and Deep Dive is NOT valid. It's been 3 or more years since they made it. That was just their idea of KH2 not the actual. Plus ideas change and they werent making KH2 when they made that. No blindfolded Riku, no BHK in a cloak, no Kairi that looks like that, no GEU, no advanced town thats in the dark, no dark beach. Now if it was still valid we would have seen these already in at least some screen shot or trailer. Same goes for the 13 points. Nothing you have can back it up. So move on and forget it. And unless you have some proof that they are still using it besides Mickey and Riku in a coat then go ahead and prove me wrong.