The treatment of women in this series



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Zettaflare

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I was willing to give Nomura the benefit of the doubt and believeHe would give Sokai a good resolution. But as Kirabook mentioned Sora barely thought of her the entire game. There were plenty of opportunities for Sora to reflect on Kairi given the romantic moments between Rapunzel x Eugene and Will x Elizabeth. Yet for some reason it didnt occur to Nomura to take advantage on them to make Sokai more believable.


Honestly I felt more for Repliku x Namine
 

DarkosOverlord

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I mean, I liked a few moments here and there. Maybe it's me trying to get something out of it at all cost, but I've found the scenes they had nice in which they seemed to already take their relationship for granted and as something that was happening. It felt like they were less to (further) "establish" SoKai, and more Sora and Kairi being like "Okay, we're a thing, you have me and I have you, now what do we do from here." It's true Sora could've thought of her more than... zero during the adventure (I think they kinda tried to catch up on that at one point during the final segment when Kairi saves him), but I also can appreciate if this is them knowing the other one is there for them without having to confirm it any time something romantic happens.

Of course I wanted more (I'll always want more) and it could've been better and more natural, and the ending almost shatters whatever pleasure I got from it, but if I'm not wrong and this was the team trying a more "mature" approach I kinda appreciated it.
 

kirabook

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Fatal Mode

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My girl Kairi was holding her own until Xemnas showed up. To be fair he crushed Axel too.
 

Face My Fears

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I think the solution to this is simple: DLC featuring Kairi and Axel going to 2 Disney worlds as their final training (you play as Kairi with Axel in the party). We get to see Kairi in the lead and making new friends with the Disney characters. This will also let us get some cutscenes with Aqua/Ven together after being saved and maybe have Kairi interact with Riku and Aqua (all of this is before the last battle). The DLC can start with the fight between Kairi and Axel (where she wins).

I really think that the issue is that there are just too many characters and too many things that needed to be covered in KH3. Aqua losing to Vanitas wasn't that bad as she literally just got out of suffering in the realm of darkness for ten years and was recently possessed and in a huge fight with Sora. Aqua beat Vanitas, but then he took advantage of her current state.
 

AdrianXXII

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Tartarus

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*TwilightNight*

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Honestly I felt more for Repliku x Namine
Valid.

In fact, Sora's Nobody (Roxas) had more substance with Naminé in this game than the canon couple and that just floors me because they didn't even interact physically. I say this because Roxas was mentioned along with Naminé as a unit throughout the game, you get a cut scene where Roxas appears briefly and through Sora thinks of Naminé as he just stares at the Old Mansion's window (reminiscent of what they did with Sora and Kairi in KH2, actually), wherein Sora looks down dejectedly, and to finalize the context OF said scene, Sora states that Roxas misses her.

Why can't Sora be like, wow, Kairi would have loved these flowers when in Corona, or Anna/Elsa reminded him of her, or...other facets that would have added to the scenes they did have together. Even the paopu sharing came off awkward. Kairi...I just don't know. Her treatment has been the worst, KH2 was better to her than KH3. You can tell by the female characters getting sidelined that this was constructed by two middle aged Japanese men.
 

SerDuncan

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Mmmmm I see what you're saying, but I honestly think Kairi was WORSE because of her supposed importance. It's like you're super hyped up to go to a fancy 5 star restaurant, the chef says it's the best food in the world. You're nervous at first cause he used to cook at a Mcdonalds, but the place looks nice and he says it's gonna be different this time. But you get there, you sit down, and he serves you McDonald's hamburgers. Even though it's the same as before, you're gonna be more upset cause the Chef effectively lied, and the whole "fancy restaurant/keyblade wielder" aesthetic was just for show. It doesn't actually change anything.

Like other people are saying, Kairi had the same damsel in distress plot as before, except now, out of nowhere, Sora is in love with her! Something he doesn't mention, or talk about, pretty much at all in the game except for when it becomes relevant.
 

SuperSaiyanSora

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DarkosOverlord

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Oh, I also don't think Nomura is a straight up sexist, just... mh, thinking of the right word... "unfit" to properly deliver something attuned to the audience's expectations on this front?
This whole issue is just like pretty much all else that I didn't like about the game: I'm not MAD, I'm just sad some aspects turned out this disappointing. I'm sure they tried when they made the game.
 

Tartarus

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Like other people are saying, Kairi had the same damsel in distress plot as before, except now, out of nowhere, Sora is in love with her! Something he doesn't mention, or talk about, pretty much at all in the game except for when it becomes relevant.
KH3 was more vague on the SoKai front than I expected, personally, more vague than in 2 and 1. In KH1, it was pretty blatant that the protagonist and the girl would be put together because of course. KH2 was a mixed bag, but you still have the scene of him thinking about dancing with Kairi in Halloween Town. Maybe it's just me, but Kairi's insistence on sharing the paopus so they won't be separated again and the "Why her?!" both tie into what Sora says to Mickey in the ending scene about how everything started back when she was lost the first time. Basically she's been put through the ringer at this point; why did it have to be her who is separated from the group again? The paopu scene was just not romantic at all to me, although maybe on Kairi's part it was? Sora looks taken aback and seemed more concerned by Riku's psychotic break on the beach.

As for the first part of your post about the McDonalds chef, I lol'ed. I understand why Kairi being built up to do more than she did after only to repeat the past just makes it worse for her fans
.
 

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KH3 was more vague on the SoKai front than I expected, personally, more vague than in 2 and 1. In KH1, it was pretty blatant that the protagonist and the girl would be put together because of course. KH2 was a mixed bag, but you still have the scene of him thinking about dancing with Kairi in Halloween Town. Maybe it's just me, but Kairi's insistence on sharing the paopus so they won't be separated again and the "Why her?!" both tie into what Sora says to Mickey in the ending scene about how everything started back when she was lost the first time. Basically she's been put through the ringer at this point; why did it have to be her who is separated from the group again? The paopu scene was just not romantic at all to me, although maybe on Kairi's part it was? Sora looks taken aback and seemed more concerned by Riku's psychotic break on the beach.

As for the first part of your post about the McDonalds chef, I lol'ed. I understand why Kairi being built up to do more than she did after only to repeat the past just makes it worse for her fans
.
That thing he says wasn’t even true because it was Riku that caused their journey to begin, not Kairi. Riku always wanted to leave the Islands, even before Kairi arrived. The rest, of course, was true that it wasn’t fair that Kairi kept getting the short-end of the stick.
 

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CutiePique

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That thing he says wasn’t even true because it was Riku that caused their journey to begin, not Kairi. Riku always wanted to leave the Islands, even before Kairi arrived. The rest, of course, was true that it wasn’t fair that Kairi kept getting the short-end of the stick.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall Riku in KH1 attributing Kairi as the reason he'd had deeper thoughts about other worlds which really inspired him to journey for realsies? So even if Riku had the desire to leave the Islands, it could be seen as more of a kid's outlandish dreams ("I'm gonna RULE the WORLD!" "That's nice, sweetie.") that might get grown out of or stomped out of them... except that Kairi's presence served as a catalyst for him to push forward with those dreams?

...Going for an Obi Wan "What I said was true(tm)... from a certain point of view" schtick here. orz


[/feels like she should have something better to contribute to a thread like this, but just doesn't]
 

Tartarus

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I know others don't see it that way, but to me Aqua saved Ventus. Sora only released his heart; Aqua is the one who stopped Vanitas until he could revive.

That thing he says wasn’t even true because it was Riku that caused their journey to begin, not Kairi. Riku always wanted to leave the Islands, even before Kairi arrived. The rest, of course, was true that it wasn’t fair that Kairi kept getting the short-end of the stick.
Oh, true. :p I guess thinking about it for Sora in particular, he only started to explore worlds with SDG to save both Kairi and Riku, although Sora and Riku both wanted to go on adventures before Kairi. The way he says it doesn't bother me too much because Riku left DI by choice unharmed, whereas Kairi lost her heart as soon as the story began.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I know others don't see it that way, but to me Aqua saved Ventus. Sora only released his heart; Aqua is the one who stopped Vanitas until he could revive.
Actually, I think it was clearly a joint effort where both main factors couldn't have succeeded without the other. In order to save Ventus both Aqua and Sora were needed. Without Sora, Aqua could have kept Vanitas at bay until all her strength was spent (or she kills him) but she could never wake Ventus up by herself. Without Aqua, Sora would never even be able to reach Ven as even Vanitas admits that no one could find Ventus, him included, until Aqua shows the way. Nonetheless Aqua was clearly buying time and had the plot not dictated her to stupidly jump into a flying projectile I'm sure she would have been able to at least fight Vanitas to a standstill/draw even in her weakened state.

So instead of forcibly being damselt she could have gone through that fight with dignity and when Sora is finally done and Ventus awakens that would break the stalemate and Aqua could chase Vanitas off with assistance from Ven.
Maybe even via having another boss fight with a powered up Vanitas where Ven serves as Aqua's party member.
 

ImVentus

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Eh, to me Kairi's character has been regressing.

KH1, girl loses her heart, unconsciously gets stolen, follows on Riku's warning and uses her brains to at least escape, protects Sora from shadows, then remains irrelevant.

KH2 set up a welcoming side of rebellion & dedication, but lacks in the proactiveness during the 3rd act. However I like how she wasn't waiting around for something to happen. she had a goal and despite running into obstacles, her spirit never gave in. Wasn't it hardcore enough that she jumped from a balustrade without any damage. Oh yeah, the scene that follows treated her like ditzy bee. But at least aside from a few portions of rushed or lazy writing, she was treated as character that was taking steps into a better direction that felt more mature. Many disagree, but what gives. I liked her better here.

And then KH3 happened, ho ho, the girl got sliced! Her strength this time around was her words of speech.
"Let me keep you safe"
1 day later
. Standing paralyzed like a deer in the headlights, saved by Sora
. Swept away in a demon tower
. Barely stands a chance against Xion. Watch the scene again, and you'll see that Kairi was dodging and not attempting to fight.
. Oh oh! kidnapped again. But my left hand is still open, and so is my legs. Shouldn't I kick him or at least use my free hand to reach or summon for my key? No okay just gonna let the writing treat me like an object. I'm sorry, but did you really do any training girl?
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No surprise though. After DDD I wouldn't expect as much.
And what happened to Aqua's character in 3?
 
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Tartarus

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Actually, I think it was clearly a joint effort where both main factors couldn't have succeeded without the other. In order to save Ventus both Aqua and Sora were needed. Without Sora, Aqua could have kept Vanitas at bay until all her strength was spent (or she kills him) but she could never wake Ventus up by herself. Without Aqua, Sora would never even be able to reach Ven as even Vanitas admits that no one could find Ventus, him included, until Aqua shows the way. Nonetheless Aqua was clearly buying time and had the plot not dictated her to stupidly jump into a flying projectile I'm sure she would have been able to at least fight Vanitas to a standstill/draw even in her weakened state.

So instead of forcibly being damselt she could have gone through that fight with dignity and when Sora is finally done and Ventus awakens that would break the stalemate and Aqua could chase Vanitas off with assistance from Ven.
Maybe even via having another boss fight with a powered up Vanitas where Ven serves as Aqua's party member.
Isn't the fact that Aqua fights Vanitas what awakens Ventus though? Ventus' heart reacted to her being in possible danger, similar to the way Roxas' heart is triggered by the Old Mansion earlier in the game. Ventus had to tell Sora what to do in the moment because Sora didn't understand the power of waking. Ventus coming in with a final shot to chase off Vanitas was mostly for dramatic effect + Vanitas has always been Ven's antagonist, but Aqua choosing to fight alone to save Ventus rather than take Sora's help was what started the dominoes going.

True, Nomura could've had Aqua hold Vanitas at stalemate rather than being in real danger. Still, I had a positive impression of Aqua at the end of that scene.
 

kirabook

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