The treatment of women in this series



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Onion Knight

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There is no obligation to engage or read anything stated here.
There kinda is. Reading stuff like this makes me doubt my beliefs, and I seriously want to figure out whether I should hold on to them or not.

But the problem is, the truth is pretty much unattainable. Everyone believes in whatever they want to, so you can only guess whether they defend their believes so eagerly because they're ACTUALLY right, or simply due to their inability to face reality. And I can't simply discard my beliefs too, even if I'm in a minority, because there is always a chance that I was right all along. So the only thing I can do is to place all of my bets on what I think is right, I simply have no choice.

Subjectivity is the enemy of truth. It turns life into a gamble. I hate it, but I have to roll with it anyway. But that still doesn't mean I'm not curious about my righteousness though.
 

Audo

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You know there are entire fields of study about the very real and empirical existences of sexism, racism, homophobia, etc? It's not really a matter of opinion or subjectivity. These things exist, they are proven to exist, and they are proven to have negative effects on people, society, culture, etc in both obvious and insidious, structural ways. It is easy to know what is right and what is wrong if your driving compass is empathy and you listen, not talk over, the people who experience oppression and have lived experience in these areas instead of trying to shut them down because you're scared what you have been lead to believe might be wrong.

You don't need to be an active participant in this discussion. It startles you and that's fine, but coming in here just to try to shut people up isn't helping anyone. Listen to the people who are discussing how this impacts them, the kinds of messages it can impart, etc, and reflect on your own. Feel free to ask questions, but running around saying everyone should shut up and that feminism is a cancer is doing no favours to anyone, least of all you.
 

Onion Knight

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It is easy to know what is right and what is wrong if your driving compass is empathy and you listen, not talk over, the people who experience oppression and have lived experience in these areas instead of trying to shut them down because you're scared what you have been lead to believe might be wrong.
But there is no oppression though. Feminism is baseless envy over men's position in society, and feminists are females who don't realize how good they're having it just because they are females.

In a lot of countries, men are forced to join the military the moment they hit the age of consent.

Men carry most of the most dangerous jobs on the world, as a result of females being the main source of humanity's reproduction.

Men have to prove to society that they are worthy of being called men (it's called masculinity). Females may not be able to cook, clean, look after children and no one would still doubt their femininity. However, if a man shows a sign of weakness, he get picked on by othes for not being manly enough.

Feminists are the ones who lack empathy. THEY are the ones who talk over instead of willing to listen. They have a couple of individual males pick on them, and then blame the entire society for all their troubles. FEMINISM IS BASELESS ENVY.
 

SerDuncan

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I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I don't think... anyone reading this thread does. You claim that you'd like to change your mind if proven wrong, but when presented with evidence, you provide a baseless argument supported by age-old sexism. As basis for your statements you make general claims about women not realizing how good they have it (which sounds like you're jealous of them, not the other way around), men forced to join the military... without providing any countries as evidence, and then stating that men carry most of the most dangerous jobs in the world, completing ignoring the women in the military, the workforce, as firefighters, doctors who deal with deadly diseases, high ranking potential assassination targets in political figures, the list goes on and on.

I wish we could have a serious discussion on this topic, but it seems as though you've already made up your mind. You've made all women the enemy.
 

Onion Knight

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You've made all women the enemy.
That's a stretch. My only enemy is feminism, not women themselves. And you still completely missed my point: society is more inclined towards women than men when it comes to priviledge, but feminists feel like it's the other way around simply because of the individual guys being mean to the them. And if you want an example of countries where men are forced to join the military - Russian Federation. Out there, it's a law that when a guy turns 18 they must join the military.
 

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It baffles me that this is still going on. Not the thread itself: I think that's a very good discussion that we need to have as a fandom, specially going forward in the franchise. But the whole "feeding the asshole who turned a discussion about female representation in Kingdom Hearts into "feminism is bad and evil and should no be taken seriously".
I've been looking into this thread since it began because I wanted to talk about it but I was unconfortable to talk about the actual discussion because it's now out of control and hard to engage back into it without having to deal with all of this.

Would be nice If we could maybe go back to the main topic at hand here or just lock this thread and restart in a new one.
 

SerDuncan

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It baffles me that this is still going on. Not the thread itself: I think that's a very good discussion that we need to have as a fandom, specially going forward in the franchise. But the whole "feeding the asshole who turned a discussion about female representation in Kingdom Hearts into "feminism is bad and evil and should no be taken seriously".
I've been looking into this thread since it began because I wanted to talk about it but I was unconfortable to talk about the actual discussion because it's now out of control and hard to engage back into it without having to deal with all of this.

Would be nice If we could maybe go back to the main topic at hand here or just lock this thread and restart in a new one.
I'm sorry, that one's on me. I apologize, I'm new to forum discussion. I really should have known better.
 

MATGSY

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I almost ran to this thread after Aqua's "time to shine" but stuck it out until the end of the game & good LORD! While we're on the topic:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 
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Onion Knight

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But the whole "feeding the asshole who turned a discussion about female representation in Kingdom Hearts into "feminism is bad and evil and should no be taken seriously".
Is there really a difference between the two? They may politely ask for more female representation, but what thet actually mean is that "women should be strong and independent, it's weak for a woman to rely on a man and the romantic subplots hinder their true potential". Trust me, I know how this works with them.
 

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To like Kairi and hope that she or other female characters get equal opportunities is to suffer.
At this point is pretty clear that we won't get her time to shine unless nearly all of the current writing team gets replaced.

I am so displeased about this, and quoting an acquaintance of mine, it's even worse due to how much they've hyped her coming back in action by stressing the fact that she has a Keyblade and was training all this time.
I did not endure all these years of "hurr durr every1 gets a Keyblade" talk only for my girl to be benched again.
 

Onion Knight

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To like Kairi and hope that she or other female characters get equal opportunities is to suffer.
At this point is pretty clear that we won't get her time to shine unless nearly all of the current writing team gets replaced.

I am so displeased about this, and quoting an acquaintance of mine, it's even worse due to how much they've hyped her coming back in action by stressing the fact that she has a Keyblade and was training all this time.
I did not endure all these years of "hurr durr every1 gets a Keyblade" talk only for my girl to be benched again.
Spoiler Spoiler Show
 
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Aws

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To like Kairi and hope that she or other female characters get equal opportunities is to suffer.
At this point is pretty clear that we won't get her time to shine unless nearly all of the current writing team gets replaced.

I am so displeased about this, and quoting an acquaintance of mine, it's even worse due to how much they've hyped her coming back in action by stressing the fact that she has a Keyblade and was training all this time.
I did not endure all these years of "hurr durr every1 gets a Keyblade" talk only for my girl to be benched again.
Finally someone said it. Unfortunately for me, I really like Kairi and was quite looking forward to her role in KH3, especially after all the hype that Nomura was building up around her with the DDD secret ending, 0.2, the trailers and the training with Lea.
Spoiler Spoiler Show

Well at least she got more than the 10 minutes of screen time she got in KH2 -shrugs-
 

kirabook

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No. At that point, Sora was suggesting he wouldn't clash with MX to create the final keys. MX wanted Sora to fight so that they would be made.
Fight for what? What did he need to "motivate" Sora for? Upon killing Kairi, he got all of his keys. Am I missing something? Did he NEED Sora to keep fighting him even though all the requirements were met? Xehanort could have caught and killed anyone at that point to get his final key. He could've struck down Sora right then and there and boom, there's his final key.

It just seems weird that upon completing his goal of getting all the keys, they played it off as "Aha! Killing Kairi will motivate Sora! ... Even though I'd prefer Sora go away now because Kingdom Hearts is finally mine!"

In the end, I guess I don't care that Xehanort was still trying to motivate Sora after already completing his goal, but it does bother me that they needlessly killed a character just to make it happen. In a really really stupid way too.
 

Audo

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Fight for what? What did he need to "motivate" Sora for? Upon killing Kairi, he got all of his keys. Am I missing something?
Prior to the moment of killing her, he still needed Sora to clash with him. Once he kills her, Sora, in his rage, runs up to him and strikes at him. This is what created the final needed key to forge the X-Blade. He didn't have them all before that.

Did he NEED Sora to keep fighting him even though all the requirements were met? Xehanort could have caught and killed anyone at that point to get his final key.
Of course. I'm just explaining the logic of the story as it is written. There are obviously many other options they could have went with. But yes, literally anyone could have been captured and it would have motivated Sora because Sora cares about everyone.
 

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Fight for what? What did he need to "motivate" Sora for? Upon killing Kairi, he got all of his keys. Am I missing something? Did he NEED Sora to keep fighting him even though all the requirements were met? Xehanort could have caught and killed anyone at that point to get his final key. He could've struck down Sora right then and there and boom, there's his final key.

It just seems weird that upon completing his goal of getting all the keys, they played it off as "Aha! Killing Kairi will motivate Sora! ... Even though I'd prefer Sora go away now because Kingdom Hearts is finally mine!"

In the end, I guess I don't care that Xehanort was still trying to motivate Sora after already completing his goal, but it does bother me that they needlessly killed a character just to make it happen. In a really really stupid way too.
Similarly Sora even says "Why her?" because she was the one he cared about the most clearly. He could have picked anyone else and Sora wouldn't have cared. From the beginning Sora is the key. He needed it to be Sora and he had to ensure Sora would react.
 

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Just thought I would throw in my two cents here, apologies if this is

First of all, you can't expect every character in a series to share an equal level of power to the protagonist. Especially when it comes to fledgling Keyblade wielders (Kairi and Lea, specifically) they are more likely to "job" to those who are way more experienced in combat (all of the Xehanorts). Expecting Kairi to have gone out and made tremendous strides would seem overly convenient, and you are forgetting that she did do things in the story to make her more than just damsel in distress like in Kingdom Hearts II. Not only did she participate in all of the battles leading up to the battle with her and Lea involved, but she trained the entire time with the sole intent to do as well as possible. Though I wish she had a different story arc, to claim that they didn't treat her fairly is pure wishful thinking. Killing Kairi was also necessary to motivate Sora to actually fight Xehanort to give him his final key, because Sora could have just refused to clash. It was not an unnecessary kill, in my eyes, and it definitely made up for the rather convenient sequences leading up to the Xehanort clash.

Aqua shares a similar issue, where she finally escapes the Realm of Darkness that polluted her mind for years, and escaped an even more powerful darkness that possessed her. It's been seen several times that recovering from the influence of darkness takes time, the most recent and potent example being Sora losing all his powers at the end of Dream Drop Distance. Though it is weird how she just stands there against Terranort in Keyblade Graveyard, you could argue that, like Sora, her hopes were being crushed right in front of her during that scene.

Namine literally had no reason to exist prior to Even making more replicas, so to say that she is unfairly treated is, once again, expecting too much.

Xion is more understandable, though you have to remember the hesitation she will definitely have when being ordered to kill her best friend by someone as powerful as Xemnas.

I think it's ridiculous to say that they are treated unfairly given the circumstances these characters are presented with. If anything, you could argue that every character but Sora is unfairly treated in Kingdom Hearts III, since they all seem to "job" in their own special way. I understand the desire for female characters to be more adequately represented in the games industry, but I don't think that this is the best game to critique that aspect on. There are plenty of other issues with the narrative of Kingdom Hearts III that can be dissected.
 

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But after killing Kairi and getting his final key... I'm asking what he still needed Sora for. Why did Sora need to keep fighting after Xehanort attained all the keys and took over Kingdom Hearts? Wouldn't it be preferable if Sora was then out of his way?

I'm asking if I'm missing something because I don't understand why Sora needed to be motivated after Xehanort already got all of his keys and got Kingdom Hearts. Maybe I should rewatch the scene again, but if this is the route they were going to take and they were really hard set on killing Kairi because he wasn't "motivated enough", then they should've offed her at the very beginning.
 

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Spoiler Spoiler Show


The epic conclusion to Aqua’s journey that we’ve been waiting since 2010 for! Jesus diddlying Christ. What a disaster.

I kind of expected her to just stand around in the background while Sora did everything. But this is even worse, she’s constantly humiliated and embarrassed without a single good heroic moment of her own during the big climax. And this treatment was so terrible it kills my hype for future characters. Why should I give a care about the Mystery Girl and other old world characters coming back? They’ll just stand around in the background and/or get humiliated repeatedly while Sora does all the real work. What’s going to happen in the next saga?! Wowzers, I’m on the edge of my seat with this!! So hyped!!!!
 
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